Kotaku: An easy mode has never ruined a game

[NervousXtian]

21 pages of people arguing over something that's a truth in gaming.

I don't got time to get good at Sekiro.. so I won't play. That's a lost sale for them. I love From's world building.. it's just I don't got time to dedicate to a game like that now. I don't mind dying, but I'm getting older.. my reflexes aren't as good.. a less challenging mode would get me to play it.

..but apparently that butt hurts people who seem to play FS games for some internet cred instead of just for enjoyment.

 

[MetalBoi]

Just add in difficulty modes and more people can buy and play your games. Easy solution, more sales.

 

[Remember]

It's true. A ton of otherwise fun games fall apart on hard mode. And same goes for easy mode.

Some even fuck up the default difficulty...

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Speaking of this and looking at your avatar, how was Nier Automata on harder difficulties? Haven't played it yet. Usually character action games are the few to get it right.

 

[Village]

I agree.

Whether the devs see this as their vision for the they are releasingis another story. But generally I agree, and I would add, don't make fun of players for choosing easier diffuclties , I always found that tacky

 

[Haze]

I wonder how many people saying "let the devs keep to their vision" would lose their minds if From Software's next game included an easy mode. If they chose to add one, that would be part of their vision, yet I'm sure there would be a large number of people complaining about its existence.

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If that's what they choose to do that's fine with me. I personally see no issue with accommodations as long as they aren't influencing the way the game is designed. Which I doubt would happen.

Sekiro as far as I know is the first from game that offers full button remapping and that is a good step in that direction.

 

[MonthOLDpickle]

Is this about people not wanting to learn mechanics of some certain set of games? Not everything can be brute forced (which sadly what most gaming has taught us). If it about achievements you can make difficulty ones. Though in Sekiro..what would be easy mode, almost god mode cheat like thing? They at least put spawn point near bosses this time around.

 

[Xaszatm]

I mean, how about this, instead of things like easy mode or hard mode, what if there was a practice arena? I know we have the Undying in Sekiro but what if after every enemy there was a practice arena where you could face them again? And only in this practice arena could you manipulate parameters like no health loss or no stamina loss or even making time 1/2x or 3/4x speed. The requirement that you need to defeat the enemy prevents you from cheesing bosses first try while also teaching you how to optimize against the opponent without affecting the actual game.

 

[enkaisu]

They also are not immune from criticism that some people may feel is unfair because they liked their game. :shrug:

The kotaku article listed games like DMC 5, Halo and Wolfenstein II as games which offered difficult modes, which despite the "intention" the devs lead to a different and positive experience for players. I very much agree with the entire article and especially the following sentence;

Nothing can be ruined by someone playing a game on an easier mode. Who is to say that a more difficult mode or a new game plus mode does not ruin the intent?

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What's there to criticize about a developer or creator wanting people to have a specific experience in the first place?

It's ultimately up to the creators to decide if difficulty options compromise their game's experience or intent. If a game has difficulty options then obviously the developers are okay with providing it and aren't worried about the core experience being undermined and that's great. If From Software or any other creators think offering difficulty options undermines their game then they're absolutely allowed to feel that way and not include such options.

 

[Deleted member 1120]

21 pages of people arguing over something that's a truth in gaming.

I don't got time to get good at Sekiro.. so I won't play. That's a lost sale for them. I love From's world building.. it's just I don't got time to dedicate to a game like that now. I don't mind dying, but I'm getting older.. my reflexes aren't as good.. a less challenging mode would get me to play it.

..but apparently that butt hurts people who seem to play FS games for some internet cred instead of just for enjoyment.

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Or people have fun with the game and don't care that you don't buy it.

 

[signal]

please just add armored core's human plus system to every game.

 

[Rosebud]

I agree with this, although easy mode for me was using cheats in warcraft 2 and starcraft.

Maybe devs should bring back in game cheats for people that just want to blaze through a game. I'd rather have cheats than have an easy mode.

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There's cheats/trainers on PC, but not on consoles unfortunately. Would be a good solution, Celeste did this.

