Deleted member 17952

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I want FromSoft's next game to have an easy mode, but it actually does nothing. I'm curious if a placebo effect would happen.
Even if you doubled Sekiro's HP and damage, as long as the person isn't willing to engage with the mechanics, they will still not be able to beat the game and people will still whine.

And then the next argument will be, "Sekiro's Easy Mode is still not easy enough!"
 

Etrian Oddity

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Oct 26, 2017
3,429
I'm guessing that the overlap between people saying "The developer doesn't have to cater to you and compromise their vision!!!!!" and those that say "You're not a real gamer unless you love and beat Soulsborne games!!!!!!" is large.

Gamers love gatekeeping.

Also lol at the idea that any AAA game released in 2019 is a representation of a developer's pure and un-compromised vision. As of these things aren't created by hundreds of people with competing ideas, publishers that want things done a certain way, etc...
This is exactly the takeaway I get from it, too.
 

Ferrio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,225
Even if you doubled Sekiro's HP and damage, as long as the person isn't willing to engage with the mechanics, they will still not be able to beat the game and people will still whine.

Right, but it's "easy mode". Would people be less likely to give up/complain if they were told it was easy mode? Just interesting to think about.
 
Apr 21, 2018
6,969
I'd probably buy Bloodborne and Sekiro if they had easy modes.

Perhaps after a run on the easy mode, I'd feel comfortable with doing the normal. As it is now, Bloodborne just destroyed me, I got frustrated, and I stopped playing.

I agree. More options is always better.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
I understand what you're saying, but I'm genuinely wondering. "Summoning people robs you of the full experience" has been a prevailing thought in the Souls community for a *long time*, so if people argue for a developers artistic vision while rejecting a major mechanic within the game how genuinely are they really defending their vision vs gatekeeping their hard game?

I think it's a valid question to ask

I think summoning does remove some of the experience by definition, as you aren't going to experience most of what enemies do and how they fight if they aren't even looking at you for most of the battle, but I wouldn't say "You can't play a souls game if you summon" because that would indeed be childish and gatekeeping. But I don't think you'll find too many people who hold that opinion as much as you'll find people who think souls fans hold that opinion.
 

Deleted member 888

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I want FromSoft's next game to have an easy mode, but it actually does nothing. I'm curious if a placebo effect would happen.

It would, but to what statistical relevance we wouldn't know unless properly tested. People already think if you come online to a forum and vent, it magically helps you do something the next time around (it can, but not because of... "magic").

When really it's just a state of mind. Get your anger out, calm down, focus and try again. Using a forum to vent often has the consequence of calming you down, which in turn raises your attention, focusses you and often helps you through a situation.

With any game challenge, it's a combination of muscle memory, learning a pattern and remaining calm and composed. The more worked up you are, the less likely you are to succeed.

Thinking you are playing on an easier difficulty will heighten your expectation of succeeding and calm you down, to varying degrees between individuals.

Though with games like these there will always be some muscle memory and pattern learning needed. Pretty much no one plays any Souls-like game the very first time from start to finish and doesn't die. Especially for blind-boss battles. If you don't know any of the boss moves, chances are you're getting fucked first time (at least).
 

Deleted member 2834

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Ew, another article ''Fromsofware made a game too hard for me''
None of the From games are too hard for me and those arguing in favor of fewer options, even though the existence of said options would change fuck all about their own experience with the games, make me question my sanity. I'm still waiting for the list of games ruined by the addition of an easy difficulty, because as far as I'm concerned, the article's title is a plain fact. PLEASE demonstrate how the Ninja Dog mode in NG, or the added difficulty options in the later entries of Etrian Odyssey (which are hard as balls games) were to the detrimental to these games. This is peak gatekeeping.

I think few people are saying, there ought to be a difficulty slider in every game or that every game should be accessible for everyone, although I still find that stance more plausible than whatever the anti-difficulty-setting crowd is on about, but if I had the choice? Sure, give me all the options you got. I'll play the classic difficulty and now more people get to enjoy the game as well.
 

Altera

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,963
I wonder how many people saying "let the devs keep to their vision" would lose their minds if From Software's next game included an easy mode. If they chose to add one, that would be part of their vision, yet I'm sure there would be a large number of people complaining about its existence.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
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Apr 16, 2018
44,727
On a personal note I think its funny how most games are super easy nowadays and once every two years one challenging game hard game comes out and people just lose their shit over it. Here is a badly put together string of thoughts on the subject.

