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Deleted member 290

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Was the reaction for Naito winning any less than it would have been 2 years ago? 4 years ago? I dunno, I think they knocked it out of the park.

Also, the gate for night 2 was always going to be lower;



And anyways, this argument is stupid and dumb because Naito would have likely got the belt much earlier, were it not for Nakamura leaving necessitating that Naito slot into the IC champ role.
 

Avengers23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,504
Lmao they literally are going with Brandi is two personalities on TV without airing the god awful Twitter sketches on TV?

So does Cody just see his wife being a crazy cult leader in TV and think huh weird?
Cody is Brock and doesn't watch Dynamite.
JkHc7br.gif
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,544
Six years to crown the most over person in your company is too long.
booking wise? you could definitely make a case that 2 years ago was the time to do it. But I think the detail and journey since then has been largely positive (including Jericho's best feud in any promotion in the time period!) So that's a wash or maybe 5% in favor of doing it 2 years ago.

Business wise there isn't even an argument that doing the double show this year with that move in mind, plus the intervening business they did and the followup interest it has generated.

So basically, ur wrong lmao


What makes him the best is that he booked the story for the company.

Best for Naito? Sure 2 years ago.

But because he waited. He got to establish Okada as the true GOAT by breaking the records. He got to close off the Okada/Omega story while it was nearly at its peak and he still got to make Naito's win special by having him win the IC and IWGP Heavyweight on back to back WK dome shows


Even when we think he's wrong, 2 years later he shows us he was always right.

And look what he pulled off last year despite losing Omega
 
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Serene

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,600
Serene Lee v Dijakovic confirmed for Takeover? we back to 5 matches then?

Lee vs Dijakovic
Broserweights vs TUE
Rhea vs Bianca
Gargano vs Balor
Ciampa vs Cole

I guess Dream vs Roddy will be a tv thing because I don't think they've ever done 6 matches at a Takeover?

btw how fucking tall is Charlotte anyway? Rhea is tall compared to most ladies and she STILL towers over her.

They already have six at this one. You forgot Tegan vs. Dakota in the street fight.
 

klonere

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,439
In the interests of not making this an extended Gedo circle-jerk I want to point to the Dragon Gate booking committee (it's probably Genki Horiguchi but my info is old on that) having an extraordinary three years.

Not too long ago, Dragon Gate tried one last time to force T-Hawk to the main event, after 2 other pushes that ultimately ended in failure. T-Hawk was setup as both a face and heel, and the crowd never took to him as an "ace" in either capacity. He was young, attractive, solid in ring, had sort of led his own unit (a big deal in DG) already and was very popular as a tag wrestler with Eita. But the over-push destroyed him. He never was able to string together enough high level singles performances to win over the crowd. The DG audience is notoriously fickle when it comes to young singles guys being put in the main event (they've had many, many failed aces in this mold). T-Hawk arguably got the most important non-title (and probably more important than any title) achievement in all of Dragon Gate to try and legitimize him - he was ultimately responsible for the disbanding of the Jimmyz, a unit that was together for 7, yes 7 years and was still very, very popular. This is "Brock beating Taker" level (not so much in the shock column more in the legacy column).

Anyway, T-Hawk wins the DG equivalent of the G-1, goes to the main event of the biggest show of the year, fails to garner any fan support at all, eats shit and loses to YAMATO. Push over, and now there isn't really anyone to pick up the mantle of "next big thing". Yoshino, DG's John Cena is clearly being setup for another run in an organic manner, because they are good at booking. But YAMATO holds onto the title for a long time. And then immediately after that biggest show of the year, Tozawa leaves. Remember when I said "next big thing". That was Tozawa. Extremely popular, but never held the big singles title. His departure cast a shadow over YAMATO's title reign and well, a lot of stuff happened after that.

- CK1, CIMA and Dragon Kid (CIMA is THE MAN more so than even Yoshino, he was Mr. Dragon Gate) had a record breaking tag title run that culminated in T-Hawk and Eita winning the belts together. Great right?
- CIMA, T-Hawk, Lindaman and a top future prospect Yamamura all leave to form STRONGHEARTS. There were questions that DG would even be able to survive this business wise. Booking wise it blew a gigantic hole in basically every single title scene and wiped out years of story.
- But Yoshino was right there to pick it up, right? John Cena with an organic build to save the company again after the traitor CIMA leaves. How about a presumed career ending neck injury instead?
- And who was on the other side of that terrifying incident? Shingo Takagi, another failed ace, the oppressive lead heel for the entire promotion for multiple years, HHH tier tyranny (with much, much better matches). Surely he could step up? Wrong. Put in a disaster of a long term, comedy (yes, a long term COMEDY feud with shingo takagi) agains Ryo Saito, murdering his heat and keeping him busy. And then he uh, leaves.
- Eita, T-Hawks partner, his Dean Ambrose to his Roman Reigns is thrust into the lead heel role. He's not ready, he gets lazy, his character isn't great, he has a never ending not good feud with Dragon Kid, he gets kinda fat. He's out for taking the top spot.

So we have nearly a year with YAMATO on top, presiding over a company in stasis, with young talent that's too fresh to do anything and everyone else is either hurt, or without momentum. It was looking *really* bad.