 

[Xaszatm]

Is this about people not wanting to learn mechanics of some certain set of games? If it about achievements you can make difficulty ones. Though in Sekiro..what would be easy mode, almost god mode cheat like thing? They at least put spawn point near bosses this time around.

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Maybe things like queues? Like enemies have a small flash near them when you can parry their attacks (unless they have them already (I'm still on Bloodborne forgive me))

 

[Deleted member 32374]

So, no one has anything else to discuss except From Software games. No experience with how an accessibility mode meant a lot to you personally or a loved one in another game? How such modes are covered in the games media? How such modes can further diversify gaming for the next generation?

No? Just a From Software thread, again, the third in a week? It must be nice to drop in, discuss this a bit whenever the latest from software game has dropped then forget about all these issues once your done with the game.

Anything to say about this topic OP? Calling BAD. Come in over. You made the thread then bounced.

 

[Deleted member 2550]

please just add armored core's human plus system to every game.

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Can we have another armored core first

 

[Xiaomi]

21 pages of people arguing over something that's a truth in gaming.

I don't got time to get good at Sekiro.. so I won't play. That's a lost sale for them. I love From's world building.. it's just I don't got time to dedicate to a game like that now. I don't mind dying, but I'm getting older.. my reflexes aren't as good.. a less challenging mode would get me to play it.

..but apparently that butt hurts people who seem to play FS games for some internet cred instead of just for enjoyment.

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It's totally fine if you don't buy the game. That's why I don't buy hardcore realistic flight sims or drag racing games: I am not into that, and I don't want to spend the time on them. But I don't think anyone is "butthurt" about people not buying From's games; they're evergreen titles that generate tens of millions of sales. And internet cred doesn't even come into play. Go into the Sekiro thread, many people have beaten the game by now and no one thinks they're hot shit for doing that. The rewards are intrinsic and personally satisfying, not motivated by a desire for prestige.

 

[Ferrio]

Maybe things like queues? Like enemies have a small flash near them when you can parry their attacks (unless they have them already (I'm still on Bloodborne forgive me))

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You better have an epilepsy warning cause the game will be a strobe light.

 

[TheBeardedOne]

Truth

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[NervousXtian]

Or people have fun with the game and don't care that you don't buy it.

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I'm not asking gamers to care if I buy it. That's not a "you" problem.. it's a lost sale to From.. not you.

Not even sure what your point is.

Making an easier mode does jack shit to your enjoyment.

 

[signal]

Can we have another armored core first

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We're already getting one.

Human PLUS in other games next.

 

[BradGrenz]

That's the thing. Easy Mode wouldn't offer the "Souls Experience" some are feeling left out of. It would be something else entirely. These games aren't meant to be peaceful theme parks with minimal resistance. Level Design(bonfires, shortcuts). Enemy placement & composition. Boss design. Atmosphere. Pacing. Sound Design. Even the lore. The difficulty feeds in to and enhances so many aspects of the design that the easy experience wouldn't really be comparable at all.

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This is how I see it: It's like climbing a mountain. Not everyone can make it to the top of K2. That's simply a fact. If they built an escalator to the peak, suddenly many more people would be able to make it to the top, but they still didn't climb the mountain. If all those people wanted was to see the view, games have an equivalent to that experience: YouTube & Twitch. And it's undeniable that the presence of the escalator materially impacts the experience of anyone who still attempts the climb. Suddenly they always have a release valve. It's no longer the choice between achieving success and admitting defeat. The existence of another path can't be ignored. Does it "ruin" the experience? No, but it's easy to argue it diminishes the experience.

In this same vein, other games with intentionally frustrating controls such as QWOP and Getting Over It would also become kinda pointless with an easy mode.

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This is a good point.

 

[Deleted member 1120]

I'm not asking gamers to care if I buy it. That's not a "you" problem.. it's a lost sale to From.. not you.

Not even sure what your point is.

Making an easier mode does jack shit to your enjoyment.

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From seems to be doing fine not having an easy mode so...

 

[Deleted member 17952]

I mean, how about this, instead of things like easy mode or hard mode, what if there was a practice arena? I know we have the Undying in Sekiro but what if after every enemy there was a practice arena where you could face them again? And only in this practice arena could you manipulate parameters like no health loss or no stamina loss or even making time 1/2x or 3/4x speed. The requirement that you need to defeat the enemy prevents you from cheesing bosses first try while also teaching you how to optimize against the opponent without affecting the actual game.

