dreamcast

Member
Oct 27, 2017
520
I disagree with Boyega.

Watch TFA. The continuation of Finn's arc in TLJ makes sense.

In TFA, he was on the run from the First Order. But he learns to care of someone else and risks his life to save Rey in enemy territory.

In TLJ he is still concerned with Rey and wants to save her. But now Rose helps him to see he can't be worried about little things. There's a bigger picture and he needs to fight against what he knows is wrong. And that means fighting the First Order.

He's all set for TROS now to breakthrough as a hero.

Also, he's an actor. Who cares if he doesn't like the direction the character was taken. It's not his job to write the arc. If you can't take being told how to act and will just complain about it, then don't be an actor.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,254
For me it was "here's the Deathstar but now it's something straight out of the EU that can blow up 5 planets at once in whole other systems"

Maybe I'm crazy but I would have liked to have seen something like the Republic building their own Deathstar (because this is how proliferation typically works) and the First Order hijacking it.

Technically the First Order didn't design Starkiller Base. The Empire was in the process of hollowing out Ilum, one of the planets most rich in kyber crystals, to turn it into a larger version of the Death Star years before the Death Star itself was even complete. As far as we can tell, the Empire fell before they could complete the project and the First Order took over. That at least explains how they managed to even get their hands on a weapon like that.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Technically the First Order didn't design Starkiller Base. The Empire was in the process of hollowing out Ilum, one of the planets most rich in kyber crystals, to turn it into a larger version of the Death Star years before the Death Star itself was even complete. As far as we can tell, the Empire fell before they could complete the project and the First Order took over. That at least explains how they managed to even get their hands on a weapon like that.

oh wow

this explains a something in Fallen Order, that i didnt think twice
 

SELIG

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
2,011
Reading some of the comments feels like maybe a simple adjustment to make things better for those who don't like Finn's TLJ story is to rewrite the way he meets Rose, and not have him trying to run away. If Rose and Finn had just teamed up by meeting and sharing grief over Han/Paige and bonded in that way, then began hatching a plan together it would have been better. Leave out the element of Finn trying to run away altogether.

I don't have a problem with how their plan fails, cause honestly it's interesting and raised the tension even more, but I can understand many of you having a problem with Finn starting off wanting to run still.
 

Liquidsnake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,023
Just some of the criticism I had about TLJ had to do with Finn and the way he was mishandled. So we know Hamill was not overly thrilled, John was not overly thrilled, Daisy has dropped hints that she wasn't overly thrilled, although that seems to be more to do with the franchise and her wanting to exit it.

At any point can we say that maybe those who didn't like it were a little justified? And that it is not a "masterpiece" as some have claimed?

It did so much damage to the franchise that is irreversible.
 
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Oct 28, 2017
13,691
It feels like you ignore the end of the film.

The thing he says right after being there for Rey is that they'll figure out how to take the shield down.

The first thing they do is follow his (Finn's) plan to capture Phasma and get her to lower the shields, all before they even look for Rey.

After they find Rey and are free and clear outside the base he goes back in to help bomb the place because the resistance fighters look like they need help.

When Han dies, he looks like he wants to jump down and murder Kylo and Rey actually has to pull him away.

The last thing he does is bravely fight Kylo even though he is obviously no match.

His actions at the end of TFA could easily lead into him being a committed fighter. It would have been absolutely believable.

I don't ignore the end of the film. Those are all things Finn needed to do for survival, not out of some higher calling for the Resistance. It's not like he came up with the plan to take out the reactor and he didn't go out of his way to fight Kylo. He had to fight him because he hunted them down. He had no choice.
 
Dec 22, 2017
7,099
Reading some of the comments feels like maybe a simple adjustment to make things better for those who don't like Finn's TLJ story is to rewrite the way he meets Rose, and not have him trying to run away. If Rose and Finn had just teamed up by meeting and sharing grief over Han/Paige and bonded in that way, then began hatching a plan together it would have been better. Leave out the element of Finn trying to run away altogether.

I am on board with this. This is the kind of little stuff that I think would have been handled better if RJ had another year to write and rewrite the screenplay.
 

DIE BART DIE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,884
I mean, if we are talking about being disingenuous, the very poster you linked to wasn't even banned for simply "criticizing TLJ's handling of Finn" but for personally going after another poster, repeatedly and against warning. But hey, you can say anything because who is actually gonna check, right?

