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That was a false equivalency when they were saying it to begin with.
But yeah, Trump quoting hatred from racist police chiefs during the civil right movement cements the it in stone.
The people saying it are full of it, 100%. They know its a false equivalency and always did.
They have a grievance that lie elsewhere:
They wanted a different candidate
They recognize the imperfections of both candidates
They feel another candidate would have accomplished X better than the candidate we have.
They recognize that racism won't end if Biden is elected (Completely conveniently ignoring that no fucking President could do this)
And they use those reasons to try and justify the lie that they are the same. It was never true, and it was never close. It should be ignored and those people ignored if possible for being dishonest and not discussing these things in good faith.
You wanna sit out and not vote, then do so. But don't lie and say both candidates are the same like a coward. They aren't, they never were.
Edit: And someone needs to slap this entire year with dictionary. Stop using "Gaslight" if you don't know what it means. Calling you out for making a false equivalency is not gaslighting you.
But yeah, Trump quoting hatred from racist police chiefs during the civil right movement cements the it in stone.
The people saying it are full of it, 100%. They know its a false equivalency and always did.
They have a grievance that lie elsewhere:
They wanted a different candidate
They recognize the imperfections of both candidates
They feel another candidate would have accomplished X better than the candidate we have.
They recognize that racism won't end if Biden is elected (Completely conveniently ignoring that no fucking President could do this)
And they use those reasons to try and justify the lie that they are the same. It was never true, and it was never close. It should be ignored and those people ignored if possible for being dishonest and not discussing these things in good faith.
You wanna sit out and not vote, then do so. But don't lie and say both candidates are the same like a coward. They aren't, they never were.
Edit: And someone needs to slap this entire year with dictionary. Stop using "Gaslight" if you don't know what it means. Calling you out for making a false equivalency is not gaslighting you.
I lost some self respect when I casted a vote for Hilary despite what her and her husband did to Haiti (poorest country in the Western hemisphere). I was heartbroken when she lost partly because of who she lost to, progressive policy having to take a seat for the next 4 years, and having lived through the first black president I wanted badly to see the first female president. I compromised and honestly, the complacency from the Obama days bit me in the ass because things weren't really "better" for POC then either.
4 years later the best that the Dems can do is Joe Biden. Lol. It's almost as if this party doesn't actually want to put the effort into getting better due to how out the open Republicans are with their awfulness. So no, I don't think Biden and Trump are equally bad, never did, Trump is awful, but if given the choice on the spot right now... I wouldn't choose either one. Could that change? Possibly. But I'm doubtful.
4 years later the best that the Dems can do is Joe Biden. Lol. It's almost as if this party doesn't actually want to put the effort into getting better due to how out the open Republicans are with their awfulness. So no, I don't think Biden and Trump are equally bad, never did, Trump is awful, but if given the choice on the spot right now... I wouldn't choose either one. Could that change? Possibly. But I'm doubtful.
Yes, America has a history with racism. However, Trump sticks out as a relatively sore thumb in a modern America in spite of him being the embodiment of everything wrong with it.
Biden in particular addressed this earlier today. Making sure Trump doesn't get reelected most likely won't be treated as a band aid solution to racism. These four years were unforgettable. Trump not getting re-elected won't be a cure all for racism either. Making sure he's out of office is only one step of the process.
Why do I post in these political threads 🧵 not to get banned for having a different opinion.....
to me I do not think he is as bad as Trump but the caviate I Have with him is I feel he much like trump is just going to be a puppet to the Democratic Party and we will see no real change come from him.... I mean come on the guy said " if you are black and don't vote for me you are not really black " or something to that degree.
to me I do not think he is as bad as Trump but the caviate I Have with him is I feel he much like trump is just going to be a puppet to the Democratic Party and we will see no real change come from him.... I mean come on the guy said " if you are black and don't vote for me you are not really black " or something to that degree.
Joe Biden is nowhere near as bad as Trump. I don't know what rational person is expressing this thought. That doesn't mean he's ideal either though. People are allowed to voice their dissatisfaction with the Dems candidate.
Biden is like getting punched in the gut by a NARP while Trump is like getting kicked in the nuts by an MMA fighter on PCP.
They both suck but I don't know who in their right mind is picking Trump.
Biden is like getting punched in the gut by a NARP while Trump is like getting kicked in the nuts by an MMA fighter on PCP.
