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Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
You guys are forgetting what the Xbox actually was huh?
Xbox-Original-Logo-PNG.png


It literally had a Pentium 3 and modified Geforce3.....It was a range topping computer with modified parts to make it more efficient.
The equivalent today would be making a gaming console with a modified 1080Ti inside and scaled down 8700K.
The Xbox was more powerful than your computer 2001.....guaranteed.

Xbox GPU Core Clock: 233, Memory Clock: 200, Mpixel: 932

Geforce 3. Core Clock: 200, Memory Clock: 230, Mpixel: 800

The Xbox GPU was more powerful than Nvidias most powerful GPU.
The Xbox's problem was its CPU. It used a 733Mhz Coppermine-based CPU. In 2001, Intel released the Tualatin revision, which clocked between 1.0 and 1.4Ghz. Also, the first Pentium 4s were released in late 2000. Since you had standard desktop CPUs clocked at almost 2x the Xbox released that year, the Xbox rapidly began to fall behind. It was a fantastic console. Make no mistake. But tech was advancing at a rapid rate.
 

Spider-Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,353
I think the Xbox One X is exactly what we will see, very damn good specs for a damn good price that you can't beat building your own but more powerful stuff will exist.

You would be hard pressed to build a PC equivalent to an Xbox One X for $499.
 

slsk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
247
Consoles have never totally beaten PCs but there have been brief periods where some consoles have had graphical advantages over the PC platform:
  • Famicom had much better 2D scrolling when it launched.
  • N64 had Hardware Transform and Lighting in 1996 and this didn't come to PC consumers until 1999.
  • The XBox had a relatively strong GPU (but the CPU was weak).
 

Lupin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
658
Consoles have never totally beaten PCs but there have been brief periods where some consoles have had graphical advantages over the PC platform:
  • Famicom had much better 2D scrolling when it launched.
  • N64 had Hardware Transform and Lighting in 1996 and this didn't come to PC consumers until 1999.
  • The XBox had a relatively strong GPU (but the CPU was weak).
This post is very reasonable. So in keeping with message board traditions, it will be largely ignored.
 

icecold1983

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,243
Its not impossible, depends on crypto. I mean right now a 580 or 1060 alone cost more than an xbox X

Xbox 360 had a more advanced GPU at launch then anything on the pc market. It wasnt until g80 a year later that this ceased to be the case
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,750
United Kingdom
Maybe Xbox One X shows it's kinda possible but even if they aren't as powerful, being a fixed spec has it's own advantages and lets developers get the most out of a console.

Games like Uncharted 4 and Horizon show how much graphical quality they can squeeze out of a console with only a 1.84Tflop GPU. Even a half decent PC will likely have a more powerful GPU, so imagine what developers can do next gen when the console base level GPU power is something like 10-12Tflop, and hopefully a better CPU too. :)
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,859
PS2 had some lead. It lasted about year tops, but it was there. Xbox also launched with petite lead, but it was already at least matched if not surpassed by 2002. PSX I think was the only case where consoles managed to hold on to a longer lead, but once 3dfx came into the scane it was game over.

When PSX launched SEGA was making the best arcade hardware, 3dfx didn't even show up. They had 60fps virtua fighter. 3dfx didn't even need to show up.
 

ronaldthump

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,439
I'd say they already are kinda robust. If MS or SONY really pushed the pc like aspects, they're more than usable imo
 

icecold1983

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,243
Woah, really? Does Skyrim cost $4 as well?
I dont know, but 1 individual game is meaningless. Can you go to a store like target and have brand new, aaa games half off and buy 2 get 1 free? Can you buy used games for 33% of the price? Can you sell your games to get half the value or more back? Is there a pc equivalent of best buys GCU?

And before you fire back with cdkeys type sites, they sell console games too. That aspect is a wash
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
1,229
Xbox OG was extremely powerful for its day. Also, the 360 has features on its gpu when it came out that no pc gpu had yet, did a few months later. No PC games were looking like fight night when it came out though, that game was jaw dropping at the time.
 
