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Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
If and when I see polling data that suggests a different result, I will evaluate and revise my opinion accordingly. Feel free to provide it if you know of any. Until then, I will work with the evidence at hand.

Which, of course, you're free to do. However, to argue from the stance that "polls show ____" without knowing the actual breakdown of the poll in terms of methodology and hard numbers, well history has shown that polls can be wildly inaccurate and/or biased. There's a huge difference between 72% of 400 natives polled and 72% of 40 natives polled. There's also the question of how the poll was conducted. Website? Email? Phone Calls? What was the class breakdown? Were poor represented equally to middle and upper class? All of these things make a huge difference.

Numbers can, have, and will be manipulated to support ideas so they should be looked at with some amount of skepticism rather than blindly accepted. And they certainly shouldn't be trotted out as unbiased facts.
 

Omegasquash

Member
Oct 31, 2017
6,186
I went to the top of Mauna Kea to visit the telescopes during my honeymoon, 12 years ago. The area had plenty of scopes then, and the tour guide noted that the highest part of the mountain was reserved for native Hawaiian use.

I wonder if that's still the case. I believe in the placement of telescopes there...the night sky is unobstructed, it's dry, cold, and pretty much above the clouds. But if building out encroaches on agreements (handshake or written) between the organization(s) building and native Hawaiians, then the brakes need to be pumped until it all gets settled.
 

Deleted member 907

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,300
Science is more important than "sacred land?"

That's the excuse white people give when they want to take your shit because "savages" don't know how to properly care for it.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,351
The amount of posts showing zero consideration or empathy for something massively important to a native population is shocking, but not surprising the more I think about it.

Frankly, those natives and their land can get fucked! Build that telescope! It's needed for the sake of whites Science advancing! Also I am totally left, why do you ask?
 

Terminus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,874
The amount of posts showing zero consideration or empathy for something massively important to a native population is shocking, but not surprising the more I think about it.

Frankly, those natives and their land can get fucked! Build that telescope! It's needed for the sake of whites Science advancing! Also I am totally left, why do you ask?

Damn, I had completely forgotten that every astronomer in the world is white. There isn't a single brown one and no country but America benefits from Mauna Kea.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,141
Which, of course, you're free to do. However, to argue from the stance that "polls show ____" without knowing the actual breakdown of the poll in terms of methodology and hard numbers, well history has shown that polls can be wildly inaccurate and/or biased. There's a huge difference between 72% of 400 natives polled and 72% of 40 natives polled. There's also the question of how the poll was conducted. Website? Email? Phone Calls? What was the class breakdown? Were poor represented equally to middle and upper class? All of these things make a huge difference.

Numbers can, have, and will be manipulated to support ideas so they should be looked at with some amount of skepticism rather than blindly accepted. And they certainly shouldn't be trotted out as unbiased facts.
I found the poll. It's 72 percent support amongst a sample size of 78 native Hawaiians. So 56 for, 18 against and 4 undecided.

 

Deleted member 14459

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,874
If and when I see polling data that suggests a different result, I will evaluate and revise my opinion accordingly. Feel free to provide it if you know of any. Until then, I will work with the evidence at hand.

what he is saying is that the actual polling data and methods are not in the links, so when they say that support has shifted from 38% to 72% it raises questions about the data/sampling.

As a scientist I always suggest you read/link to the original studies in order not to get an obfuscated view. The original study by Mason Dixon is quite clear on the point that for subgroups the sample is not big enough to take conclusive positions about said subgroups. n=78
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
A poll of 800 registered voters is pretty far from an accurate measurement of "the majority" of any part of the community. Let alone the native community which stands at around 10% of the total population of Hawaii (latest census I can find being a total of around 1.4 million people). Do we even have numbers on how many of those 800 registered voters were actually native? Because even as a sample, it's hard to say what 72% of the native population who took the poll actually is in hard numbers.

How does statistics work? That being said if there other problems with the methodology it could be inaccurate. I do think boiling this down to white people who want to destroy native land against their wishes is a somewhat simplistic.
 

Dongs Macabre

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,284
That poll is interesting to me because what kind of majority would you need among the native population to safely go through with construction? 50% wouldn't seem enough, but I do wonder at what point it would cross the threshold.
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
The telescope has greater support among natives than most Presidents, Senators, and Congressmen. 72% is pretty huge.

I say build it then. Put it to a public vote if necessary.
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
How does statistics work? That being said if there other problems with the methodology it could be inaccurate. I do think boiling this down to white people who want to destroy native land against their wishes is a somewhat simplistic.