Every "easy" game has people asking for harder modes. Happened with KH 3, NNK 2, DQ 11 and almost every Nintendo franchise.

It's not wrong to ask the opposite.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,694
I'm guessing that the overlap between people saying "The developer doesn't have to cater to you and compromise their vision!!!!!" and those that say "You're not a real gamer unless you love and beat Soulsborne games!!!!!!" is large.

Gamers love gatekeeping.

These generalizations really aren't fruitful for any discussion. If you're taking issue with a particular poster's reasoning why not confront them specifically instead of perpetuating this "us vs. them" nonsense.
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
You do realize that the Souls community is one of the most helpful and supportive out there? Just look at the Sekiro OT. No mocking, malicious 'git gud' taunting or anything. Sorta contradicts this "gatekeeping" narrative people are trying too hard to push.
I mean git gud is most commonly associated with Souls. I agree the community here is good, but idk if that's indicative of the community as a whole
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,393
I understand what you're saying, but I'm genuinely wondering. "Summoning people robs you of the full experience" has been a prevailing thought in the Souls community for a *long time*, so if people argue for a developers artistic vision while rejecting a major mechanic within the game how genuinely are they really defending their vision vs gatekeeping their hard game?

I think it's a valid question to ask

At that point yes, I'd say you're just gatekeeping. The game is what it is and is there for players to use.
 

NippleViking

Member
May 2, 2018
4,525
I mean, what do we want an easy mode in Sekiro to do? Decrease the amount of damage enemy attacks deal to you? What's this do though? Eventually you're gonna have to learn how to play the game. There's certain bosses that you genuinely wouldn't be capable of defeating without knowing how to deflect well, like big Voldo.
Exactly this. Less damage taken, or even just a more generous parry windows, etc. They don't have to modify the core gameplay experience, and dedicate thousands of man hours to reprogramming AI behaviour and damage values. Just a few small tweaks to make the game less punishing for those who want to experience these titles at a more accommodating pace. I want to play the Soulsborne games, but the difficulty curve is too steep (and frustrating) for me to invest my limited weekly spare time into.

Thinking that an easy mode might undermine these games has always seemed silly to me.
 

Deleted member 17952

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I mean git gud is most commonly associated with Souls. I agree the community here is good, but idk if that's indicative of the community as a whole
You've never been to r/Bloodborne or r/DarkSouls? Those are some of the best communities in Reddit. Souls community in general are very welcoming to those who are seeking for help. The "Git Gud" response is usually mockingly reserved for people who go "this game is bad because X is too hard!"
 

'3y Kingdom

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,496
On a personal note I think its funny how most games are super easy nowadays and once every two years one challenging game hard game comes out and people just lose their shit over it.
That's not just because games are easier, if indeed they are; it''s because games are generally more accessible, so the exceptions stand out. And why shouldn't they be more accessible? We're not dealing with the nearly self-explanatory simplicity of two dimensions, two main buttons, and a control pad anymore.
You do realize that the Souls community is one of the most helpful and supportive out there? Just look at the Sekiro OT. No mocking, malicious 'git gud' taunting or anything. Sorta contradicts this "gatekeeping" narrative people are trying too hard to push.
I don't know about OT2, but there was a good deal of smugness in the original thread. Not that this is unique to Sekiro, of course.
 

Glass Arrows

Member
Jan 10, 2019
1,414
I understand what you're saying, but I'm genuinely wondering. "Summoning people robs you of the full experience" has been a prevailing thought in the Souls community for a *long time*, so if people argue for a developers artistic vision while rejecting a major mechanic within the game how genuinely are they really defending their vision vs gatekeeping their hard game?

I think it's a valid question to ask

People who INSIST you should never summon are legit gatekeeping assholes and their opinions should be discarded. I don't agree with the arguments for excluding accessibility options, but I don't think most of the people with that position here actually think summoning is a bad mechanic or that people shouldn't use it.
 

Nameless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,531
I understand what you're saying, but I'm genuinely wondering. "Summoning people robs you of the full experience" has been a prevailing thought in the Souls community for a *long time*, so if people argue for a developers artistic vision while rejecting a major mechanic within the game how genuinely are they really defending their vision vs gatekeeping their hard game?

I think it's a valid question to ask

PvP/Summoning/Covenants are part of the lore.
Summoning for aid also opens up your game to be invaded by murderous PvP veterans. This is all part of the wider experience, and if anything reinforces Miyazaki's stance on difficulty.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
Surely an Easy setting that makes you take 25% less damage or something is easy to do?