Dec 15, 2017
1,590
Unless the console manufacturers are ready to take a hefty loss upfront, I don't think so. PC Hardware has been quite stagnant for the last few years: I bought my 760 in may 2013 and now in 2018 we are only 2 GPU series beyond it, with Volta far in the horizon. If PC hardware does not make a significant leap in performance per watt and performance per dollar, get ready to empty your wallet for your next gen fix. Otherwise risk a possible RROD 2.0 from manufacturers trying to deliver the most powerful and cheap console leaving thermals in the backseat.

Besides, the 4k craze and mid gen upgrades do not help much in setting realistic expectation of what a "next gen" should be. Typically next gen consoles are around 8 to 10 times more powerful that their previous incarnation to provide a significant upgrade. As of today the 1080ti is barely 8 times more powerful than the 750ti at 4k. And we are talking about a top of the line card. We should be able to get that kind of performance in an entry level card in around 3 to 4 years. Also a proper next gen machine (at least the way I see it) should have around 16GB of system ram and 2 TB of storage, preferably with an hybrid disk drive. Probably they should also be aiming at a 12 thread CPU with at least 4 times more single thread performance than the Jaguar cores available on the ps4 and Xbox one.

I'm not seeing that possible at an affordable price until 2022.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,859
Well.Sega didn't make PC GPUs though, so it's kind of meaningless what they did in arcades :)

Last time I checked no one in gaming had actual GPUS until nvidia started making them in the 90s. We largely had 3d accelerators.

I don't think it's meaningless if we are talking leads to mention the top of the mountain that for all intents and purposes had more consumers using it then the PS1 which only was in japan at that point to a even smaller amount of consumers. PC's were using special non standard parts that only enthusiasts and corporations were having access too. Consoles and pc's had exceptional trade offs as well until the DC/PS2/GC/Xbox generation where they severely lessened. Lets be clear there's a world of difference from DK snes, ridge racer and me playing quake at high res no console could hope to sport largely until 1080p displaced it.

All 4 of the systems I mentioned literally had no competition for about 3 years when the PC finally got far cry, doom3, hl2, and riddick.
 
Dec 15, 2017
1,590
But it's not all about graphics: PC's from the early 2000's could run MMO's and RTS games that consoles would not be able to run due to the huge difference in CPU power.

Also this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KGLH5gmQc4

I believe there was a time when the consoles outperformed pc's in most cases, and those were the NES days and the early to mid 90's when pc's had no dedicated GPU's. Anyway, before the seventh generation of consoles it's really hard to compare PC vs consoles as both were 2 different animals: There weren't many ports between these platforms to compare.
 

icecold1983

Banned
Nov 3, 2017
4,243
Werent there ps2 games that looked better than anything on pc for a time? Pc had a resoltuion advantage but if im remembering correctly, ps2 real world geometry and fillrate were very far ahead of any pc gpus of the time
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,859
Werent there ps2 games that looked better than anything on pc for a time? Pc had a resoltuion advantage but if im remembering correctly, ps2 real world geometry and fillrate were very far ahead of any pc gpus of the time

Tekken Tag and Gran Turismo for starters. I never dispute if consoles were leading pcs, I just tend to argue when it really happened. So far though era isn't disappointing as both era have been properly mentioned.

Yes but we are talking power. I don't expect you to make an excel sheet on xbox.