You do good work in Star Wars threads, sir.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,254
oh wow

this explains a something in Fallen Order, that i didnt think twice

Yeah, it's a really neat touch. The Empire was already on Ilum when you got there in Fallen Order and it's obvious why - the Death Star laser is powered by kyber crystals, so what do you get if you install a similar laser cannon on a planet that's essentially one big kyber crystal? It also easily resolved the issue of how the First Order managed to get their hands on something like that because it had been in development for at least 60 years by the time The Force Awakens takes place, in 34 ABY.
 

uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
I mean, if we are talking about being disingenuous, the very poster you linked to wasn't even banned for simply "criticizing TLJ's handling of Finn" but for personally going after another poster, repeatedly and against warning. But hey, you can say anything because who is actually gonna check, right?
You mean like how you obviously just restated the assertions in the ban message without actually reading the thread? I'm sure it's fun to smirk and say "who's gonna check?" at people but it helps if you, you know, check? Anyway.
 

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,619
You mean like how you obviously just restated the assertions in the ban message without actually reading the thread?
I read the thread. Was there, saw it all. I would suggest that you, on the other hand, are deliberately ignoring the full context of a more complicated escalation between two posters and reducing and mischaracterizing the exchange to paint a simpler narrative that people who do not like a fucking star war are being victimized over simply having a position.

I am asserting that you are, ironically, making a disingenuous representation of the situation to fit your own narrative. A narrative where you are accusing people who "defend" TLJ of escalating hostility to the point of getting people banned. That is an unfair and irresponsible escalation of rhetoric that you have failed to support.

I would also suggest that stating "I shouldn't have to name names so I am not going to" is a weaselly way of trying to prop up the narrative without actually having to back it up. I think this is more reasonable to not follow through on, however, because if you started naming names things would get dirty real quick.
 

Chie Satonaka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,683
I disagree with Boyega.

Watch TFA. The continuation of Finn's arc in TLJ makes sense.

In TFA, he was on the run from the First Order. But he learns to care of someone else and risks his life to save Rey in enemy territory.

In TLJ he is still concerned with Rey and wants to save her. But now Rose helps him to see he can't be worried about little things. There's a bigger picture and he needs to fight against what he knows is wrong. And that means fighting the First Order.

He's all set for TROS now to breakthrough as a hero.

Also, he's an actor. Who cares if he doesn't like the direction the character was taken. It's not his job to write the arc. If you can't take being told how to act and will just complain about it, then don't be an actor.

This is an ugly fucking post.

I'll give you credit tho, at least you had the stones to basically tell Boyega to shut the fuck up and do his job flat out instead of tiptoeing around it like other posters have here.
 

uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
I read the thread. Was there, saw it all. I would suggest that you, on the other hand, are deliberately ignoring the full context of a more complicated escalation between two posters and reducing and mischaracterizing the exchange to paint a simpler narrative that people who do not like a fucking star war are being victimized over simply having a position.

I am asserting that you are, ironically, making a disingenuous representation of the situation to fit your own narrative. A narrative where you are accusing people who "defend" TLJ of escalating hostility to the point of getting people banned. That is an unfair and irresponsible escalation of rhetoric that you have failed to support.

I would also suggest that stating "I shouldn't have to name names so I am not going to" is a weaselly way of trying to prop up the narrative without actually having to back it up.
If you had read the thread, you'd probably see that there was more than two posters involved, but you clearly didn't. I think I'll just ignore pretty much everything you have to say, actually. Bye.
 

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,619
If you had read the thread, you'd probably see that there was more than two posters involved, but you clearly didn't. I think I'll just ignore pretty much everything you have to say, actually. Bye.
That's one way to handle getting called out. The discussion was obviously multiple posters, some of which held the same position but weren't banned because they didn't' escalate.
 
Dec 22, 2017
7,099
Watch TFA. The continuation of Finn's arc in TLJ makes sense.

Think about Rey in TFA. She didn't want to leave her planet, she didn't want the job with Han, she didn't want the saber. How disappointing would TLJ have been if Rey STILL wanted to go back to Jakku, and it took Luke or someone else to convince her she was good enough to be part of the story.

They very well could have made it that way, and it may have even "made sense", but it still would be disappointing.