I'm not boiling this down to anything other than how the native population feels. Because that is what I feel should matter with consideration to the site itself. Native and Indigenous people have historically been walked all over and quite honestly it doesn't matter who it is that's been doing the walking. The land itself reportedly has major cultural significance and with that being the case, the feelings and concerns of the native population should be weighed heavily rather than just brushed away with "But Science is paramount!" as if citing the importance of Science has never resulted in terrible things occuring to a people.
 

metalslimer

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
I'm not boiling this down to anything other than how the native population feels. Because that is what I feel should matter with consideration to the site itself. Native and Indigenous people have historically been walked all over and quite honestly it doesn't matter who it is that's been doing the walking. The land itself reportedly has major cultural significance and with that being the case, the feelings and concerns of the native population should be weighed heavily rather than just brushed away with "But Science is paramount!" as if citing the importance of Science has never resulted in terrible things occuring to a people.

I wasnt talking to you with that last point, and yes I agree with you that the natives concerns should be given priority.
 

XMonkey

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,827
Aren't they also razing a few of the old ones already built there so some more land would be freed up? Thought I read something about that.
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
People saying that science is more important than sacred lands are just plain wrong. The disregard for culture is wretched and steeped in imperialism. A dominant culture comes in and says that your culture doesn't matter, so we will do whatever we want with your land. Just completely racist.

Fuck that bullshit. That telescope can be built somewhere else.
 

Deleted member 14459

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,874
To the (white) men of science: The only people you should ask and poll about "how they feel" about building on sacred lands is the native hawaiians, it does not matter shit what white people think. The so-called scientific poll quoted was not designed around that question - rather it is designed around the question what the majority (of whites) think around the TMT.

If you are interested what the native hawaiians think do a proper study on that. But no one gives a fuck what indigenous people think.
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,141
So just with native population the margin of error is around 12%

At best it is a split issue among natives
Yeah, so this polling data is not very likely to accurately portray the views of the native population.

Yep. I found the previous poll results from 2016 and they say that it was split amongst native Hawaiians/part Hawaiians with 46 percent in support and 45 against. Though this doesn't actually have the demographic breakdowns per question. Maybe somebody else will have better luck. I thought I found a link to the first poll too but got warning messages when I clicked the link so left that one out.


Edit:

To the (white) men of science: The only people you should ask and poll about "how they feel" about building on sacred lands is the native hawaiians, it does not matter shit what white people think. The so-called scientific poll quoted was not designed around that question - rather it is designed around the question what the majority (of whites) think around the TMT.

If you are interested what the native hawaiians think do a proper study on that. But no one gives a fuck what indigenous people think.

This is also really important and as with the latest survey they point out the margin of error for the entire sample compared to the population but not the group that it will affect. Also, take into consideration the last time it was done the sample size of the affected demographic were larger and closer to reflecting their proportion of the population yet that info curiously is not presented.
 
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Pandaman

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,710
To the (white) men of science: The only people you should ask and poll about "how they feel" about building on sacred lands is the native hawaiians, it does not matter shit what white people think. The so-called scientific poll quoted was not designed around that question - rather it is designed around the question what the majority (of whites) think around the TMT.

If you are interested what the native hawaiians think do a proper study on that. But no one gives a fuck what indigenous people think.
White people are only about 25% of Hawaii's population.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,172
United States
White people think that every fucking thing belongs to them

It's sickening
Like, can you even show me any proof that ONE scientist doing this is white? Or are you just massively assuming? Because yeah, theres a lot a multicultural people that partake in that "white philosophy" of science. You understand that right?

That ONLY white people fuck over others in the name of science is naive at best. Not sure how this went from "let's save sacred native grounds" to "fuck white people"...its sickening.
 

Future Gazer

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
4,273
Yeah, a quick look at wikipedia reveals that this telescope has been funded by China, Japan and India. Dunno why this discussion is suddenly about white people.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,385
I fucking love telescopes. But hate to see natives keep getting fucked. Look elsewhere.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,291
Like, can you even show me any proof that ONE scientist doing this is white? Or are you just massively assuming? Because yeah, theres a lot a multicultural people that partake in that "white philosophy" of science. You understand that right?

That ONLY white people fuck over others in the name of science is naive at best. Not sure how this went from "let's save sacred native grounds" to "fuck white people"...its sickening.

You said it yourself in your post what "white philosophy" is in regards to land and native concerns.

This entire situation stinks of white man's burden and the "hindersnce of scientific achievement"

The native people have connection to the land, leave the damn land alone.
Wait what? Wasn't this a multi-national project? What does "white people" have to do with this?