They both suck but I don't know who in their right mind is picking Trump.
See this I can deal with. I don't have a problem with people criticizing Joe Biden, he deserves it. His history deserves it. In my mind is crosses a line though when your criticism includes a lie. People DO say they are the same; this isn't hyperbole, they do still try and say this. Calling it out is fair game IMO. I just hate when calling out the lie gets treated as "trying to keep Biden from criticism" as if we aren't going to get 4 years of that anyway if he's elected. But if your compass is so broken that you see Biden and Trump as the same thing it invalidates the entirety of your opinion on anything else, because if you cant see the gulf there, who the hell cares about your opinion on "What happened under Obama"?
You don't see it said as much anymore because a lot of that primary frustration has simmered down and the position becomes increasingly untenable with literally each passing day, but the sentiment is still here. It's obvious in the "Trump is like bad thing x, but Biden is like less bad thing y" posts. They're crafted for plausible deniability.
Again, the OP is not "why do so many people here say Biden is just as bad as Trump," it's "what's the thinking behind saying Biden is just as bad as Trump."
Again, the OP is not "why do so many people here say Biden is just as bad as Trump," it's "what's the thinking behind saying Biden is just as bad as Trump."
I think, the way I've come to view this situation over the last couple of months especially is this:
I agree with you that Biden doesn't seem like a candidate that's going to enact real change, so from that standpoint, voting for him really isn't something that generates any excitement and I'm not particularly happy to support him, especially when there were (at least) several other Democratic candidates that I liked better, for a variety of reasons. He is, my feelings aside, going to be the Democratic nominee and I don't think anything's changing that at this point.
On the other hand, the other alternative to supporting Biden is to cede an inch to Donald Trump. Between Trump himself and his messaging, the next presidential term all but guaranteed to bring with it another supreme court nominee (if not more), and a Trump win likely meaning continued Republican majority in the Senate, it means that Donald Trump is a candidate that can and will bring change to our current status quo. Bear in mind what sort of change that will be.
Seems a bit like faux concern if you can't even remember what the dude said specifically. I know I'm being a bit nitpicky here, but with everything going on and the week we've had, it seems phony as hell if after all of what's going on, your beef is something you can only bother to remember as "something to that degree." If you've got reasons on feeling that no change would come based on something tangible and not simply because you feel that way, it'd at least be understandable, but I assume the puppet implication is catch-all enough. Reading these topics continue to be frustrating though, you're right there.
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I hope you don't get banned too, and trust you won't, I hate when people get banned just for unpopular opinions in the moment. Especially because I think there's always an opportunity to win someone over with a point, or maybe not win over the person you're arguing with, but perhaps win over a quiet 3rd party who feels the same way. So thank you for sharing your point, it's a valid one and worth discussing.
I'd like to draw a contrast between Biden and Trump here specifically with what you quoted. It was a stupid gaffe for Biden to say that especially on Charlemagne da God's podcast, like especially if all places. It was a racist comment. A distinction between Biden and Trump is that Biden immediately apologized, said he got caught up in the moment of a hot discussion, that he was too cavalier with the remark and he's sorry. He then expanded -- with a call among black business leaders -- about how he's going to fight for them as president.
Donald Trump, when he's called out on his bad remarks or even factually untrue things, doubles down and then requires his supporters to double down on the remark or the lie or forces them to bend reality to fit Trump's lies. The simplest most recent example is with the stupid 1917 Flu gaffe. Trump called the Spanish flu the 1917 flu once by mistake. He got chided for it lightly because it was 1918. But then rather than accept reality and simply admit, "oops, my bad," Trump makes it a wedge issue. He's called it the 1917 flu dozens of times since then,.intentionally, and insists it was 1917, and his supporters tie themselves in knots trying to find a way to make the Spanish flu happen in 1917. Trump is incapable of ever admitting he's wrong.
This is an innocuous example but it's just the most recent stupid one. He's has dozens, dozens, dozens of others. Trump today referred to black protesters as THUGS a dogwhistle for N****", he was criticized for it... Trump will double down. He'll say thugs is what they should be called. He'll go back to normalizing thugs as a description for black people, something that most good natured people have finally started to understand is a racist dogwhistle (myself included, I didn't get this until 5, 6 years ago).