- Yoshino came back. A wrestling miracle. He should have retired (and is in fact, retiring this year due to that injury).
- Maasaki Mochizuki, maybe the most consistent wrestler on the planet at age old man, goes on a fantastic title run that re-invigorates the main event scene and gives the crowd something to feel good about. What's better than Dragon Gate's dad that everyone likes kicking people really hard and winning?
- Yoshino beats Mochi to complete his unbelievable comeback. People cry. John Cena at the 2007 Rumble type stuff, minus the backlash afterwards. We love it.
- KZY takes a huge step by getting his own, reggae themed, trance dancing unit and kills it in singles matches.
- Some young jacked dude called Ben-K starts spearing people and looks incredible for being in the bizness for a year.
- PAC comes back as a dastardly heel and starts a title reign that is so perfectly constructed it's a work of art, including a never before done and never since repeated (THEY DIDN'T RUN IT INTO THE GROUND!!) attacking his challenger during the Japanese national anthem.
- He hands off the title to Ben-K after having beaten a collection of DG's most beloved babyfaces. This is where it usually falls apart from DG - the crowd has a very strong record of rejecting this sort of thing. But they don't. Ben-K, at long last, after T-Hawk, after Shingo, after Doi, and many others, is finally a new generation ace for the promotion, instead of late 30s dude who has been there since the start.

But it's not that simple. Ultimo Dragon, the original founder of Dragon Gate (it's complicated), who trained the original class of stars and then split off like 3 times (it's complicated) and was politically persona non grata comes back. It was looking like a CM Punk title reign level derail (or uh, the Benoit WC run D:) with some old timer taking all the attention away from the main event. It kinda ended up working that way - for a bit. Ben-K ran through some big names, proving that he was a legitimate main eventer and not a flash in the pan they'd move off ASAP. But Ultimo was in all the main events. The biggest show of the year was revolving around him. Everything after it seemed to as well - clogging the top of the card with old-ass nostalgia acts that couldn't go, brother.

Remember all those failed babyfaces I was talking about? Naruki Doi was one of them. Pushed too hard, too fast. Not much of a character beyond "I'm a good guy, I'm going to try my best!". He's Naito - if Naito had been left out in the cold even longer, jobbed out in way more big singles title shots, and kind of relegated to a Goto esque role. Now, he had a big run as a heel but when he turned babyface the crowd *loved* him. He kept his edge, he'd found his voice on promos, his Doi Darts gimmick match is a yearly highlight, he's really good at wrestling and very handsome. He was the perfect blend of the guy that everyone likes, that everyone feels like deserves a shot at the main event, that is a viable main event attraction and that can put on matches that would be up to standard. When you think about guys in that vein, they generally don't tick all those boxes.

Doi-chan as champ ensures that people still care because everyone, especially the female portion of the audience LOVE him. Even in this new year, when it's essentially team Ultimo vs all the heels, Doi is keeping the title relevant.

So that's a fucking ton of words to poorly explain that Dragon Gate booking got themselves out of a horrific series of events, with big stars leaving, being injured and more to return the business to success and get the wrasslin back to that uber high standard for Dragon Gate.
 

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,653
Seems like it's about time for Undisputed to drop their titles. I say this as an enormous Undisputed Era fan--super long reigns are hard to deal with. I could see Cole keeping his title maybe, depending.
 

mattsdl

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,099
Germany
In the interests of not making this an extended Gedo circle-jerk I want to point to the Dragon Gate booking committee (it's probably Genki Horiguchi but my info is old on that) having an extraordinary three years.

Not too long ago, Dragon Gate tried one last time to force T-Hawk to the main event, after 2 other pushes that ultimately ended in failure. T-Hawk was setup as both a face and heel, and the crowd never took to him as an "ace" in either capacity. He was young, attractive, solid in ring, had sort of led his own unit (a big deal in DG) already and was very popular as a tag wrestler with Eita. But the over-push destroyed him. He never was able to string together enough high level singles performances to win over the crowd. The DG audience is notoriously fickle when it comes to young singles guys being put in the main event (they've had many, many failed aces in this mold). T-Hawk arguably got the most important non-title (and probably more important than any title) achievement in all of Dragon Gate to try and legitimize him - he was ultimately responsible for the disbanding of the Jimmyz, a unit that was together for 7, yes 7 years and was still very, very popular. This is "Brock beating Taker" level (not so much in the shock column more in the legacy column).

Anyway, T-Hawk wins the DG equivalent of the G-1, goes to the main event of the biggest show of the year, fails to garner any fan support at all, eats shit and loses to YAMATO. Push over, and now there isn't really anyone to pick up the mantle of "next big thing". Yoshino, DG's John Cena is clearly being setup for another run in an organic manner, because they are good at booking. But YAMATO holds onto the title for a long time. And then immediately after that biggest show of the year, Tozawa leaves. Remember when I said "next big thing". That was Tozawa. Extremely popular, but never held the big singles title. His departure cast a shadow over YAMATO's title reign and well, a lot of stuff happened after that.