That's how it felt with Finn. I hate that he immediately wants to jump ship to find Rey. As if his only motivation can be chasing the female character, and everything that happened at the end of TFA didn't change him.
 

uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
That's one way to handle getting called out.
Getting "called out" would involve someone saying a true thing to me. Instead you're trying to derail this thread by relitigating one that was closed, that you obviously didn't even read, and getting upset with me because I won't join you in doing so. Maybe you should think about how you spend your life. Don't worry, it won't involve me anymore.
 

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
Think about Rey in TFA. She didn't want to leave her planet, she didn't want the job with Han, she didn't want the saber. How disappointing would TLJ have been if Rey STILL wanted to go back to Jakku, and it took Luke or someone else to convince her she was good enough to be part of the story.

Exactly, except... don't make it Luke who convinces her she's good enough to be part of the story. Make it some random new guy the audience has no attachment to who walks her through every decision she needs to make to get her to the point that she is 'good enough', to the point Rey's completely unable to display any self determinism. And then have him kiss her unexpectedly out of nowhere at the end for good measure, you know, to reward her for being 'good' and doing everything the way he told her to. Only then will she truly complete an 'arc'
 

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,619
Getting "called out" would involve someone saying a true thing to me. Instead you're trying to derail this thread by relitigating one that was closed, that you obviously didn't even read, and getting upset with me because I won't join you in doing so. Maybe you should think about how you spend your life.
You brought it up multiple times, introducing it as a point of discussion. I'm not here to relitigate the previous thread, what happened happened, but to litigate your own point. I happen to think your point is in and of itself a disingenuous characterization that escalates the hostility in the discussion.
 

Deleted member 11039

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
2,109
I don't ignore the end of the film. Those are all things Finn needed to do for survival, not out of some higher calling for the Resistance. It's not like he came up with the plan to take out the reactor and he didn't go out of his way to fight Kylo. He had to fight him because he hunted them down. He had no choice.

I think you can just as easily (or more so actually) infer he's seeing the value in their cause. He doesn't try to convince them not to go back in even though they've completed their mission and found Rey. He helps without hesitation. He's a big reason SKB is blown up. He now sees the FO is actually vulnerable. His own actions literally have a galactic impact.

Again I have a hard time imagining anyone thinking twice if TLJ starts and he's simply part of the resistance and down for the cause.
 

Deleted member 42055

User requested account closure
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Apr 12, 2018
11,215
Getting "called out" would involve someone saying a true thing to me. Instead you're trying to derail this thread by relitigating one that was closed, that you obviously didn't even read, and getting upset with me because I won't join you in doing so. Maybe you should think about how you spend your life. Don't worry, it won't involve me anymore.

FWIW I agree with you. I'm not sure when things shifted to where these films were " fair game" to criticize but for a while SW threads were impossible. You'd have the same posters over and over condescending and antagonizing people with differing opinions ex/ Heaven forbid someone have an issue with Rey's ascent into the Force.

Sometimes that proved too much for some people and they lashed out , getting banned. I can't say I blame them, it so often read as if they were talking to a wall, if the wall were constantly shaking their head and trivializing their POV.

I also love the " show me proof" as if people are making this stuff up , as if anyone wants to comb through dozens upon dozens of threads and posts to show a post that will just be hand waved away anyway.

I'm derailing now though so I'll shut up but I see your POV 100 and the gaslighting youre getting is gross
 
Dec 22, 2017
7,099
Exactly, except... don't make it Luke who convinces her she's good enough to be part of the story. Make it some random new guy the audience has no attachment to who walks her through every decision she needs to make to get her to the point that she is 'good enough', to the point Rey's completely unable to display any self determinism. And then have him kiss her unexpectedly out of nowhere at the end for good measure, you know, to reward her for being 'good' and doing everything the way he told her to. Only then will she truly complete an 'arc'

EXACTLY
 

haotshy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,595
I definitely feel what he said about it not feeling like we know the sequel trilogy's trio as well as we do the original trilogy's. That's been bugging me for quite a while; it doesn't feel like much has happened in the new trilogy, and it feels like a fourth movie would be needed for it to possibly end on a satisfying note.
 

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
I think you can just as easily (or more so actually) infer he's seeing the value in their cause. He doesn't try to convince them not to go back in even though they've completed their mission and found Rey. He helps without hesitation. He's a big reason SKB is blown up. He now sees the FO is actually vulnerable. His own actions literally have a galactic impact.