Biden was wrong for saying what he said on that podcast. It was not only a gaffe but it was a racist gaffe. But he did the right thing, apologized and committed to doing right by the people he may have wronged with the comment. Trump, to this day, still refers to people as "my black person," and still treats black people in his orbit of things of possession... Like his personal lawn ornaments.
Biden was far from my first choice, but the only logical / pragmatic thing to do is to vote for him in November. Given our options, voting for a 3rd party candidate or not voting at all is a net negative. IMO, to me not voting for Biden is an implicit endorsement of Trump, because you are indirectly contributing to Trump's re-election. We already learned back in 2016 that moral high ground means jack shit when you lose.
Trump has already done irreparable damage to the country, and it will be even worse if he has an opportunity to get additional supreme court appointments -- that alone will have repercussions for any cause you believe in that might be subject to the U.S. legal system for one reason or another for generations to come. Add in all of the other issues (to name a few, the environment, social inequality, criminal justice, our international relationships) where Biden might not be great but he's going to be far better than Trump's administration.
If you're absolutely adamant about not voting for Biden in November: rethink your position.
Trump has already done irreparable damage to the country, and it will be even worse if he has an opportunity to get additional supreme court appointments -- that alone will have repercussions for any cause you believe in that might be subject to the U.S. legal system for one reason or another for generations to come. Add in all of the other issues (to name a few, the environment, social inequality, criminal justice, our international relationships) where Biden might not be great but he's going to be far better than Trump's administration.
If you're absolutely adamant about not voting for Biden in November: rethink your position.
I sincerely believe a second Trump term will result in the calcification of enough forms of voter suppression, white radicalization and outright fascism that there won't be another actual free election again in America (to the extent that we have any now). We'll be Russia 2.0, and the GOP's long con will have finally payed off.
In light of the threat facing myself as a black American, myself as a Millennial, myself as a human on a burning planet... my grievances with Biden are irrelevant. My vote for him isn't a vote for him. It's a vote for me not wanting to live in the Fourth Reich. It's a vote for an AoC/pre-primary Warren in 24. It's a vote to say fuck you to White Nationalists.
I would even vote for Bloomberg at this point over Trump. I thought MB was over my line but my perspective has changed. After the last few weeks I don't think in terms of lines anymore, just crossroads. Biden wins, and we've got breathing room to turn this country around. Or he doesn't, and it's done. Defeat. Game over. Try again in the next era of American history.
As that isn't the outcome I want, Biden it is.
In light of the threat facing myself as a black American, myself as a Millennial, myself as a human on a burning planet... my grievances with Biden are irrelevant. My vote for him isn't a vote for him. It's a vote for me not wanting to live in the Fourth Reich. It's a vote for an AoC/pre-primary Warren in 24. It's a vote to say fuck you to White Nationalists.
I would even vote for Bloomberg at this point over Trump. I thought MB was over my line but my perspective has changed. After the last few weeks I don't think in terms of lines anymore, just crossroads. Biden wins, and we've got breathing room to turn this country around. Or he doesn't, and it's done. Defeat. Game over. Try again in the next era of American history.
As that isn't the outcome I want, Biden it is.
I was hoping my phrasing was clear because I was drawing distinction between two different groups:
1-People who are planning to vote against Trump
2-People who say Trump and Biden are the same
while pointing out something both groups still imply in their own phrasing:
1 and 2 -Trump hasn't hurt white people
There is a strong disconnect in how certain people like yourself or the other people who share a belief that Trump's only impact is on minorities.
After 100k deaths it's a very clear that Trump is a threat to all of America in general.
Is your white fragility really that sensitive that you take issue with minorities saying that Trump has hurt them the most?
Let me ask you this then. Which group has benefited the most from Trump? The answer is white people and white supremacists. So don't give me that sob story when minorities have had to put up with him since he came into office and are the most impacted during this pandemic.
I don't think anyone equated them in that way. But they are both old white dudes and on that you can bet that they will both be out of touch with a large portion of Americans.
Biden ain't gonna move the needle, but he might at least get it closer to 4 years ago and I guess a net 0 is better than net negative. He's also a bit of a creep whose mind is slowly turning to mush. Basically, hope he hires a good administration and hope that the Dems win some senate seats but he sure isn't garnering enthusiasm for voters.
So, I wouldn't blame anyone for giving up hope.
Biden ain't gonna move the needle, but he might at least get it closer to 4 years ago and I guess a net 0 is better than net negative. He's also a bit of a creep whose mind is slowly turning to mush. Basically, hope he hires a good administration and hope that the Dems win some senate seats but he sure isn't garnering enthusiasm for voters.