- CK1, CIMA and Dragon Kid (CIMA is THE MAN more so than even Yoshino, he was Mr. Dragon Gate) had a record breaking tag title run that culminated in T-Hawk and Eita winning the belts together. Great right?
- CIMA, T-Hawk, Lindaman and a top future prospect Yamamura all leave to form STRONGHEARTS. There were questions that DG would even be able to survive this business wise. Booking wise it blew a gigantic hole in basically every single title scene and wiped out years of story.
- But Yoshino was right there to pick it up, right? John Cena with an organic build to save the company again after the traitor CIMA leaves. How about a presumed career ending neck injury instead?
- And who was on the other side of that terrifying incident? Shingo Takagi, another failed ace, the oppressive lead heel for the entire promotion for multiple years, HHH tier tyranny (with much, much better matches). Surely he could step up? Wrong. Put in a disaster of a long term, comedy (yes, a long term COMEDY feud with shingo takagi) agains Ryo Saito, murdering his heat and keeping him busy. And then he uh, leaves.
- Eita, T-Hawks partner, his Dean Ambrose to his Roman Reigns is thrust into the lead heel role. He's not ready, he gets lazy, his character isn't great, he has a never ending not good feud with Dragon Kid, he gets kinda fat. He's out for taking the top spot.

So we have nearly a year with YAMATO on top, presiding over a company in stasis, with young talent that's too fresh to do anything and everyone else is either hurt, or without momentum. It was looking *really* bad.

- Yoshino came back. A wrestling miracle. He should have retired (and is in fact, retiring this year due to that injury).
- Maasaki Mochizuki, maybe the most consistent wrestler on the planet at age old man, goes on a fantastic title run that re-invigorates the main event scene and gives the crowd something to feel good about. What's better than Dragon Gate's dad that everyone likes kicking people really hard and winning?
- Yoshino beats Mochi to complete his unbelievable comeback. People cry. John Cena at the 2007 Rumble type stuff, minus the backlash afterwards. We love it.
- KZY takes a huge step by getting his own, reggae themed, trance dancing unit and kills it in singles matches.
- Some young jacked dude called Ben-K starts spearing people and looks incredible for being in the bizness for a year.
- PAC comes back as a dastardly heel and starts a title reign that is so perfectly constructed it's a work of art, including a never before done and never since repeated (THEY DIDN'T RUN IT INTO THE GROUND!!) attacking his challenger during the Japanese national anthem.
- He hands off the title to Ben-K after having beaten a collection of DG's most beloved babyfaces. This is where it usually falls apart from DG - the crowd has a very strong record of rejecting this sort of thing. But they don't. Ben-K, at long last, after T-Hawk, after Shingo, after Doi, and many others, is finally a new generation ace for the promotion, instead of late 30s dude who has been there since the start.

But it's not that simple. Ultimo Dragon, the original founder of Dragon Gate (it's complicated), who trained the original class of stars and then split off like 3 times (it's complicated) and was politically persona non grata comes back. It was looking like a CM Punk title reign level derail (or uh, the Benoit WC run D:) with some old timer taking all the attention away from the main event. It kinda ended up working that way - for a bit. Ben-K ran through some big names, proving that he was a legitimate main eventer and not a flash in the pan they'd move off ASAP. But Ultimo was in all the main events. The biggest show of the year was revolving around him. Everything after it seemed to as well - clogging the top of the card with old-ass nostalgia acts that couldn't go, brother.

Remember all those failed babyfaces I was talking about? Naruki Doi was one of them. Pushed too hard, too fast. Not much of a character beyond "I'm a good guy, I'm going to try my best!". He's Naito - if Naito had been left out in the cold even longer, jobbed out in way more big singles title shots, and kind of relegated to a Goto esque role. Now, he had a big run as a heel but when he turned babyface the crowd *loved* him. He kept his edge, he'd found his voice on promos, his Doi Darts gimmick match is a yearly highlight, he's really good at wrestling and very handsome. He was the perfect blend of the guy that everyone likes, that everyone feels like deserves a shot at the main event, that is a viable main event attraction and that can put on matches that would be up to standard. When you think about guys in that vein, they generally don't tick all those boxes.

Doi-chan as champ ensures that people still care because everyone, especially the female portion of the audience LOVE him. Even in this new year, when it's essentially team Ultimo vs all the heels, Doi is keeping the title relevant.

So that's a fucking ton of words to poorly explain that Dragon Gate booking got themselves out of a horrific series of events, with big stars leaving, being injured and more to return the business to success and get the wrasslin back to that uber high standard for Dragon Gate.
That sounds quite good, thanks for writing this.
 

klonere

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,439
Your #3 and #4 guy come out of WK looking like dorks. And the double show was going to make a fuckton of money anyway. The gate made less money on Night #2 than it did on Night #1, even though Night #2 was the entire point.

Sooooo....nah. I'm not lol.

Wrong and wrong on dudes #3 and #4, Jay White and especially Kota Ibushi are not dorks in the eyes of any ticket paying fan. Losing a match doesn't make you a dork, unless you are viewing this through a brain poisoned WWE lens. It doesn't work like that in the sane world.

1 is bigger than 0, the fact they managed to get as big a crowd as they did on Night 2 is seriously impressive considering where the company and the entire Japanese wrestling scene is coming from. I'd be supremely confident in saying that only Naito/Okada would do those numbers on Night 2 and any other main event would have made less money - therefore it's still a business win.