Again I have a hard time imagining anyone thinking twice if TLJ starts and he's simply part of the resistance and down for the cause.

By the same token, we did not need Empire Strikes Back to be a story about Han accepting that the Rebellion's cause is worthy; separating him from the rest of the cast to be berated by some rebel leader about the ins and outs of the war and why he should become a selfless general.

No, when Empire starts, Han is a general.

We don't know what motivated Han to come back at the end of ANH. Did he want to save Luke, because that plucky duck reminded him of a young Han telling the Empire his name is "Solo"? Did he have a thing for Leia? Or did he fully devote himself to the Rebel cause? We can all have our theories, but the way the saga plays out, it would seem all three are correct.

Finn is practically in the same boat. Uncertain allegiances throughout TFA culminate in him taking a heroic stand, one that is mostly encouraged by, you guessed it, Han Solo. (It's like poetry, it rhymes!). Revisiting Finn's allegiances in TLJ is just as awkward as doing the same for Han would have been. TFA is a retread of ANH, and Finn is Han Solo

The authors of ESB mined the content of ANH to find the most interesting plot threads to carry forward. What is interesting about Han Solo? Is it that he isn't fully committed to the Rebellion? Or is it that he's wanted by bounty hunters and even name drops an intergalactic space gangster? Is it that he needs to learn to fit into the rank and file of an established command structure? Or is it that his vagrant past has likely left untold friends, enemies, and everything between in it's wake? Which story would be most interesting to follow up on???

Do the above analysis for Finn, and see if you can think of something, anything about Finn as presented in TFA that would be more interesting than re-affirming his allegiance to the rebellion. It's not a tough exercise
 
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uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
That's how it felt with Finn. I hate that he immediately wants to jump ship to find Rey. As if his only motivation can be chasing the female character, and everything that happened at the end of TFA didn't change him.
You can almost see the attempt to wean Finn off of his Rey obsession in TLJ. They probably had realized that continuing to have Finn be so single-minded. TFA had that problem big time: "Rey is motivated by the quest to understand herself, her origins, where she's going, her place in this world and how the abilities she's learning about will guide that... Finn, on the other hand, is motivated by Rey!" It needed to change.

But... Exposition-heavy educational sequences for Finn re: war and the value of love were so condescending and weird, and to be honest, the way he kept getting sucked in to the events was working just fine as a motivator. He had skin in the game as a person trying to survive and because he cares about the people he is meeting; that was naturally leading him down the right path. They could've just stopped having him constantly mention Rey, and continue down that road. Buuut, they paired him with Rose, because I guess he just needed a different female character to be his muse?

I mean I wanted him to be a co-protagonist and have a lightsaber, but at least not fucking up so badly would've been nice...
FWIW I agree with you. I'm not sure when things shifted to where these films were " fair game" to criticize but for a while SW were impossible. You'd have the same posters over and over condescending and antagonizing people with differing opinions ex/ Heaven forbid someone have an issue with Rey's ascent into the Force.

Sometimes that proved too much for some people and they lashed out , getting banned. I can't say I blame them, it's read as if they were talking to a wall, if the wall were constantly shaking their head and trivializing their POV.

I also love the " show me proof" as if people are making this stuff up , as if anyone wants to comb through dozens upon dozens of threads and posts to show a post that will just be hand waved away anyway.

I'm derailing now though so I'll shut up but I see your POV 100 and the gaslighting is gross
Hey, thanks. <3 I do think it's getting better - on subjects like Finn where the criticism is more broadly acknowledged I think it's been more possible lately to chat about things constructively. It's weird how divided it got - it was almost like political discussions. There's probably a lot to untangle there, but I share your concern about derailing so I'll stop there :/ :)
 

foggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,972
I disagree with Boyega.

Watch TFA. The continuation of Finn's arc in TLJ makes sense.

In TFA, he was on the run from the First Order. But he learns to care of someone else and risks his life to save Rey in enemy territory.

In TLJ he is still concerned with Rey and wants to save her. But now Rose helps him to see he can't be worried about little things. There's a bigger picture and he needs to fight against what he knows is wrong. And that means fighting the First Order.

He's all set for TROS now to breakthrough as a hero.

Also, he's an actor. Who cares if he doesn't like the direction the character was taken. It's not his job to write the arc. If you can't take being told how to act and will just complain about it, then don't be an actor.