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What's the point of that? Just practice on the boss itself. Nothing's stopping you from trying repeatedly. How else do you think other people got better?

 

[Deleted member 2550]

We're already getting one.

Human PLUS in other games next.

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I know it was announced, but it's not in my hands yet 😔

 

[Deleted member 32374]

What's there to criticize about a developer or creator wanting people to have a specific experience in the first place?

It's ultimately up to the creators to decide if difficulty options compromise their game's experience or intent. If a game has difficulty options then obviously the developers are okay with providing it and aren't worried about the core experience being undermined and that's great. If From Software or any other creators think offering difficulty options undermines their game then they're absolutely allowed to feel that way and not include such options.

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Its art, they can only control the experience so much. It hubris to think they are all powerful in how their work is interpreted.

Nothing is stopping them from locking people out but they can take the heat from some corners of the gaming public if they don't. Its been discussed again and again how no other media gets the praise that gaming does for limiting its audience or making its experiences inaccessible.

 

[SliChillax]

THIS

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But I really wanna be able to play Bloodborne and I suck at it, should I not have the right to enjoy the game?

 

[sonicmj1]

As much as certain games may be about overcoming challenges, with proper presentation "easy modes" tend to be a net positive. Crushed's post below is a great example of applying Celeste's Assist Mode to Sekiro. Celeste is very much a game about overcoming challenge, both in its play and its narrative, yet I haven't seen anyone say that the Assist Mode has ruined the experience for them.

Assist Mode (Deflect):
Off: The base Sekiro experience.
Low: The window to deflect incoming attacks is increased.
Medium: The window to deflect and Perfect Deflect incoming attacks is increased.
High (Automatic): While blocking, incoming attacks will be automatically deflected.
Extreme (Automatic): While blocking, incoming attacks will be automatically Perfect Deflected.

Assist Mode (Healing):
Off: The base Sekiro experience.
Low: The Wolf will have one extra use of the Healing Gourd.
Medium: The Wolf will have two extra uses of the Healing Gourd, and will receive less damage if attacked while healing.
High: The Wolf will have three extra uses of the Healing Gourd, and will receive less damage if attacked while healing.
Extreme: The Wolf will have unlimited uses of the Healing Gourd, and will receive less damage if attacked while healing.

Assist Mode (Resurrection):
Off: The base Sekiro experience.
Low: The Wolf recovers more health upon resurrecting.
Medium: The Wolf starts with one extra node of resurrection, and recovers more health upon resurrecting.
High: The Wolf starts with two extra nodes of resurrection, and recovers full health upon resurrecting. Dragonrot is slower to afflict others.
Extreme: The Wolf may resurrect as many times as wanted. Dragonrot no longer spreads.


Notice: Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice is a game about accomplishment in the face of unbeatable odds. As such, the intended game experience is without Assist Modes enabled. Certain Trophies/Achievements will not be available if Low options are enabled. Most trophies and achievements will not be available when enabling Medium or above settings.

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That said, implementing a mode like this is a question of resources. It may improve the game, but a developer is not obligated to include it.

I think that comparison falls down based on the nature of the media. Ulysses is in fact translated into multiple languages and as incredible as Joyce was, even he can't know for sure how his dense, personal, poetic tangle of ideas and sounds translates into another language than his own native tongue. But as a notable achievement in literature, people all over the world wanted to know the story and get the essence of the nature of what Joyce was attempting - even if it isn't identical in form, but rather attempting to translate that effort to share with a broader audience (https://lithub.com/the-horrors-and-pleasures-of-translating-ulysses/).

No Frenchman who read a translation of Ulysses believes he has read the original, any more than a person seeing a photo of a Michelangelo statue has properly experienced David. But their curiosity and appreciation for a version of it are real and meaningful.

Now, if Michelangelo had ruled that he wanted nobody to see David except in the flesh at the scale and closeness he intended, I'd respect that. It would be a mystery that people would describe to each other - and a few would experience. Same here. If that's what From and Miyazaki insist upon then who am I to tell them otherwise?