Going back to your original point, Naito wasn't the most over guy in NJPW for 6 years - it's 4, 2016 is when he made the huge step forward. Okada wasn't truly the undisputed ace up until he beat Tana at WK - again, part of a long story. And Naito, in that time filled in a slot left by Nakamura, carried B-shows and A-shows, and made the IC title a thing still worth caring about.
 

SpaceSong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,023
Did I just read people arguing about why it doesn't makes sense for someone's loved one and wife to come out and be supportive/loving? Yeah she wasn't in character. But that was the point. This was bigger than silly characters. This was family being present for family. Like, yes. They're pivoting away from that bad angle and it doesn't seem to be over just yet in terms of us getting through that awful stories conclusion, but last night's moment wasn't about that. It was about Cody and Brandi still being able to have that human moment together.

It would be weirder if she didn't come out at all...
 
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Serene

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,600
Did I just read people arguing about why it doesn't makes sense for someone's loved one and wife to come out and be supportive/loving? Yeah she wasn't in character. But that was the point. This was bigger than silly characters. This was family being present for family. Like, yes. They're pivoting away from that bad angle and it didn't seem to be over just yet, but last night's moment wasn't about that. It was about Cody and Brandi still having that human moment together.

It would be weirder if she didn't come out at all...

You can't have it both ways. You can't make some things on the show "wrestling" and some things "bigger than wrestling" because then it makes all the other wrestling shit look even more manufactured.
 

SpaceSong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,023
You can't have it both ways. You can't make some things on the show "wrestling" and some things "bigger than wrestling" because then it makes all the other wrestling shit look even more manufactured.
If they are pivoting away from that angle then what does it matter? Their in canon reasoning is out there.
 
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Serene

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,600
If they are pivoting away from that angle then what does it matter? Their in canon reasoning is out there.

What sign is there that they are pivoting away, first of all?

And second, you can't go from one to the other that fast. It's just a jarring juxtaposition that doesn't work. Brandi can't be evil cult leader one week and loving wife of the top babyface the next. You need a lot more separation than that. Especially when it's leveraged so big in the arc of the segment.
 

Serpentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,728
In the interests of not making this an extended Gedo circle-jerk I want to point to the Dragon Gate booking committee (it's probably Genki Horiguchi but my info is old on that) having an extraordinary three years.

Not too long ago, Dragon Gate tried one last time to force T-Hawk to the main event, after 2 other pushes that ultimately ended in failure. T-Hawk was setup as both a face and heel, and the crowd never took to him as an "ace" in either capacity. He was young, attractive, solid in ring, had sort of led his own unit (a big deal in DG) already and was very popular as a tag wrestler with Eita. But the over-push destroyed him. He never was able to string together enough high level singles performances to win over the crowd. The DG audience is notoriously fickle when it comes to young singles guys being put in the main event (they've had many, many failed aces in this mold). T-Hawk arguably got the most important non-title (and probably more important than any title) achievement in all of Dragon Gate to try and legitimize him - he was ultimately responsible for the disbanding of the Jimmyz, a unit that was together for 7, yes 7 years and was still very, very popular. This is "Brock beating Taker" level (not so much in the shock column more in the legacy column).

Anyway, T-Hawk wins the DG equivalent of the G-1, goes to the main event of the biggest show of the year, fails to garner any fan support at all, eats shit and loses to YAMATO. Push over, and now there isn't really anyone to pick up the mantle of "next big thing". Yoshino, DG's John Cena is clearly being setup for another run in an organic manner, because they are good at booking. But YAMATO holds onto the title for a long time. And then immediately after that biggest show of the year, Tozawa leaves. Remember when I said "next big thing". That was Tozawa. Extremely popular, but never held the big singles title. His departure cast a shadow over YAMATO's title reign and well, a lot of stuff happened after that.

- CK1, CIMA and Dragon Kid (CIMA is THE MAN more so than even Yoshino, he was Mr. Dragon Gate) had a record breaking tag title run that culminated in T-Hawk and Eita winning the belts together. Great right?
- CIMA, T-Hawk, Lindaman and a top future prospect Yamamura all leave to form STRONGHEARTS. There were questions that DG would even be able to survive this business wise. Booking wise it blew a gigantic hole in basically every single title scene and wiped out years of story.
- But Yoshino was right there to pick it up, right? John Cena with an organic build to save the company again after the traitor CIMA leaves. How about a presumed career ending neck injury instead?
- And who was on the other side of that terrifying incident? Shingo Takagi, another failed ace, the oppressive lead heel for the entire promotion for multiple years, HHH tier tyranny (with much, much better matches). Surely he could step up? Wrong. Put in a disaster of a long term, comedy (yes, a long term COMEDY feud with shingo takagi) agains Ryo Saito, murdering his heat and keeping him busy. And then he uh, leaves.
- Eita, T-Hawks partner, his Dean Ambrose to his Roman Reigns is thrust into the lead heel role. He's not ready, he gets lazy, his character isn't great, he has a never ending not good feud with Dragon Kid, he gets kinda fat. He's out for taking the top spot.