It would be easy to do and functionally useless in a game where you die in 4-5 hits (or 2-3 in Sekiro's case) anyway. People would want it even easier. My opinion is that they want a mode where they don't have to learn the combat. Which, fine, if that happens then it won't affect my enjoyment of the default mode at all, but to imply that the game is worse for not having that option from the beginning is just misguided.
 

enkaisu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,414
Pittsburgh
Easy mode never ruined a game, but maybe demanding a developer to compromise the experience they want people to have would. Games are art just as much as they are entertainment and the creators shouldn't be shamed for making their game in a very specific way.
 

Damerman

Banned
Jun 9, 2018
850
I think summoning does remove some of the experience by definition, as you aren't going to experience most of what enemies do and how they fight if they aren't even looking at you for most of the battle, but I wouldn't say "You can't play a souls game if you summon" because that would indeed be childish and gatekeeping. But I don't think you'll find too many people who hold that opinion as much as you'll find people who think souls fans hold that opinion.
i agree with this. there have been instances where summoning felt like it cheapened the experience for me, and there have been time where i felt it enhanced the experience. I don't know if enemies scale, i think they do(because i spent a week summoning people to help me beat ornstien and smough, but i ended up beating them by myself) and i can't tell if From intended for the game to be easier with the addition of summoning. Regardless, there are no difficulty options.. and if its there, its just another tool that the player has at their disposal...
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,817
On a personal note I think its funny how most games are super easy nowadays and once every two years one challenging game hard game comes out and people just lose their shit over it. Here is a badly put together string of thoughts on the subject.
I think that's where a lot of the defensiveness comes from. Demon Souls etc. stand out because they are uncompromising while the AAA market generally aims to never punish the player too much. To have a game from the ground up designed as "hard mode" is simply a more refined and balanced challenge than switching to mercenary difficulty in Call of Duty.
 

Nameless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,531
I mean git gud is most commonly associated with Souls. I agree the community here is good, but idk if that's indicative of the community as a whole

Every community has bad apples. And it's a meme that extends far beyond Souls at this point. Not everyone who uses it, even in related discussions, represents the community.
 

Deleted member 888

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I wonder how many people saying "let the devs keep to their vision" would lose their minds if From Software's next game included an easy mode. If they chose to add one, that would be part of their vision, yet I'm sure there would be a large number of people complaining about its existence.

Depends on what game they make. No one here "loses their minds" in the God of War GOTY topic. It just seems out of the whole industry that exists, nearly ever time this topic comes up it's exclusively focussing on From Software. Like, it's not okay for one main dev to exist that creates linear games when it comes to challenge? We've got to find the one dev that bucks a trend of nearly every modern game coming with story, easy, normal, hard, hardcore, etc and have at them with ableist accusations getting thrown around?

If we're talking Dark Souls 4, well, at the very least it will have to be shown how 4 player co-op can be achieved with the difficulty potentially set on 4 different settings between summons. Unless you only get matchmaking with the same difficulty?

You see, for the drive-by posts in here just saying "add easy mode From or you're being elitist", there is actually some game design to consider with a game that has drop in/out summoning and invading. Sekiro doesn't have that, but the core game obviously continues in the steps of From's basic ethos.
 

MetalBoi

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Dec 21, 2017
3,176
One thing that bothers me is their is an easy mode for the newest FS game on PC. Why can't consoles get in on this?
 

aerozombie

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Oct 25, 2017
1,075
WoW is a Multiplayer game with persistent social features - it's a rough comparison.
Soulsborne is a multiplayer game with persistent social features, or is that forgotten since sekiro was SP?

Also, we're just talking about games made worse by becoming easier and WoW is a clear example: as it is a game and its simplification and the capacity to do content at easier levels killed it
 

Damerman

Banned
Jun 9, 2018
850
I think that's where a lot of the defensiveness comes from. Demon Souls etc. stand out because they are uncompromising while the AAA market generally aims to never punish the player too much. To have a game from the ground up designed as "hard mode" is simply a more refined and balanced challenge than switching to mercenary difficulty in Call of Duty.
absolutely. jack of all trades, master of none.
 

XaviConcept

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Oct 25, 2017
5,071
That's not just because games are easier, if indeed they are; it''s because games are generally more accessible, so the exceptions stand out. And why shouldn't they be more accessible? We're not dealing with the nearly self-explanatory simplicity of two dimensions, two main buttons, and a control pad anymore.