But I wouldn't dare tell a Frenchman he shouldn't read the translation of Ulysses because that's a kind of ridiculous niche snobbery that is none of my business to transmit.

To quote Joyce himself, ""The supreme question about a work of art is out of how deep a life does it spring."

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There's lots of literature I will never be able to read because I cannot speak the language it is written in. Any translation of that literature is a net benefit, even if it does not replicate the exact experience of the original work, because it will let me approach it when I could not before. But it is not the author or the publisher's moral obligation to produce the work in every possible language, because that comes at a cost.

For a more exact parallel to games, SOMA, a horror game widely lauded for its story, added a "safe mode" for players via patch that removed failure states and altered enemy behavior to fit this. This is very much not what the developers had originally intended when they produced the game. I am not a fan of horror games, and I had resigned myself to never playing the game because of the horror. I had no expectation that Frictional Games would make something that would let me play. But I am happy that they did, and their doing so does not alter the original experience that fans of the game appreciated.

I think it'd be good if From added an appropriate mode that lowered difficulty for players, but I would understand if they wished to spend their limited resources elsewhere.

 

[Asmodai48]

I'm not asking gamers to care if I buy it. That's not a "you" problem.. it's a lost sale to From.. not you.

Not even sure what your point is.

Making an easier mode does jack shit to your enjoyment.

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Apparently making an easy mode does jack shit for FROMs enjoyment too.

 

[NervousXtian]

From seems to be doing fine not having an easy mode so...

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Great argument, real thought into this from you... has zero to do with the topic of the thread.

 

[Deleted member 888]

If it was Dark Souls 4 for example, and they did add an easy mode, I do feel there would be a lot of people complaining.

Things like summons would be easily managed with exactly what you said, matchmaking based on difficulty. I don't think From is being elitist by not having it, I think the "git gud" people are, however. There's no denying a lot of people have huge ego's when it comes to From Software's games.

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Because matchmaking based on difficulty would be pretty shitty, especially if it meant a low population of players on a specific difficulty meaning hardly any summons/etc. People would be right to complain for the game that Souls intends to be for that is poor design. Some of the stuff tried in Dark Souls 2 with covenant specific summons was already pretty bad, before we hypothetically tackle splitting all the player base up based on difficulty.

Git gud is mostly a meme, but sure, some assholes exist on the internet. Not much else is new, there is always a Johnny who thinks his gamerscore or trophy count actually amounts to something anyone should give a shit about.

I think most of the pushback is because one dev exists who has managed to fine tune their linear experience for the masses, so much so millions of people keep buying each individual From Software game and they're really a unique entry in a AAA market where every game tends to have very easy -> hardcore.

Because From is good at doing linear difficulty and creating the fanbase around it they do, people are obviously apprehensive about just how easy (no pun intended) people claim it is for them to create the next "generic open world game with super easy mode". Your Bethesda, Ubisoft or even EA tend to be better at how this industry has gone, everything being very indistinguishable. One open world game is basically the same as the next, minus the skins and story.

While it's not related in one sense, I will further plug this video for how game design used to treat difficulty before everything became quest markers, fast travel, holding your hand, etc



Which is probably why I brought up Bushido Blade earlier. I was thinking of another game with a smart game design that can lead to something so deadly as one hit KO being used but a game still being fair.

Not every dev needs to be like that, but I think it's absolutely fine for "one dev" to exist in the AAA market that bucks the trend. I don't think it's very charitable to try and lay disabled gamers and other conditions on From Software as if to imply if they don't change, they're being heartless/careless/insensitive. They don't pretend to be anything other than what they are and they occupy such a smart part of an overall market that will operate differently than them.

 

[Xaszatm]

You better have an epilepsy warning cause the game will be a strobe light.

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Not something that covers the screen obviously but a lot of games have a small light near enemies that can indicate something. Basically I'm searching for ways that make the game "easier" without actually messing with numbers.

What's the point of that? Just practice on the boss itself. Nothing's stopping you from trying repeatedly. How else do you think other people got better?