So we have nearly a year with YAMATO on top, presiding over a company in stasis, with young talent that's too fresh to do anything and everyone else is either hurt, or without momentum. It was looking *really* bad.

- Yoshino came back. A wrestling miracle. He should have retired (and is in fact, retiring this year due to that injury).
- Maasaki Mochizuki, maybe the most consistent wrestler on the planet at age old man, goes on a fantastic title run that re-invigorates the main event scene and gives the crowd something to feel good about. What's better than Dragon Gate's dad that everyone likes kicking people really hard and winning?
- Yoshino beats Mochi to complete his unbelievable comeback. People cry. John Cena at the 2007 Rumble type stuff, minus the backlash afterwards. We love it.
- KZY takes a huge step by getting his own, reggae themed, trance dancing unit and kills it in singles matches.
- Some young jacked dude called Ben-K starts spearing people and looks incredible for being in the bizness for a year.
- PAC comes back as a dastardly heel and starts a title reign that is so perfectly constructed it's a work of art, including a never before done and never since repeated (THEY DIDN'T RUN IT INTO THE GROUND!!) attacking his challenger during the Japanese national anthem.
- He hands off the title to Ben-K after having beaten a collection of DG's most beloved babyfaces. This is where it usually falls apart from DG - the crowd has a very strong record of rejecting this sort of thing. But they don't. Ben-K, at long last, after T-Hawk, after Shingo, after Doi, and many others, is finally a new generation ace for the promotion, instead of late 30s dude who has been there since the start.

But it's not that simple. Ultimo Dragon, the original founder of Dragon Gate (it's complicated), who trained the original class of stars and then split off like 3 times (it's complicated) and was politically persona non grata comes back. It was looking like a CM Punk title reign level derail (or uh, the Benoit WC run D:) with some old timer taking all the attention away from the main event. It kinda ended up working that way - for a bit. Ben-K ran through some big names, proving that he was a legitimate main eventer and not a flash in the pan they'd move off ASAP. But Ultimo was in all the main events. The biggest show of the year was revolving around him. Everything after it seemed to as well - clogging the top of the card with old-ass nostalgia acts that couldn't go, brother.

Remember all those failed babyfaces I was talking about? Naruki Doi was one of them. Pushed too hard, too fast. Not much of a character beyond "I'm a good guy, I'm going to try my best!". He's Naito - if Naito had been left out in the cold even longer, jobbed out in way more big singles title shots, and kind of relegated to a Goto esque role. Now, he had a big run as a heel but when he turned babyface the crowd *loved* him. He kept his edge, he'd found his voice on promos, his Doi Darts gimmick match is a yearly highlight, he's really good at wrestling and very handsome. He was the perfect blend of the guy that everyone likes, that everyone feels like deserves a shot at the main event, that is a viable main event attraction and that can put on matches that would be up to standard. When you think about guys in that vein, they generally don't tick all those boxes.

Doi-chan as champ ensures that people still care because everyone, especially the female portion of the audience LOVE him. Even in this new year, when it's essentially team Ultimo vs all the heels, Doi is keeping the title relevant.

So that's a fucking ton of words to poorly explain that Dragon Gate booking got themselves out of a horrific series of events, with big stars leaving, being injured and more to return the business to success and get the wrasslin back to that uber high standard for Dragon Gate.
great post, I really gotta actively seek out more DG. really enjoyed the few shows i saw last year
 

SpaceSong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,023
What sign is there that they are pivoting away, first of all?

It's certainly not staying the same and Kong was "written off" to do GLOW, but the angle certainly feels like it's being twilighted.

And second, you can't go from one to the other that fast. It's just a jarring juxtaposition that doesn't work. Brandi can't be evil cult leader one week and loving wife of the top babyface the next. You need a lot more separation than that. Especially when it's leveraged so big in the arc of the segment.

I also don't get see how this diminishes other things on the show, tho? It diminishes a bad angle no one cares about and we got a human moment that makes sense in the context of -- yo those people are married.
 

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,653
Wrong and wrong on dudes #3 and #4, Jay White and especially Kota Ibushi are not dorks in the eyes of any ticket paying fan. Losing a match doesn't make you a dork, unless you are viewing this through a brain poisoned WWE lens. It doesn't work like that in the sane world.

I mean, you say that but every loss anyone besides SCU takes in AEW is "I can't believe they're booking this character that way"*, as if they can make everyone win all at the same time. With Jay White I'm a little biased 'cause I'm not a big fan and didn't really care how he came out of it looking. Arguably, he's "fine" though I would've been super fucking salty if Kenny Omega had been in that spot instead like he was supposed to be. But White really only lost a single match, he won the next night and is fine.

But Kota Ibushi? They really gotta drop that G1 angle. Like, "not quite ready" doesn't make sense for someone who survives the G1 as the champion. It's the hardest tournament in wrestling, if you win that's the definition of being ready IMO. That briefcase needs to go to something else, especially since it's like the opposite of the MITB. When was the last true winner? Tanahashi was supposed to drop too.

In any case, it was hard to watch both nights of that and not see Kota as like the ultimate geek. The only reason I don't is because he's Kota Fucking Ibushi, but that's got everything to do with his incredible in ring talent than it does the booking.