So uppity
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Regardless of whether or not it is, it's about what Boyega believes.

Although I'll chime in that I don't think Lucas would've had Luke try to murder his sleeping nephew. There's a way to play punished Luke that is far less grim.

i think there would need something really BAD to happen to get to punished Luke anyways, so maybe not "trying to kill his nephew" but something just as bad or worse
 
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
I think you can just as easily (or more so actually) infer he's seeing the value in their cause. He doesn't try to convince them not to go back in even though they've completed their mission and found Rey. He helps without hesitation. He's a big reason SKB is blown up. He now sees the FO is actually vulnerable. His own actions literally have a galactic impact.

Again I have a hard time imagining anyone thinking twice if TLJ starts and he's simply part of the resistance and down for the cause.
But the TLJ continues the story showing that the FO is actually not vulnerable but in an even more commanding position than before. They have the Resistance dead to rights and Finn is thinking about saving his skin or maybe jumping ship and finding Rey so they can get away from this new no-win situation. You kinda have to ignore the context of things in the new movie and the headspace Finn was in in the last movie to say that him not being super eager to join up isn't a valid avenue to explore for his character.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
But the TLJ continues the story showing that the FO is actually not vulnerable but in an even more commanding position than before. They have the Resistance dead to rights and Finn is thinking about saving his skin or maybe jumping ship and finding Rey so they can get away from this new no-win situation. You kinda have to ignore the context of things in the new movie and the headspace Finn was in in the last movie to say that him not being super eager to join up isn't a valid avenue to explore for his character.

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deploys the merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

i dont understand how this mean the FO is vulnerable
 
Dec 22, 2017
7,099
You kinda have to ignore the context of things in the new movie

I think this is exactly what the disconnect is. Since we are all talking about a hypothetical rewrite of the plot for Finn, I see other things as fluid and changeable too. So I guess I don't feel limited by what was actually in the movie.

A: Finn should have been the new Leia
B: He can't because Poe is
A: But I would change that too
 

RandomSeed

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,067
Luke was going to drop his ice cream cone and get really sad according to Lucas's original plan. Probably thought that was too cruel to do to him and they just went with the attempted sleep murder. 🤔
 
Jan 3, 2018
3,448
Reading some of the comments feels like maybe a simple adjustment to make things better for those who don't like Finn's TLJ story is to rewrite the way he meets Rose, and not have him trying to run away. If Rose and Finn had just teamed up by meeting and sharing grief over Han/Paige and bonded in that way, then began hatching a plan together it would have been better. Leave out the element of Finn trying to run away altogether.

I don't have a problem with how their plan fails, cause honestly it's interesting and raised the tension even more, but I can understand many of you having a problem with Finn starting off wanting to run still.

Exactly. TLJ is chock full of things that one little change would fix. They add up.

Finn abandoning ship makes him look like a coward, which we know he's not from TFA, plus him doing it because of his love for Rey makes him seem short-sighted. He already tried to get her to leave the Resistance with him, and she refused. So what was his plan if he did end up abandoning the fleet and meeting up with her again? What would she think of someone who abandoned her friends? Come to think of it, why is only Finn and not Leia worried about Rey returning to a beacon trapped on a doomed ship? For some reason, it's always only Finn who cares about saving Rey and never anyone else. They should fire the beacon with an SOS message to the nearest planet in case she returns to it soon.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
i dont understand how this mean the FO is vulnerable

But those were story decisions that TLJ made. You could have easy had both the FO and the Republic decimated following the destruction of Starkiller. There were any number of directions that you could have taken following TFA. TLJ decided to say 'nah the FO is fine and more dominant than ever' because that's what they/RJ wanted to do.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Exactly. TLJ is chock full of things that one little change would fix. They add up.

Finn abandoning ship makes him look like a coward, which we know he's not from TFA, plus him doing it because of his love for Rey makes him seem short-sighted. He already tried to get her to leave the Resistance with him, and she didn't go. So what was his plan if he did end up abandoning the fleet and meeting up with her again? What would she think of someone who abandoned her friends? Come to think of it, why is only Finn and not Leia worried about Rey returning to a beacon trapped on a doomed ship? For some reason, it's always only Finn who cares about saving Rey and never anyone else. They should fire the beacon with an SOS message to the nearest planet in case she returns to it soon.

because leia is focused on saving the fleet, thus saving rey.

why would she worry about Rey specifically when everybody is in danger?

