But North Korea is already crippled by sanctions, so what's the play there?
What?
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Kim-Trump Summit Thread - Fire and Fury Edition
- Thread starter Mar Tuuk
- Start date
But North Korea is already crippled by sanctions, so what's the play there?
What?
These are all possible terms for this very summit yet Trump decided to forgoe all of this and is focusing on nukes that NK will never surrender.
Given its historical context, yes. I have never heard "Nork" before. Does it have widespread derogatory usage or a violent history attached to it?
So, first, I'm finding your vocabulary pretty offensive, your obnoxious forum-lawyer tone slightly less so.
Anyway. North Korea is a completely closed society. The leaders are already presented as invincible demigods. The North Korean public isn't watching MSNBC and going "hmm wow Kim got a real win there, I'm gonna vote for him next election"
That's true, but also, maybe we all need to lower our guns slightly before we actually extricate ourselves from this standoff.
Not really. China placates the regime and allows them to evade sanctions. Iran was actually isolated by sanctions. Also Iran moderated politically before and that accountability of elections help charge the dissent over lack of economic progress.
The ultimate irony is that all of these "how DARE you be against denuclearization you warmonger" is that it buries the lead. NK having nukes is the only thing stopping Trump and the REAL warmongerers around him like Bolton and Pompeo from going to war with them tomorrow. They would pursue the Lybia solution without any hesitation.
Which is why NK will NEVER EVER EVER give their nukes up.
Which is why NK will NEVER EVER EVER give their nukes up.
Of course not, this is how a coward reacts when they know they just spewed BS.
Nork is best known as an Australian term for a breast and a Warhammer character
The Iran nuclear deal negotiations were very very different than what is going on here so far.
Yes, internal propaganda doesn't matter to the Norks, which is why they don't bother doing it....
Because with Iran a deal was actually being negotiated. Unlike here where things began and ended with a photo shoot.
The people in here arguing that "well at least this is a first step!" are arguing the geopolitical version of thinking an unpaid internship getting people coffee is the first step on the path to being a super star movie actor.
It has the history only ever being used by American warhawks describing North Korean people, who do not self-identify as 'Norks' and who to my knowledge don't use it among themselves even when speaking English. It's a dehumanizing epithet for a group of people, like "skinnies" or "ChiComs" or "Japs."
Here's a thread from an alt right shithole where people passionately argue that the word isn't racist, though
This is what I figured. The decapitation drills will cease (for now), but regular exercises will continue. If that's accurate, I'm ok with that.
Trump should have been significantly more clear on the matter... what else is new.
So, I find the term, "neoliberal" to be an epithet. Please avoid using it.
You're taking this pretty far to avoid answering simple questions
And a racial slur. That you gleefully keep using, because a lot of your position on North Korea comes from orientalist dehumanization of an oppressed people.
Yes, and the geopolitical contexts are every different too. Iran was never a 'hermit kingdom'
Do you think that the Kim regime would have somehow been overthrown by a popular movement if this photo op had not happened
This is "I identify as an attack helicopter" level argument and frankly gross.
Also I'm pretty sure I answered your question, if I missed some nuance among all the histrionics then please let me know
Maybe we can get away from the name calling and get back on the subject of the thread? The ignore function exists for a reason after all.
On topic, I think folks should read this twitter thread from the former director of Government Ethics (yes it's a real thing):
On topic, I think folks should read this twitter thread from the former director of Government Ethics (yes it's a real thing):
That... is a thread. The Homefront article helped frame it for me as well, I'll avoid the usage of that term.
Sure, but we can talk without going all the way and sending the President there for a 1:1 that he didn't even bother to prepare for and in which we gave up important bargaining chips for essentially nothing. And we can also talk without the President offering up effusive praise for a brutal dictator while parroting their propaganda points almost verbatim. Trump gave Un a wealth of material to propogandize.
Besides that, NK has offered a whole lot of talk to the outside world about "denuclearization" over the years and have signed similar agreements (actually with stronger verbiage than what Trump got here) only to go back on them with no second thought. Their word is about as good as Trump's at this point. I'd like to be wrong about that, but we need to hold Un accountable, not just fold over.
True progress is going to be made with SK, Japan, and China at the table. Trump running his dumb mouth isn't really going to help much. The President should be working to facilitate that kind of summit, instead he's going out there for a PR win and making agreements that he hasn't even run by our allies or the people within our own government. In this instance I believe we need to let our allies in the region take the lead, but for Trump everything has to revolve around him. The progress Moon has made is encouraging and the last thing I want to see is Trump fucking that up because of his ego.
Still curious to know if you really believe NK actually would give up their nukes, too.