*Incidentally, this is probably why they're signing so many jobbers lately. Somebody's gotta take some fucking pins.
 

milamber182

Member
Dec 15, 2017
7,777
Australia
8-man tag was a banger. Hangman's storyline is amazing. The other matches were decent to good. Mox/Santana and Britt/Yuka beatdowns were well done but Cody/MJF was my favorite angle. They took their time and having roster members out there watching or supporting Cody added an air of importance to the segment.

NXT was great as usual. Garza is killing it right now. The roster is so stacked I forgot about Dream but it's nice to have him back. I love Undisputed Era but I'm ready for them to drop their titles and move to Raw or SD after Mania.
 

Deleted member 290

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,337
Is the dragon gate stream service still bad. I keep wanting to get into the promotion

It hasn't improved in any regard, except the number of old shows uploaded (including some Toryumon shows that were never released in full, only as clipped commercial tapes), but it streams fine, they have English commentary for the big events, and as long as you remember to watch new shows live or within two weeks of them airing, you're golden.
 
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Serene

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,600
I also don't get see how this diminishes other things on the show, tho? It diminishes a bad angle no one cares about and we got a human moment that makes sense in the context of -- yo those people are married.

Because it's lazy as fuck. You can't try to use reality when it suits you and ignore it when it doesn't, especially in a big moment like that with two acts that have been pushed in completely opposite directions and alignments for months on end.

It's haphazard to say "yeah Brandi has been a heel for months but she really is Cody's wife so why don't we just completely ignore all that shit and use her for sympathy". It's trying to use something real to excuse your fake dumb angle without explaining any of it and putting the onus on the viewer to be okay with it because "well, it's real unlike all the other stuff on the show".
 

milamber182

Member
Dec 15, 2017
7,777
Australia
Going back to Fight for the Fallen, Brandi cut a promo about self-sabotaging when she was ice skating, so she overcompensated by hiring Kong to make sure she wouldn't fail again.

Based on the "therapy" sessions, Brandi is probably mentally ill and the Nightmare Collective are phsyical versions of her fractured mind. It will be interesting to see if they tie Kong being written out to her mental state. But without Kong they might as well kill the Nightmare Collective completely.

I'm OK with her being out there to support Cody. People with mental illness can actual function as normal human beings.
 

Avengers23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,504
In the interests of not making this an extended Gedo circle-jerk I want to point to the Dragon Gate booking committee (it's probably Genki Horiguchi but my info is old on that) having an extraordinary three years.

Not too long ago, Dragon Gate tried one last time to force T-Hawk to the main event, after 2 other pushes that ultimately ended in failure. T-Hawk was setup as both a face and heel, and the crowd never took to him as an "ace" in either capacity. He was young, attractive, solid in ring, had sort of led his own unit (a big deal in DG) already and was very popular as a tag wrestler with Eita. But the over-push destroyed him. He never was able to string together enough high level singles performances to win over the crowd. The DG audience is notoriously fickle when it comes to young singles guys being put in the main event (they've had many, many failed aces in this mold). T-Hawk arguably got the most important non-title (and probably more important than any title) achievement in all of Dragon Gate to try and legitimize him - he was ultimately responsible for the disbanding of the Jimmyz, a unit that was together for 7, yes 7 years and was still very, very popular. This is "Brock beating Taker" level (not so much in the shock column more in the legacy column).

Anyway, T-Hawk wins the DG equivalent of the G-1, goes to the main event of the biggest show of the year, fails to garner any fan support at all, eats shit and loses to YAMATO. Push over, and now there isn't really anyone to pick up the mantle of "next big thing". Yoshino, DG's John Cena is clearly being setup for another run in an organic manner, because they are good at booking. But YAMATO holds onto the title for a long time. And then immediately after that biggest show of the year, Tozawa leaves. Remember when I said "next big thing". That was Tozawa. Extremely popular, but never held the big singles title. His departure cast a shadow over YAMATO's title reign and well, a lot of stuff happened after that.

- CK1, CIMA and Dragon Kid (CIMA is THE MAN more so than even Yoshino, he was Mr. Dragon Gate) had a record breaking tag title run that culminated in T-Hawk and Eita winning the belts together. Great right?
- CIMA, T-Hawk, Lindaman and a top future prospect Yamamura all leave to form STRONGHEARTS. There were questions that DG would even be able to survive this business wise. Booking wise it blew a gigantic hole in basically every single title scene and wiped out years of story.
- But Yoshino was right there to pick it up, right? John Cena with an organic build to save the company again after the traitor CIMA leaves. How about a presumed career ending neck injury instead?
- And who was on the other side of that terrifying incident? Shingo Takagi, another failed ace, the oppressive lead heel for the entire promotion for multiple years, HHH tier tyranny (with much, much better matches). Surely he could step up? Wrong. Put in a disaster of a long term, comedy (yes, a long term COMEDY feud with shingo takagi) agains Ryo Saito, murdering his heat and keeping him busy. And then he uh, leaves.
- Eita, T-Hawks partner, his Dean Ambrose to his Roman Reigns is thrust into the lead heel role. He's not ready, he gets lazy, his character isn't great, he has a never ending not good feud with Dragon Kid, he gets kinda fat. He's out for taking the top spot.