So, I wouldn't blame anyone for giving up hope.
This.
We can do better. We had better on the table. Better is still around, but people are set on Biden and any reasonable complaint was supposed to vanish once he became the nominee which is bullshit.
Will people stop regurgitating the dang gop projection of Biden's mind going? Seriously, it's straight up propaganda.
Jon Campbell on Twitter
“A lot just popped off at the protest for George Floyd at the Barclays Center in Brooklyn. Pepper spray, batons, and several arrests. https://t.co/ZuciQA82fe”
twitter.com
Shits going down in Brooklyn right now.
As far as thread title topic goes, I'm not voting for either racist, I reject the idea of having to choose a 'lesser evil', and voting only legitimizes a corrupt, broken, and fundamentally flawed two-party system.
Fuck this metaphor. All it does is sensitize the core issue. I agree with your end point, but people who were desperate for change pretty much got the response of "well it's not gonna be as bad with this guy" compared to drastic systemic change they were counting on from better candidates. Stop letting Biden coast on "well he's not Trump".
The propaganda pushes itself. If by "voters" you mean people active on social media then you'd be correct. Those people don't vote though as evidenced by the primary. Polling and his primary performance show that the actual voting electorate is enthused to vote for him come November.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but America was just fine with nominating, and then electing, someone like Trump in the first place. Obviously I don't really mean it was just "fine" with it, and I also know that it's hardly news. But it happened all the same.
But I say all that because I'm reminded of a scene from a movie called A Bronx Tale, in which Chazz Palminteri's character and his crew ask a rowdy and unwelcomed biker gang to leave their bar. They were asked nicely, and they refused to leave.
So now, Chazz locks the exit door and says they can't leave. They had their chance, and now they can't leave.
Similarly, America had a chance to escape Trump, and now it can't.
On the other hand, America had a chance to escape "moderates" like Obama and Pelosi and Biden, and now it can't.
Moderates, as we know, are just Republican-lite, looking at it objectively.
It is widely known that America's so-called left is still centrist at best or even right of center when compared to actual leftism globally.
The fact remains that now you just pick your poison. You are left with only the choice of what poison you pick.
So the real choice you have is, do you decide to meet your demise head-on at the hands of a wolf in dictatorship clothing, or do you prolong your suffering cowardly under a wolf in sheep's clothing?
I'd rather just roll the dice and see what goes down. Let's see how many of them we can take down before they take us down. Let's see how unscathed they come out of it, since they want to keep rattling the cage. As the great Tank in the first Matrix movie said, "Exciting times ahead."
But I say all that because I'm reminded of a scene from a movie called A Bronx Tale, in which Chazz Palminteri's character and his crew ask a rowdy and unwelcomed biker gang to leave their bar. They were asked nicely, and they refused to leave.
So now, Chazz locks the exit door and says they can't leave. They had their chance, and now they can't leave.
Similarly, America had a chance to escape Trump, and now it can't.
On the other hand, America had a chance to escape "moderates" like Obama and Pelosi and Biden, and now it can't.
Moderates, as we know, are just Republican-lite, looking at it objectively.
It is widely known that America's so-called left is still centrist at best or even right of center when compared to actual leftism globally.
The fact remains that now you just pick your poison. You are left with only the choice of what poison you pick.
So the real choice you have is, do you decide to meet your demise head-on at the hands of a wolf in dictatorship clothing, or do you prolong your suffering cowardly under a wolf in sheep's clothing?
I'd rather just roll the dice and see what goes down. Let's see how many of them we can take down before they take us down. Let's see how unscathed they come out of it, since they want to keep rattling the cage. As the great Tank in the first Matrix movie said, "Exciting times ahead."
Honestly, posts like this fucking suck. The situation isn't great but fuck this noise lmao.
That quote was in extremely poor taste, but it's obvious what he meant. You're clearly not voting for your own interests if your black and go for the guy who proudly warned "When the looting starts, the shooting starts."
Plus the Central Park 5, the alleged racist comments on the set of his reality show, his dad having ties with the KKK...
Again, extremely shitty way of communicating this, and I get that Dems can appear to take minority votes for granted, but it's not like he was completely off-base.
Hero of the Web.
Jesus. This is a completely useless way to look at the world.