He has a point pcs have largely had multiplayer gaming since the mid 90s in various forms. Consoles didn't even catch up in basic functionality for at least another 2 generations. Even then pcs still offered more complex experiences in those as the makers still haven't figured out shitty cpus limit how many people your multiplayer games can have or deal with. It took XBL to make Sony shift and nintendo hasn't grown up one bit since xband debuted.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,945
Moving target, both in terms of price and performance, not in the console's favor at all. That's even if the console makers tried to pull a PS3 all over again. They also couldn't do it with the Pro or the One X. That's not even counting things console makers aren't or are refusing to touch like framerates over 60fps, 4k+ VR, multi screen gaming (unless you're GT), or even simple stuff like 16 AF.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,859
Those games were when PCs left consoles completely in the dust. PCs caught up to all those systems you've named in a months or at most year tops.

I'm not disputing the first point I'm literally defining it, hope you realize that.

PS2 and DC had no competition for quite sometime from the PC space and shitty ports don't count when the system sported better looking titles that left no doubt if they could be done. Others said it outside of res and fps or utility online options like voice and online play pcs weren't the champs easily from DC debut till about the point I mentioned. Listing a few a title for one platform when each of the 4 can sport at least 10-20 titles shouldn't be an argument but I forgot where I was posting.

I love pc just there are times when consoles had a leg up with no other platform offering the same certainly not at an affordable price like we have been forgetting.
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
There will literally never again be a situation where a $500 console is more powerful than a $1200 PC, and frankly it seems silly to expect it.

It will probably, however, be more powerful than a $500 PC.
This is the most one can expect within say $50 +/-. So Xbone X right now is probably better (at graphics) then say $500/$600 PC due to component prices but it's significantmy worse on the CPU front.

In 2019/2020 it may or may not be true depending on many factors. However, no chance that a $400-500 console will be better then say $800 PC (not counting a monitor here).
 

rodrigolfp

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,235
I'm not disputing the first point I'm literally defining it, hope you realize that.

PS2 and DC had no competition for quite sometime from the PC space and shitty ports don't count when the system sported better looking titles that left no doubt if they could be done. Others said it outside of res and fps or utility online options like voice and online play pcs weren't the champs easily from DC debut till about the point I mentioned. Listing a few a title for one platform when each of the 4 can sport at least 10-20 titles shouldn't be an argument but I forgot where I was posting.

I love pc just there are times when consoles had a leg up with no other platform offering the same certainly not at an affordable price like we have been forgetting.
"Outside everything that PC did better it didn't do better". Lol.
 

RedSwirl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,079
I think my current "answer" to these PC vs console threads is that if all you're interested in is playing the latest AAA games, consoles are probably almost always going to provide better value for your money. The console manufacturers spend tons of money ensuring their platforms will have access to those AAA games at a price point competitive PCs just can't reach.

If you care about literally any other aspect of gaming though, the advantages of PC start to appear.

That's just today though. In the past I don't think you could ever uniformly say consoles were better than PC, simply because PC had so many significant games back then that didn't come out on consoles, or came out on consoles much latter with lots of compromises. If your'e talking about the future, there's nothing right now that indicates consoles will escape from their limited wattage, size, and price budgets. Their advantage is they have the support of so many developers willing to optimize their games for hardware within those budgets.
 
After the PS2, Consoles stopped being better with graphics than PC, and the situation has not changed for more than a decade.
I wager to differ. The OG Xbox for example, but certain X360 with Perfect Dark Zero was a notch above what you could find in PC gaming in 2005.
However, PC's even back then had the benefit of resolutions - high end rigs hitting 1920x1200, for example. The same was also true in the OG Xbox days, where top end PC's reached 1600x1200. Visually wise however, The X360 trumped them all with its universal shader hardware, a year before the 8800 GTX was introduced. I like to think that this is why the X360 usually ended up performing better in the beginning and as the last-gen kept on going, because the X360 design was just ''clean'' - 3 core processor, 512 MB GDDR3, Universal shader GPU and EDRAM. Compared to the PS3, it was far easier to work with.

Haha what? Console Graphics were never better than PC. They just had more games because PC ports were less common. But games like Unreal, Tribes II, and Civ III looked a lot better than anything on consoles in 2001.
Like explained above, this is highly likely due to the significant resolution differences between PC and consoles, not to mention AA and AF that got useable starting from the 9700 Pro. (Before that, AA/AF had a significant performance penalty on most GPU's.)