So we have nearly a year with YAMATO on top, presiding over a company in stasis, with young talent that's too fresh to do anything and everyone else is either hurt, or without momentum. It was looking *really* bad.

- Yoshino came back. A wrestling miracle. He should have retired (and is in fact, retiring this year due to that injury).
- Maasaki Mochizuki, maybe the most consistent wrestler on the planet at age old man, goes on a fantastic title run that re-invigorates the main event scene and gives the crowd something to feel good about. What's better than Dragon Gate's dad that everyone likes kicking people really hard and winning?
- Yoshino beats Mochi to complete his unbelievable comeback. People cry. John Cena at the 2007 Rumble type stuff, minus the backlash afterwards. We love it.
- KZY takes a huge step by getting his own, reggae themed, trance dancing unit and kills it in singles matches.
- Some young jacked dude called Ben-K starts spearing people and looks incredible for being in the bizness for a year.
- PAC comes back as a dastardly heel and starts a title reign that is so perfectly constructed it's a work of art, including a never before done and never since repeated (THEY DIDN'T RUN IT INTO THE GROUND!!) attacking his challenger during the Japanese national anthem.
- He hands off the title to Ben-K after having beaten a collection of DG's most beloved babyfaces. This is where it usually falls apart from DG - the crowd has a very strong record of rejecting this sort of thing. But they don't. Ben-K, at long last, after T-Hawk, after Shingo, after Doi, and many others, is finally a new generation ace for the promotion, instead of late 30s dude who has been there since the start.

But it's not that simple. Ultimo Dragon, the original founder of Dragon Gate (it's complicated), who trained the original class of stars and then split off like 3 times (it's complicated) and was politically persona non grata comes back. It was looking like a CM Punk title reign level derail (or uh, the Benoit WC run D:) with some old timer taking all the attention away from the main event. It kinda ended up working that way - for a bit. Ben-K ran through some big names, proving that he was a legitimate main eventer and not a flash in the pan they'd move off ASAP. But Ultimo was in all the main events. The biggest show of the year was revolving around him. Everything after it seemed to as well - clogging the top of the card with old-ass nostalgia acts that couldn't go, brother.

Remember all those failed babyfaces I was talking about? Naruki Doi was one of them. Pushed too hard, too fast. Not much of a character beyond "I'm a good guy, I'm going to try my best!". He's Naito - if Naito had been left out in the cold even longer, jobbed out in way more big singles title shots, and kind of relegated to a Goto esque role. Now, he had a big run as a heel but when he turned babyface the crowd *loved* him. He kept his edge, he'd found his voice on promos, his Doi Darts gimmick match is a yearly highlight, he's really good at wrestling and very handsome. He was the perfect blend of the guy that everyone likes, that everyone feels like deserves a shot at the main event, that is a viable main event attraction and that can put on matches that would be up to standard. When you think about guys in that vein, they generally don't tick all those boxes.

Doi-chan as champ ensures that people still care because everyone, especially the female portion of the audience LOVE him. Even in this new year, when it's essentially team Ultimo vs all the heels, Doi is keeping the title relevant.

So that's a fucking ton of words to poorly explain that Dragon Gate booking got themselves out of a horrific series of events, with big stars leaving, being injured and more to return the business to success and get the wrasslin back to that uber high standard for Dragon Gate.
Cheers for the Dragon Gate update.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,544
Your #3 and #4 guy come out of WK looking like dorks. And the double show was going to make a fuckton of money anyway. The gate made less money on Night #2 than it did on Night #1, even though Night #2 was the entire point.

Sooooo....nah. I'm not lol.

Is this a serious post.

You really trying to spin the 2 Dome nights as not a massive success?
 
OP
OP
Serene

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,600
Going back to Fight for the Fallen, Brandi cut a promo about self-sabotaging when she was ice skating, so she overcompensated by hiring Kong to make sure she wouldn't fail again.

Based on the "therapy" sessions, Brandi is probably mentally ill and the Nightmare Collective are phsyical versions of her fractured mind. It will be interesting to see if they tie Kong being written out to her mental state. But without Kong they might as well kill the Nightmare Collective completely.

I'm OK with her being out there to support Cody. People with mental illness can actual function as normal human beings.

If they were going to hinge the whole thing on Brandi's "mental illness" then idk maybe show like any of that on TV. Any of it at all. Ever.
 

Deleted member 290

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,337
Ibushi's getting the same treatment as Naito from 2013-2016 - he's the guy who can win big singles matches, but not when it really counts: when the IWGP title is on the line. He can beat Naito, Tanahashi, Okada and White one on one, but the only time he's made it count are vs Naito for the Intercontinental title and vs White in the G1 final. Okada was Naito's obstacle, but for Ibushi it's Tanahashi.

Gedo loves to use a clear obstacle towards a wrestler's growth, it's a recurring pattern throughout his time as booker and when Ibushi overcomes his obstacle in a definitive manner it'll be a signal that the audience recognises, overtly or subliminally, as an indication that Ibushi's ready.
 