Centrist that wants to ensure health care is accessible for everyone, fight climate change, reduce income & wealth inequality, unwind 4 years of rampant corruption, restore the government's ability to protect people from disasters like the pandemic, protect the civil liberties of marginalized Americans, secure elections and the rule of law.
I'll pick that poison than you very much.
This defeatist swan song of idealists on the left was borderline sympathetic through the 90s when both parties roughly represented two flavors of milquetoast mediocrity, but the remarkable harm that republicans now pose to American (and worldwide) human life are so profound that takes like this come across as vain and petulant. Totally ignoring the human stakes of the election for the sake of some sophomoric fantasy about an idealized form of government that will never be attained and would likely fail even if it was.
Biden has actually laid out a plan for how he wants to help black people vs Trump threatening to kill groups of black people less than 24 hours ago among other issues. Yet the "Biden is just as bad as Trump" thing still exists.
There definitely were. We even had people here saying Trump is to the left of Biden.
Lmfao, please tell me this is copypasta. Jesus fucking Christ.
I'm sorry, going to have to stop you right here. Did Joe Biden do a 180 and suddenly decide to support M4A while I wasn't looking? Please cite a source that shows Biden supports healthcare for everyone.
Truth.
That would be Elon Musk, who called Robert Reich "a boring idiot."
Counter to Bernie's surrogates messaging, Biden's proposed public option, decreased Medicare age, and increased Medicaid accessibility will make health insurance accessible to all Americans that want it and free to those who can't afford it. That's what accessible means.
Plus, unlike M4A it has a chance in hell of passing.
No, you, the person who invokes characters from action movies when enunciating your political beliefs, you're a Hero of the Web.
It would also leave 28 million americans without health insurance, among other problems.
This is what private health insurance has given the USA. This is what will continue under a public option:
www.pgpf.org
Healthcare is a human right. It is not something that benefits from being tied down by the profit motive.
How Does the U.S. Healthcare System Compare to Other Countries?
Despite higher healthcare spending, America’s health outcomes are not any better than those in other developed countries.
www.pgpf.org
Healthcare is a human right. It is not something that benefits from being tied down by the profit motive.
I like most of what you said, because you obviously have good vocabulary and grammar skills, which you have fearlessly put on display, which is more than can be said for many others.
However, if I may interject, I'd just like to point that true "defeatism" is voting for the lesser of two evils, which is what you are doing. Theoretically, if you didn't have such a defeatist attitude, you would be voting for the greater of two evils so that you can see just how well America avoids falling apart anyway.
As Mortal Kombat would say, test your might.
Trump does or says something horrible every fucking day. Like racist, constitutional crises shit. This all conveniently gets ignored. Instead these same people will go on and on about how Biden sounded incoherent while saying a sentence. There is nothing to gain there. They feel like they were cheated and they are taking their ball and going home.
700,000 DACA recipients are at risk of being deported. How is this even a question if you're not a deluded sociopath.
Biden is a great man and I am happy to support him. He's empathetic and listens to people. He doesn't always get things right, but he's not too proud to learn from his mistakes. He has a ton of experience and wisdom that will go a long way in fixing a torn America. His platform is progressive as hell, and is proposing far beyond anything Obama ever proposed. He will be a competent leader and appoint good, effective people to his cabinet.
I am proud to support Joe Biden.
I am proud to support Joe Biden.
This mindless anarchist defeatism sounds like the kind of drek college age me would spout while drunk.
Here in the real world some of us have families and people we love to support and want the best we can for them, even if we have to make do with the best of a set of suboptimal choices. Black people are getting murdered and you post this navel gazing smarmy nonsense. Grow up.
I was thinking the same thing, it's too on the nose not to be some sort of trolling imo.
This is what private health insurance has given the USA. This is what will continue under a public option:
Going a bit offtopic here, but how should I interpret this? Per capita is an average, right? So, I'm Dutch, healthcare costs me 5.288 (around 4.750 euros) according to the chart? But I pay around lets say, 1250 euros a year. So I guess for one 'me' there is someone who spends around 8k on healthcare? But that doesnt make sense because there is almost no healthcare plan that I know of that is that expensive.
edit: nevermind, that 1250 is my premium, I didnt account for the Income-dependent contribution and taxes n stuff. The chart seems to be a bit outdated, the costs are around 5500 euros in general (6100 usd) for 2020.