The amiga 500 was released the same year as the nes and absolutelu blew it away. Home computers have always been more capable than consoles.
Home computers, assuming you are talking about the ones like the Amiga 500 (So keyboard in case) are quite outdated now, sans the few oddities that incorporate PC components in a keyboard case, effectively creating a home computer. They are usually consisting of netbook level components, however.

Sorry man I do not agree.
Care to elaborate why? I mean, if you pull out that response IRL, you will also be asked why you don't agree with it, at the least. This is just an easy way out.

There's a rather nice article on the PS2 and a rather ambitious PS2/Xbox crossplatform title. https://xania.org/201003/swat-ps2-renderer
Hah, looks like im not the only one aware of this. I linked that some months ago in a ''most impressive PS2 visuals'' thread. Argonaut did something exceptional here, coming up with a light baking process that gave incredible results reminscent of Mirror's Edge albeit years earlier. And ofcourse, some scenes with little lights look exceptionally poor aswell. But that lighting system with the baked stencil shadows, that game could easily hold up today when run on 4K. Its just that impressive visually.

Nintendo 64 better than a PC? It couldnt even get a Quake 1 port without compromises.
Are you sure you aren't confusing yourself with the Saturn port (which was a feat by itself)? Quake 64 had colored lighting and its the only 5th gen port to use the original engine. Quake 2 64 was based off of this.

The NES, not famicom, was released in 1985, the same year the Amiga was released (NOT 1987). In fact, the amiga released about a week after the earliest known NES test releases happened.

And the Amiga's custom chips were completed in 1983.
I wish you would have mentioned The Mindset computer from 1984, which was essentially the foreshadowing of what Amiga and Atari ST would become. What i would give for some gameplay of Vyper..

In the universe that someone can afford it? I mean, it's not that ridiculous.
Its almost twice as expensive as an X and undoubtely in a form factor that cant match what either a Pro or an X are doing. The only real caveat is the Jaguar based CPU platform at play here.

The Xbox GPU was more powerful than Nvidias most powerful GPU.
Only for a few months in North America only. In 2002, when everyone else got the Xbox, ATI released the Radeon 9700 Pro. A GPU far beyond expectations and could run some budget shooters from City Interactive (And Exodus From The Earth) on it, which were 2008-2010 titles. It had quite exceptional longevity.
 

Black_Stride

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
7,390
Only for a few months in North America only. In 2002, when everyone else got the Xbox, ATI released the Radeon 9700 Pro. A GPU far beyond expectations and could run some budget shooters from City Interactive (And Exodus From The Earth) on it, which were 2008-2010 titles. It had quite exceptional longevity.

That doesnt disprove my point that in the last double decade we have had a console launch that was more powerful than an affordable computer...in the Xbox case it launch with a chip beyond what was widely available at the time.

So in regards to next gen console, its is wholly possible for a next gen machine to drop with a GPU that is comparable if not better than an $800 computer.
 
That doesnt disprove my point that in the last double decade we have had a console launch that was more powerful than an affordable computer...in the Xbox case it launch with a chip beyond what was widely available at the time.

So in regards to next gen console, its is wholly possible for a next gen machine to drop with a GPU that is comparable if not better than an $800 computer.
Disregarding the 9700 Pro, really pushing yourselves here. Xbox came out in Nov 2001, but Geforce 4 Ti was Feb 2002.

The X360 was quite beyond what was available though, sans the resolution. And in handheld terms, the PSP was from the far future.

However both PS360 only made it possible by massive losses per unit and tons of R&D in custom hardware. Not something anyone at both MS or Sony aside of Kutaragi would want to try again. So yeah, it is possible, but likely the investment will be huge, and the price of the console will be evidently so, whilst still making a loss per unit.