But those were story decisions that TLJ made. You could have easy had both the FO and the Republic decimated following the destruction of Starkiller.

but starkiller base wasnt the whole FO, as the first death star wasnt the whole empire.

and honestly i agree with everybody that say "they could have go this way" yes they could but they didnt and there is nothing we can do about it now
 

MagicHobo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,619
But the TLJ continues the story showing that the FO is actually not vulnerable but in an even more commanding position than before. They have the Resistance dead to rights and Finn is thinking about saving his skin or maybe jumping ship and finding Rey so they can get away from this new no-win situation. You kinda have to ignore the context of things in the new movie and the headspace Finn was in in the last movie to say that him not being super eager to join up isn't a valid avenue to explore for his character.
This is important context. He thinks the fleet is doomed and that's it. Leia is in a coma and he sees no viable way for the resistance to get out of it. Until he does.

I've reiterated it a few times, but the moment he sees a way to help the resistance out of it, he turns back and straight up volunteers himself to help, which mind you involves personally infiltrating the enemy base. He may not be fully committed to the cause, but he does in fact put himself out there once he sees a way. Furthermore, he's not trying to run at every chance he gets while he's out there, he earnestly tries to help.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
This is important context. He thinks the fleet is doomed and that's it. Leia is in a coma and he sees no viable way for the resistance to get out of it. Until he does.

I've reiterated it a few times, but the moment he sees a way to help the resistance out of it, he turns back and straight up volunteers himself to help, which mind you involves personally infiltrating the enemy base. He may not be fully committed to the cause, but he does in fact put himself out there once he sees a way. Furthermore, he's not trying to run at every chance he gets while he's out there, he earnestly tries to help.

and thats a natural continuation of his arc on TFA
 

vitamind

Member
Nov 1, 2018
219
There is no reason why the ST couldn't be even smaller in scope. If you wanna put the bulk of the story people care about on force users go all in. No reason why this ST couldn't be about some ancient Sith resurrection (or whatever you want to make up) stuff corrupting Ben and the results of that aftermath leading to a story much smaller in scale. The overarching story does nothing in my opinion but shines more so in the relationships regarding Ben, Rey, Luke, and Leia. Everything surrounding that just does nothing for me. Which is what bothers me in my opinion for Finn I felt it could be more and that's my fault.
 

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
You kinda have to ignore the context of things in the new movie and the headspace Finn was in in the last movie to say that him not being super eager to join up isn't a valid avenue to explore for his character.

consider the following:

By the same token, we did not need Empire Strikes Back to be a story about Han accepting that the Rebellion's cause is worthy; separating him from the rest of the cast to be berated by some rebel leader about the ins and outs of the war and why he should become a selfless general.

No, when Empire starts, Han is a general.

We don't know what motivated Han to come back at the end of ANH. Did he want to save Luke, because that plucky duck reminded him of a young Han telling the Empire his name is "Solo"? Did he have a thing for Leia? Or did he fully devote himself to the Rebel cause? We can all have our theories, but the way the saga plays out, it would seem all three are correct.

Finn is practically in the same boat. Uncertain allegiances throughout TFA culminate in him taking a heroic stand, one that is mostly encouraged by, you guessed it, Han Solo. (It's like poetry, it rhymes!). Revisiting Finn's allegiances in TLJ is just as awkward as doing the same for Han would have been. TFA is a retread of ANH, and Finn is Han Solo

The authors of ESB mined the content of ANH to find the most interesting plot threads to carry forward. What is interesting about Han Solo? Is it that he isn't fully committed to the Rebellion? Or is it that he's wanted by bounty hunters and even name drops an intergalactic space gangster? Is it that he needs to learn to fit into the rank and file of an established command structure? Or is it that his vagrant past has likely left untold friends, enemies, and everything between in it's wake? Which story would be most interesting to follow up on???