SpaceSong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,023
Because it's lazy as fuck. You can't try to use reality when it suits you and ignore it when it doesn't, especially in a big moment like that with two acts that have been pushed in completely opposite directions and alignments for months on end.

It's haphazard to say "yeah Brandi has been a heel for months but she really is Cody's wife so why don't we just completely ignore all that shit and use her for sympathy". It's trying to use something real to excuse your fake dumb angle without explaining any of it and putting the onus on the viewer to be okay with it because "well, it's real unlike all the other stuff on the show".
But that story is running and they have their explanation. They didn't ignore anything. Just because it's not on TV doesn't mean it's not happening. Sure they have this stuff too separated out across platforms and that's a criticism in itself. But Brandi having this moment of clarity and normalacy wasn't without precedent.

I'm not a fan of the way their handling that angle, but that moment worked and you saying it's lazy or they didn't do the work to get there isn't accurate.

They run that segment of Brandi in therapy on TV people check out. No one cares. As long as the canon reasoning is out there, whatever. It's fair game. Sure it's better to do this stuff on TV but the angle is poison so I don't blame them relegating it to tertiary places. Sophomoric, yeah. But the moment they are trying to get over last night this was fine. It was brief and given it's moment and it was over. Not a huge kayfabe shattering deal.
 
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Serene

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,600
They run that segment of Brandi in therapy on TV people check out. No one cares. As long as the canon reasoning is out there, whatever. It's fair game. Sure it's better to do this stuff on TV but the angle is poison so I don't blame them relegating it to tertiary places.

Then, again, you can't have it both ways. You can't say "this angle sucks so we can't put it on TV" then simultaneously say "but we're still gonna use it as explanation for an otherwise illogical and nonsensical moment on the show". Either put the shit on TV and eat it to explain the angle or don't run any of it.

Again, picking and choosing when to use logic and when to ignore it is lazy storytelling full stop.
 

thefro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,996
On the subject of people who are bad in the ring...

I still can not for the life of me figure out what Tony Khan saw in Britt Baker.

She found herself a great heel character recently, but holy shit did Yuka ever expose her serious limitations tonight. She couldn't even bump properly for a snapmare, she just listlessly rolled sideways and Yuka had a confused look on her face and just put her in a real chin lock lmao.

Reminds me a lot of Brie Bella in the ring honestly.

Britt's constantly struggled with people she's not familiar with, especially any joshi wrestlers or people who mainly trained over there (Bea). You put her against Yuka for the first time on TV and it's going to misfire in the ring even if it was a good storyline pairing.

You put her in there with Tessa or Kylie Rae you get a good match. I assume her match against Chelsea Green in RISE was fine because they're friends, and she's been better against people who can work a traditional US style.

The problem with the AEW women's division is their initial scouting (outside of the joshi) was shit, both in who to hire to build a division and in knowing your talent's strengths/weaknesses to book them to succeed. The recent wave with Shanna/Big Swole/Statlander has been better but they still decided to bring in Melanie Cruise so I can't say it's fixed.

If they were going to hinge the whole thing on Brandi's "mental illness" then idk maybe show like any of that on TV. Any of it at all. Ever.

It's one of those things where that angle was so flawed that people are just happy they seem to be dropping it. Anyway they showed both the Brandi therapy things on AEW Dark.
 

Conrad Link

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,707
New Zealand
"You don't even go here." made me laugh.

I would have booked Undisputed to lose all their titles on one show. Progressively through the night they lose each one as the prophecy crumbles around them right up until the main event where they rally and Cole is all "WE'VE HAD A SHIT NIGHT BUT WE ARE NOT LOSING THIS ONE YOU HEAR ME?? I WILL BE CHAMP FOREVER!" so they all try and cheat every-which-way but in the end he loses to Tommaso. Can even tie it in with Cole turning on them or something cause they're 'useless'.

AEW was good, they've got several story lines running up and down the card, and I'm relatively invested in all of them. :O What a novel concept, really reminds me of the old days.

MAKE THE AKI GAME DAMN IT!
 
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OP
Serene

Serene

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
52,600
It's one of those things where that angle was so flawed that people are just happy they seem to be dropping it. Anyway they showed both the Brandi therapy things on AEW Dark.

Dark isn't TV. It's the equivalent of WWE running angles on their YouTube page.
 

SpaceSong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,023
Then, again, you can't have it both ways. You can't say "this angle sucks so we can't put it on TV" then simultaneously say "but we're still gonna use it as explanation for an otherwise illogical and nonsensical moment on the show". Either put the shit on TV and eat it to explain the angle or don't run any of it.

Again, picking and choosing when to use logic and when to ignore it is lazy storytelling full stop.
I chalk most of it up to them trying things. Put smaller segments with less interest elsewhere since more of their fans are likely following their social channels, see if it translates to the larger audience. I agree it's not the wisest tactic to take. But I doubt they'll learn that it didn't work in this instance because I feel most of the audience would much rather see Brandi in any other role than the one she had been trying.

I, for one, was happy to see the spot last night. Feels more natural. I do think Brandi should be more than just "popular guy's wife" but in the current story or was a welcome sight and a moment that worked fine for the, like, 20 seconds it lasted.
 
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