I don't know about OT2, but there was a good deal of smugness in the original thread. Not that this is unique to Sekiro, of course.

More accessibility is great! Depending on the size of the dev and the budget it can be very challenging to allow dev time that caters for a small section of the audience but more could be done at a system OS level
 

Deleted member 32374

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Easy mode never ruined a game, but maybe demanding a developer to compromise the experience they want people to have would. Games are art just as much as they are entertainment and the creators shouldn't be shamed for making their game in a very specific way.

They also are not immune from criticism that some people may feel is unfair because they liked their game. :shrug:

The kotaku article listed games like DMC 5, Halo and Wolfenstein II as games which offered difficult modes, which despite the "intention" the devs lead to a different and positive experience for players. I very much agree with the entire article and especially the following sentence;

Games, like just about every other art form, don't always explain their creator's intent. Not all of it. That's for us to sort out. And there's nothing wrong with letting more of us try.

Nothing can be ruined by someone playing a game on an easier mode. Who is to say that a more difficult mode or a new game plus mode does not ruin the intent?
 

Deleted member 2550

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One thing that bothers me is their is an easy mode for the newest FS game on PC. Why can't consoles get in on this?
Are you referring to mods? If so, the answer is because the developers supposedly did not feel like baking in the god mode switch into the game. Same reason they didn't design difficulty options most likely.
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
Every community has bad apples. And it's a meme that extends far beyond Souls at this point. Not everyone who uses it, even in related discussions, represents the community.
You're right, but I don't think it would be as heavily associated with Souls if it wasn't, at a time, used in earnest. It's definitely softened and the communities are kinder now, but around the first Dark Souls that kind of hardcore mindset was very real

I forgot why I even brought this up and don't mean to detract from the thread further, tho
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
Soulsborne is a multiplayer game with persistent social features, or is that forgotten since sekiro was SP?

Also, we're just talking about games made worse by becoming easier and WoW is a clear example: as it is a game and its simplification and the capacity to do content at easier levels killed it
That's not really an easy mode tho, that's just making it easier. The discussion where having is an option, not a universal lowering of difficulty across games
 

Radrigal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
163
Just a thought: what if every game in existence had an easy mode? Wouldn't it help other games, but fundamentally change the design philosophy of others? Sure having an easy mode "never" ruins a game, but it changes its identity as a game.

What would be Pokémon's easy mode? Unlimited pp? Instant captures?
How about X-Com? 100% chance to hit for your squad and enemies having 75% chance to miss?

Maybe game devs can balance the game for easy mode but for some games it would change the whole gameplay aspect turning it to a whole different game.

This doesn't apply to all games I know, but it's a big deal for games that count.

If a person found themselves having difficulty with the base building aspect of an RTS game, and wishes easy mode would remove it completely, its not even an RTS anymore, and so why even bother playing it? I think this is many people sentiments when they say "not every game is for you."
 

Altera

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
1,963
Depends on what game they make. No one here "loses their minds" in the God of War GOTY topic. It just seems out of the whole industry that exists, nearly ever time this topic comes up it's exclusively focussing on From Software. Like, it's not okay for one main dev to exist that creates linear games when it comes to challenge? We've got to find the one dev that bucks a trend of nearly every modern game coming with story, easy, normal, hard, hardcore, etc and have at them with ableist accusations getting thrown around?

If we're talking Dark Souls 4, well, at the very least it will have to be shown how 4 player co-op can be achieved with the difficulty potentially set on 4 different settings between summons. Unless you only get matchmaking with the same difficulty?

You see, for the drive-by posts in here just saying "add easy mode From or you're being elitist", there is actually some game design to consider with a game that has drop in/out summoning and invading. Sekiro doesn't have that, but the core game obviously continues in the steps of From's basic ethos.
If it was Dark Souls 4 for example, and they did add an easy mode, I do feel there would be a lot of people complaining.

Things like summons would be easily managed with exactly what you said, matchmaking based on difficulty. I don't think From is being elitist by not having it, I think the "git gud" people are, however. There's no denying a lot of people have huge ego's when it comes to From Software's games.
 

Vostranoid

Member
Oct 27, 2017
52
I wish most games would stop having " difficulty modes" and just create a well designed, balanced, and to the degree that the developer desires, challenging experience.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
i agree with this. there have been instances where summoning felt like it cheapened the experience for me, and there have been time where i felt it enhanced the experience. I don't know if enemies scale, i think they do(because i spent a week summoning people to help me beat ornstien and smough, but i ended up beating them by myself) and i can't tell if From intended for the game to be easier with the addition of summoning. Regardless, there are no difficulty options.. and if its there, its just another tool that the player has at their disposal...