Do the above analysis for Finn, and see if you can think of something, anything about Finn as presented in TFA that would be more interesting than re-affirming his allegiance to the rebellion. It's not a tough exercise

Also, if TLJ had been written any other way, dollars-to-donuts you would not be in this thread with the following hot take:

"You know what? It was great an all that they had Finn <choose one of the following>:

A: infiltrate FO recruitment and de-program his fellow former troopers to the Rebel cause,
B: clandestinely follow Rey to Ahch-To, discovering the location through shear will to reunite with her, only to discover an affinity for training with Luke (regardless of whether or not he's actually force sensitive)
C: get chased down by Phasma for being a deserter, resulting in a climactic final showdown that elevates both characters to prominent status going into the third movie and gets the attention of both the FO and the Rebellion
D: do literally anything else that actually builds on what we know of Finn from TFA in some meaningful way, those were just the three that immediately jumped to mind, they are not my "fan-fictions", they are some of many possible extensions of where TFA had Finn heading

but you know what really would have made this movie better, is if instead of doing the above, we got to see Finn learn to devote himself to the rebellion, you know, because it was kind of unclear exactly what his motivation was when he took that stand at the end of TFA... That's what I would've liked to see. I'd have liked to see Finn learn about the ills of arms of trading, not by actively thwarting some form of arms trading, but by being told about how bad it is, while hunting for a McGuffin that he would know about as a former FO member, while being lectured about why he should respect the rebellion more than he already seems to along the way. That's what this movie is missing"

Have you ever had that above thought about Han in ESB?

No, you would not be saying the above
Neither would John Boyega
Nobody would

I get it, you liked the movie and you want to defend it. There are things to like about the movie, and there are things worth defending. It's not my place to tell you you shouldn't like the movie.

But it's easy to see that there were more natural and interesting directions to take Finn's character. You can still like what they ended up doing, but I suspect there are plenty of alternate solutions you'd have liked just as much (or possibly more)
 
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Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
because leia is focused on saving the fleet, thus saving rey.

why would she worry about Rey specifically when everybody is in danger?



but starkiller base wasnt the whole FO, as the first death star wasnt the whole empire.

and honestly i agree with everybody that say "they could have go this way" yes they could but they didnt and there is nothing we can do about it now

Agreed though it doesn't mean that it wasn't a bad call or that Finns character wasn't short changed in TLJ. I think it's easily the mark of a poor decision for a character when even the people defending Finns TLJ arc are largely saying that they could have NOT done that and people wouldn't have felt anything was off about it. Ergo what was done with him was largely unnecessary, and in this case covered in TFA so much so that's redoing/emphasizing wasn't a great use of screen time. Even if it wasn't at all necessary, was it more necessary than any more interesting alternatives if you could have removed it and people would have been none the wiser?
 
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Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Agreed though it doesn't mean that it wasn't a bad call or that Finns character wasn't short changed in TLJ. I think it's easily the mark of a poor decision for a character when even the people defending Finns TLJ arc are largely saying that they could have NOT done that and people wouldn't have felt anything was off about it.

i guess that's the magic of JJ "mistery box" abrams. lol

the second movie could literally go in ANY ANY direction and nobody would have bat an eye.
 
Dec 22, 2017
7,099
"they could have go this way" yes they could but they didnt and there is nothing we can do about it now

Of course we can't do anything to change it, but I still like to discuss it. This is stuff I've wanted to get off my chest for like two years, but TLJ discussion is often so toxic I bail out. I actually like the Luke and Rey stuff, and Adam Driver is amazing as Kylo, but what happened to Finn was probably the most disappointed I have felt in a movie in my life.

i guess that's the magic of JJ "mistery box" abrams. lol

the second movie could literally go in ANY direction and nobody would have bat an eye.

LOL fair point.
 
Jan 3, 2018
3,448
If you think about it, Finn should be the character most willing to join up with the Resistance, having seen first hand the atrocities that the FO commits. Dude was abducted and indoctrinated. As soon as he sees the normal life he could have had, he should be in rage mode. And given his knowledge, the Resistance should be doing everything they can to make him happy.
 

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
If you think about it, Finn should be the character most willing to join up with the Resistance, having seen first hand the atrocities that the FO commits. Dude was abducted and indoctrinated. As soon as he sees the normal life he could have had, he should be in rage mode.

that may be, but he also wanting to get out ASAP its just as believable
 

Deleted member 11039

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,109
But the TLJ continues the story showing that the FO is actually not vulnerable but in an even more commanding position than before. They have the Resistance dead to rights and Finn is thinking about saving his skin or maybe jumping ship and finding Rey so they can get away from this new no-win situation. You kinda have to ignore the context of things in the new movie and the headspace Finn was in in the last movie to say that him not being super eager to join up isn't a valid avenue to explore for his character.