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It's just an easier way of accessing that boss/enemy or maybe to practice a no hit run. I'm just thinking on how I would add options that would make things more accessible without touching the gameplay difficulty itself.

 

[Bizazedo]

It hasn't have to be for you, it's for those who need it. If you don't need it, that's absolutely great. You can definitely play on the harder difficulties, nobody should be telling you what difficulty you play on. It's your choice. Challenge yourself on your own terms.

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You're ignoring my point.

To make it accessible, follow what Microsoft did with that one video with the disabled child, the one that played in previews before movies in theaters. They made controls he could use for the game to make it accessible. That should always be the priority to make it accessible. It's best to make the actual game playable by the disabled person, not to change the game experience.

 

[Deleted member 51539]

In this same vein, other games with intentionally frustrating controls such as QWOP and Getting Over It would also become kinda pointless with an easy mode.

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And Octodad.

 

[Datajoy]

I strongly oppose a forced easy mode in Sekrio, for the simple reason that the developers themselves decided to include only one default difficulty. They poured their blood sweat and tears into tweaking and balancing the game's difficulty. Placement of healing items, enemy attack animations and hitboxes, damage output for every one of the Wolf's special moves, length of healing animation, dodge-iframes, enemy placements, et cetera ad infinitum.

The game is designed around the difficulty, why would they throw a massive wrench in the works and break all of that hard-earned balancing and fine-tuning just because some people don't learn how to play the game properly?

 

[Ferrio]

Not something that covers the screen obviously but a lot of games have a small light near enemies that can indicate something. Basically I'm searching for ways that make the game "easier" without actually messing with numbers.

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Still going to need that warning, combat is a lot faster in this game. Not to mention there's already special effect hits that happen when you parry that you need to keep track off, might get too visually messy. I don't even think it'd help people having difficulty parrying either. It's not the cues that are difficult, it is the speed.

 

[Zeel]

But I really wanna be able to play Bloodborne and I suck at it, should I not have the right to enjoy the game?

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But sucking at it is part of the experience. Overcoming the harsh beginning of a Souls game, improving and progressing, it's part of what makes these games feel special and cathartic. The difficulty is part of the horror, being afraid of what lurks around the next corner, knowing it could kill you in an instant.

 

[Deleted member 2550]

But I really wanna be able to play Bloodborne and I suck at it, should I not have the right to enjoy the game?

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You have the "right" to enjoy it. Whether or not you do is a different story.

 

[TreeMePls]

21 pages of people arguing over something that's a truth in gaming.

I don't got time to get good at Sekiro.. so I won't play. That's a lost sale for them. I love From's world building.. it's just I don't got time to dedicate to a game like that now. I don't mind dying, but I'm getting older.. my reflexes aren't as good.. a less challenging mode would get me to play it.

..but apparently that butt hurts people who seem to play FS games for some internet cred instead of just for enjoyment.

Click to shrink...

\
If they actually cared about losing sales due to no easy difficulty option they wouldve added them in the last 6 games

 

[Crayolan]

What's the point of that? Just practice on the boss itself. Nothing's stopping you from trying repeatedly. How else do you think other people got better?

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In Souls games you often need to make your way through a gauntlet of enemies before being able to even attempt a boss. Being able to practice on the boss itself without the gauntlet before you take on the gauntlet+the boss together would definitely help people.

 

[Deleted member 48897]

So, no one has anything else to discuss except From Software games. No experience with how an accessibility mode meant a lot to you personally or a loved one in another game? How such modes are covered in the games media? How such modes can further diversify gaming for the next generation?

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Hey I tried to expand the discussion to include mention of what people usually consider quality-of-life improvements like emulator rewinds and the way they informed the NES Remix collection, but I guess my comment was too long and daunting for some of the commenters in this thread

 

[Deleted member 17952]

Not something that covers the screen obviously but a lot of games have a small light near enemies that can indicate something. Basically I'm searching for ways that make the game "easier" without actually messing with numbers.



It's just an easier way of accessing that boss/enemy or maybe to practice a no hit run. I'm just thinking on how I would add options that would make things more accessible without touching the gameplay difficulty itself.