It does scale HP up for most bosses. I think there are bosses and levels where summoning seems like the intended solution (Lud and Zallen, Burnt Ivory King, and the gank squad in DS2) and times when it just makes the level so laughably easy that it kind of cheapens the effect of having an imposing fight to me (Artorias, Gascoigne). BUT, I wouldn't hold it against people for doing it, just like I don't care if people Cheat Engine their way through Sekiro. I just don't think the option NEEDS to be there.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
44,727
If a person found themselves having difficulty with the base building aspect of an RTS game, and wishes easy mode would remove it completely, its not even an RTS anymore, and so why even bother playing it? I think this is many people sentiments when they say "not every game is for you."

But there are easy modes on RTS, that's how I spent my childhood playing Age of Empires lol
 
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BrickArts295

GOTY Tracking Thread Master
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Oct 26, 2017
14,151
Surely an Easy setting that makes you take 25% less damage or something is easy to do?
I think the problem with that is it that it wouldnt make much of a difference with the way Sekiro is designed. You could still get wrecked even if you do more damage or take less damage.

This whole thread reminds of that time BB got a glitch that was known as an unintentional "easy mode". Basically if you left your PS4 running with BB even during rest mode, the game ran out of memory, which would affect almost all enemies and bosses and made them use only their less flashy (hard hitting) attacks. Mind you the was still tough, but it definitely have you a fighting chance. I remember the glitch made Martyr Logarious, WAY more easier to approach in a 1v1 Battle since he only used his weak attacks.
 

pants

Shinra Employee
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,413
Surely an Easy setting that makes you take 25% less damage or something is easy to do?

If the "easy" difficulty lowers damage by 25% and players still can't beat it, do you create an additional difficulty (super easy?) that lowers damage by 50%? What happens when some players still can't beat that?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for getting rid of "easy" difficulty settings - but for the sake of this discussion I just don't understand where we are supposed to draw the line and declare the game finally easy enough, because hypothetically there will always have players who still can't beat the game no matter what you do.

IMO, using your example, players should straight up be able to customize the experience to their own liking via optional settings, and acknowledge that they are not playing the game as it was meant to be played so they might as well play to their liking.

The Final Fantasy VII "remaster" has tons of optional settings which - despite invalidating/trivializing core aspects of the original game - allow the player to curate their own experience to their liking, and I think thats okay so long as it doesn't affect other players in a multiplayer environment
 
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LiQuid!

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,986
I wonder how many people saying "let the devs keep to their vision" would lose their minds if From Software's next game included an easy mode. If they chose to add one, that would be part of their vision, yet I'm sure there would be a large number of people complaining about its existence.
I sincerely hope they make an "easy mode" and it's just the same default difficulty their games are currently at, and then the "normal" mode is the same as the optional mode you can activate (in some of their games) by talking to a statue or whatever that actually makes the game even more brutal. That would really show all the CASULS!
 

Hokey

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,164
Why would simply getting to the end of the game be the goal of anyone playing a From game, if they didn't have challenges to overcome? The games are like puzzles, and they're meant to be solved, not simply looked at and then put back on the shelf. Anyway, just about every From game ends with a sub-one-minute cutscene of characters saying, essentially, "Welp, this is the end of the game. Maybe something else will happen in the future," so it's strange to me that anyone would argue these games need to be beatable so people can see the story when what storytelling is there is just barely enough to hold a story together in the first place.

Exactly! This thread is basically 1 half people saying "ppl should be allowed to see the end of the game despite their skill level" with the other half trying to tell them that "story is not what the game is about". To me it's about failing and retrying, "Git Gud" was just players summarizing what is required to enjoy the game. I've had to fight some of these bosses 50+ times because I'm not a very skilled gamer but I love these games enough to persevere through it.

I lost count of how many times I died to this boss but barely scraping through was one of the biggest fist pump moments, I actually wish more people would persevere enough to experience this feeling. At the end there it was literally do or die, I had no other options left:

 

Radrigal

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
163
But there are easy modes on RTS, that's how I spend my childhood playing Age of Empires lol

I agree with this, although easy mode for me was using cheats in warcraft 2 and starcraft.

Maybe devs should bring back in game cheats for people that just want to blaze through a game. I'd rather have cheats than have an easy mode.