You state they're a rational regime; they also engage in propaganda both internally and externally. They find value in it, so why are you denying it was a gift, for nothing in return but a photo-op?
what effect could NK's propaganda have on anyone outside of NK? No one outside of NK is looking at the situation and going "hmmm, that kim jong-un sure seems like a swell guy who's really got a good hold on his country." Or are you concerned about their propaganda on their own people? You think the people were on the brink of overthrowing the regime had it not been for this meeting?
Trump leaves the G7 abruptly like a child because Canada reacts to the tariffs HE enacted, admits he didn't prepare at all for this summit, nothing really happens at summit and Trump leaves the summit early. And now, Trumpeters and moderates are both wagging their fingers at any criticism with, "you got to give credit." This is insane.
You're making the same poor point that dusteatingbug is attempting:
If the regime is rational, as I assume you believe (correct me if I'm wrong), why would they engage in so much propaganda--internally and externally--if they didn't view it as a net benefit to their power over the NK people?
Do you think they're dumb? Or that they spend scarce resources for nothing?
The only way you stay "God Emperor" is by making sure you are never caught bleeding in public
A total exercise in bullshit that only gives the NK regime legitimately it oh so craves. And it's fucking Trump, absolutely nothing of worth will come from this.
The point is that the marginal utility of this photo op is extremely small, and worth trading for furthering the peace process.
IT'S clap NOT clap ABOUT clap CREDIT
What? No analogy is perfect, that's kind of the deal with analogies.
Negotiating with 'enemies' without preconditions is a good thing. Obama understood this. That doesn't mean that the diplomatic process with North Korea is going to be an exact 1:1 copy of the process with Iran.
The point is we got all the same concessions from them in the dozen other times we've been down this road, without having to give Un his propaganda win.
That you assess it to be of marginal value is why I used the term "armchair international negotiators", because the regime sure doesn't view it as a marginal win.
So what, though? We 'gave' him a meaningless token.
Also, again, you are also an armchair international negotiator like every single other person in this thread
edit - and that's not what I mean by marginal utility. I'm saying that North Korea is already in the iron grip of the regime, it is already a society built on Kim propaganda, so there is little additional value added for them to have this meeting. Like, the official NK party line is that the Kim family are all superhuman geniuses who built everything in the country and are essentially gods. It's not like somehow now people will start believing all that because they saw one fat moronic nepotism case shake hands with another.
It's also a good thing that the States should have done unilaterally years ago.
It would be, but it was not a real deal so there is no incentive to go with it. We can never accept that condition and won't.
It was really a waste of time for everyone. People talk about Kim being legitimized but a joint statement with vague wording of intent means absolutely nothing. As dumb as Trump is, what he says and what he does are two different things. It's easy to say something, it's hard work to do something. Therefore, somebody has to do it for him.
How does this meeting not undermine decades and decades of anti-america propaganda? Convince me this is a propaganda win for North Korea. Exactly what course of action would be more preferable than attempting negotiations for peace? Just don't do anything for the next 20+ years until we're forced to invade North Korea militarily?
They can, but if the US continues to keep sanctions and continues to keep military presence in the region, then what good does it actually do them?
Yeah you're right. It's about world peace and all the rational people know Trump is literally making impulsive top down decisions. There is no policy or strategy here. Which is worrying to those of us not drinking the kool aid
I mean, they're not even comparable in approach/process. Specifying talks with no preconditions with Iranian leadership is not the same as North Korea. Very different actions being addressed. GOP fears of appeasement are not what happened with Iran, but are what has happened so far here.
China is starting to say that they're looking at dropping sanctions. That's what it does.
And this. Trump has shown no ability to negotiate a halfway decent deal, can't even accurately communicate the most basic aspects of what they talked about, and pulled out of a pretty effective nuclear agreement with Iran. Luckily, there were six other nations signed onto that agreement so it's not completely trashed.
They're not all that educated if they support him. Or, they are, and are horrible people who enjoy lies and racism.
Un gets to secure himself from dissent showing how he forced the US to see them as equals. Plus that fresh video of Trump calling US/RoK joint exercises "provocation"
Even if NK walks away today they have secured a lasting propaganda victory.
If the ruling family is as paranoid as we've been told of coups and being overthrown, everything that was said by Trump elevating Kim Jong Un is a positive for them to keep people down. Why would this be so controversial?
So the early take is that North Korea didn't make any concessions that they haven't made before and didn't actually stick to , but this time they got to meet in person with the US president.
In case you don't know, it's a big deal for another world leader that's not considered an ally to meet with the US president. It's major when the world leader is a dictator that's back by China. Major win for North Korea and China today.
In case you don't know, it's a big deal for another world leader that's not considered an ally to meet with the US president. It's major when the world leader is a dictator that's back by China. Major win for North Korea and China today.