Look at how some react to the info

Science > Sacred Land

Tell me how that's not a white colonial attitude if I've ever seen one
 

kingslunk

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
937
White people think that every fucking thing belongs to them

It's sickening

"The TMT International Observatory LLC (TIO), a non-profit organization, was established in May 2014 to carry out the construction and operation phases of the TMT Project. The Members of TIO are Caltech, the University of California, the National Institutes of Natural Sciences of Japan, the National Astronomical Observatories of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, the Department of Science and Technology of India, and the National Research Council (Canada); the Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy (AURA) is a TIO Associate. Major funding has been provided by the Gordon & Betty Moore Foundation. "

"white people though"
 

abellwillring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,939
Austin, TX
The Rock posted a little mini documentary on Instagram the other day.. it was in that longer form way to view videos, but it looks like the website has the full version. It was a pretty interesting primer:

 
Oct 27, 2017
2,172
United States
You said it yourself in your post what "white philosophy" is in regards to land and native concerns.

This entire situation stinks of white man's burden and the "hindersnce of scientific achievement"

The native people have connection to the land, leave the damn land alone.


Look at how some react to the info

Science > Sacred Land

Tell me how that's not a white colonial attitude if I've ever seen one
Dude, I put it in quotes because its sarcastic. Many cultures have made poor decisions in the name of science.

Get over your prejudices, please. It's ok to blame white people when they are at fault. This isnt one of those times. Nice mental gymnastics though.

If you were talking about any other denomination of human, youd already be banned.
 

DigitalOp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
9,291
Dude, I put it in quotes because its sarcastic. Many cultures have made poor decisions in the name of science.

Get over your prejudices, please. It's ok to blame white people when they are at fault. This isnt one of those times. Nice mental gymnastics though.

If you were talking about any other denomination of human, youd already be banned.

I think the sad part is that I can be wrong about the telescope and the statement would still ring true for alot of history, people and cultures worldwide. Reap what you sow and all.
 

Terminus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,874
You said it yourself in your post what "white philosophy" is in regards to land and native concerns.

This entire situation stinks of white man's burden and the "hindersnce of scientific achievement"

The native people have connection to the land, leave the damn land alone.


Look at how some react to the info

Science > Sacred Land

Tell me how that's not a white colonial attitude if I've ever seen one

Jesus Christ.

Astronomy is not white.
 

mreddie

Member
Oct 26, 2017
44,155
Now I just want Momoa and Rock just become their movie characters and just wreck these people trying to put bullshit no one needs.

bH7vBEqvJVkFfSn7aNjk8zEBKE0=.gif
 

noob-noob

Member
Nov 1, 2017
156
Boston
Yeah, so this polling data is not very likely to accurately portray the views of the native population.
So just with native population the margin of error is around 12%

At best it is a split issue among natives

As mentioned the margin of error is 12%, how exactly in your mind does that make it a split issue among the native population? At worst there is 60% support among the native population. Why does a small and loud subsection of a native group get to dictate what is and is not considered sacred to their culture?

Furthermore traditions that get in the way of scientific progress and societal development should be left behind in the dust where they belong. I feel this way about all traditions regardless of what ethnic and geographic origin they may have. There's a reason why Chinese foot binding and Nordic cremation orgies and sacrifices no longer exist, because they don't make any fucking sense in the modern world in which we are all living in.
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,338
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meowdi gras

Member
Feb 24, 2018
12,666
Glad to see that this thread is filled with the usual white people knowing what's best for everyone and shouting down the voices of PoC. Ah, "progressive" ERA! 👍
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,118
Googled Mauna Kea and the place is just a barren land. :/

It's sacred. It doesn't matter what's there. All that matters is that it's sacred to native Hawaiians.

My gf is native Hawaiian and flew from Oahu to go to the protests with her family. The natives aren't even upset with the Nationals Guard that are there even taking care of them and giving them food. Mauna Kea means a lot to them. They don't want to see it destroyed.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,351
It takes an immense amount of racism to look at something a native population finds extremely valuable to their culture and saying "Fuck that, our science is more important".

But something something reverse racism, if I were talking about anyone else I'd be banned yadda yadda
 

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
As mentioned the margin of error is 12%, how exactly in your mind does that make it a split issue among the native population? At worst there is 60% support among the native population. Why does a small and loud subsection of a native group get to dictate what is and is not considered sacred to their culture?

Furthermore traditions that get in the way of scientific progress and societal development should be left behind in the dust where they belong. I feel this way about all traditions regardless of what ethnic and geographic origin they may have. There's a reason why Chinese foot binding and Nordic cremation orgies and sacrifices no longer exist, because they don't make any fucking sense in the modern world in which we are all living in.

78 Natives out of roughly 140,000~ is not a large enough sample size to make a conclusive statement on.

Also, holy shit at the false equivalence of foot binding and sacrifices to a land site that is home to a quarry with artifacts of the natives stone tools as well as multiple burial grounds. Do you see people equating Astronomy with The Tuskegee Experiments? You need to pull waaay back from where you're taking your argument.