Yes that's the story TLJ chose to tell. This whole conversation is how TLJ chose to handle Finn's character and how Boyega and others don't seem to be fully on board with it.

The point I've been trying to make is that they could have taken Finn in any number of directions in TLJ, including him already being committed to the fight and it would have been just as believable. Finn could have just as easily woken up and raised morale by saying "hey we found a way to take down their base, we'll find a way out of this too" (taking inspiration from Han) or any number of a million other possibilities for the character. It would have totally been in character.

And I never said the direction they went wasn't viable. In fact I said TFA leaves enough wiggle room with him that TLJ's take is logical, just not terribly interesting. Having Finn wake up and again only be laser focused of Rey and wanting to run away was simply a choice TLJ made, not the only possible path.

i dont understand how this mean the FO is vulnerable

Blowing up their super duper mega weapon means they're literally vulnerable to attack. Being vulnerable does not mean they're doomed to loose the war. But it does mean that fighting back isn't pointless.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
i guess that's the magic of JJ "mistery box" abrams. lol

the second movie could literally go in ANY ANY direction and nobody would have bat an eye.

you are contradicting yourself. This is precisely the point, the second movie could literally go in ANY ANY direction (though the majority of directions would cause somebody to bat an eye, as TLJ did)

This is why blaming JJ "mistery box" abrams (lol) for the faults of TLJ as you seem to be doing, is so bizarre.

TLJ was free to go in many, many directions. TFA set some things up, and there were beats people expected to resurface, but the way those were handled are entirely up to TLJ's author. This is not J.J.'s fault.
This is what writing for a franchise, any franchise, all franchises, entails. This is how you write a phenomenal sequel like Empire.

Much like the improv game 'freeze', you are jumping in and taking over where someone else left off. The Golden rule of improv is "'Yes, and' not 'No, but'". Empire Strikes Back is 'Yes, and' in it's purest form.

Obviously a lot of this is up to interpretation, but how much of TLJ is 'No, but'? The opening of TLJ could arguably go down in history as one of the biggest 'No, but's in cinima, it's even framed as one...

see here:

consider the following:



Also, if TLJ had been written any other way, dollars-to-donuts you would not be in this thread with the following hot take:

"You know what? It was great an all that they had Finn <choose one of the following>:

A: infiltrate FO recruitment and de-program his fellow former troopers to the Rebel cause,
B: clandestinely follow Rey to Ahch-To, discovering the location through shear will to reunite with her, only to discover an affinity for training with Luke (regardless of whether or not he's actually force sensitive)
C: get chased down by Phasma for being a deserter, resulting in a climactic final showdown that elevates both characters to prominent status going into the third movie and gets the attention of both the FO and the Rebellion
D: do literally anything else that actually builds on what we know of Finn from TFA in some meaningful way, those were just the three that immediately jumped to mind, they are not my "fan-fictions", they are some of many possible extensions of where TFA had Finn heading

but you know what really would have made this movie better, is if instead of doing the above, we got to see Finn learn to devote himself to the rebellion, you know, because it was kind of unclear exactly what his motivation was when he took that stand at the end of TFA... That's what I would've liked to see. I'd have liked to see Finn learn about the ills of arms of trading, not by actively thwarting some form of arms trading, but by being told about how bad it is, while hunting for a McGuffin that he would know about as a former FO member, while being lectured about why he should respect the rebellion more than he already seems to along the way. That's what this movie is missing"

Have you ever had that above thought about Han in ESB?

No, you would not be saying the above
Neither would John Boyega
Nobody would

I get it, you liked the movie and you want to defend it. There are things to like about the movie, and there are things worth defending. It's not my place to tell you you shouldn't like the movie.

But it's easy to see that there were more natural and interesting directions to take Finn's character. You can still like what they ended up doing, but I suspect there are plenty of alternate solutions you'd have liked just as much (or possibly more)

If you think about it, Finn should be the character most willing to join up with the Resistance, having seen first hand the atrocities that the FO commits. Dude was abducted and indoctrinated. As soon as he sees the normal life he could have had, he should be in rage mode. And given his knowledge, the Resistance should be doing everything they can to make him happy.

Yes, inventing a new character wholesale to elucidate the evil's of the First Order to Finn based on her past experiences felt so tonally deaf. Let's not just have this new character trivialize all of our black lead's self determinism, let's have her trivialize the 25 years of slavery he's experienced as well