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If people actually wanted to practice we wouldn't be having this entire discussion in the first place. They just want an "A" for awesome without actually engaging with the mechanics.

 

[Deleted member 32374]

Hey I tried to expand the discussion to include mention of what people usually consider quality-of-life improvements like emulator rewinds and the way they informed the NES Remix collection, but I guess my comment was too long and daunting for some of the commenters in this thread

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I'm sorry I missed it. I'll check it out.

And yes, other people (like you) are discussing it. Topic is completely getting drowned out by the From Software talk and that's a goddamn shame.

 

[Xiaomi]

But I really wanna be able to play Bloodborne and I suck at it, should I not have the right to enjoy the game?

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I mean, that sucks and I hope you find a way to enjoy it eventually, but no, the concept of a "right" to enjoy a game doesn't make any sense. Do I have a right to enjoy Euro Truck Simulator just because I bought it, even if all I want to do is drive a massive truck wherever I want without doing any of the missions, or should I probably play a different game like Spintires that caters to my tastes better?

 

[newmoneytrash]

If people actually wanted to practice we wouldn't be having this entire discussion in the first place.

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lmao, no

difficulty barriers can extend beyond commitment

Do I have a right to enjoy Euro Truck Simulator just because I bought it, even if all I want to do is drive a massive truck wherever I want without doing any of the missions

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You do have a right to do that. It lets you

 

[Kage Maru]

This is how I see it: It's like climbing a mountain. Not everyone can make it to the top of K2. That's simply a fact. If they built an escalator to the peak, suddenly many more people would be able to make it to the top, but they still didn't climb the mountain. If all those people wanted was to see the view, games have an equivalent to that experience: YouTube & Twitch. And it's undeniable that the presence of the escalator materially impacts the experience of anyone who still attempts the climb. Suddenly they always have a release valve. It's no longer the choice between achieving success and admitting defeat. The existence of another path can't be ignored. Does it "ruin" the experience? No, but it's easy to argue it diminishes the experience.



This is a good point.

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I don't agree that it has to diminish the experience. It's easy to just ignore the escalator. This is like saying wall climbers can't feel a sense of accomplishment by climbing a hard wall because there are easier walls in the facility.

 

[Deleted member 32374]

I mean, that sucks and I hope you find a way to enjoy it eventually, but no, the concept of a "right" to enjoy a game doesn't make any sense. Do I have a right to enjoy Euro Truck Simulator just because I bought it, even if all I want to do is drive a massive truck wherever I want without doing any of the missions, or should I probably play a different game like Spintires that caters to my tastes better?

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Or have you ever had your world turned upside down and an accessibility mode available in a hot new release made you feel like you used to and you were one of the crowd again? That in some small way the world hadn't ended?

And no, I'm not taking about a From Software game. I never played more than an hour of any of them, and that was a free copy of Bloodborne from PSN.

 

[mugurumakensei]

You're ignoring my point.

To make it accessible, follow what Microsoft did with that one video with the disabled child, the one that played in previews before movies in theaters. They made controls he could use for the game to make it accessible. That should always be the priority to make it accessible. It's best to make the actual game playable by the disabled person, not to change the game experience.

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Except certain things like timing for I-frames will never be possible for certain disabilities and most of From's games are not forgiveable in that aspect.

 

[Deleted member 17952]

lmao, no

difficulty barriers can extend beyond commitment


You do have a right to do that. It lets you

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So, you never answered my question to you earlier. How easy is easy? Say a genie granted your wish and you're allowed to put ONE easy mode on Sekiro. What will you do with that mode?

 

[Xiaomi]

You do have a right to do that. It lets you

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Sure, it lets me do that, the same way Dark Souls lets you run around and swing a sword from the beginning, but I can't complete the game unless I do the missions. Should the Euro Truck dev include an option that lets me own all the trucks and "complete" the game even if I don't want to drive a truck from point A to point B, earn money, and manage my shipping business?

 

[newmoneytrash]

So, you never answered my question to you earlier. How easy is easy? Say a genie granted your wish and you're allowed to put ONE easy mode on Sekiro. What will you do with that mode?

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I did answer your question, go back and read it

I've also said specifically how I would do an easy mode for Sekiro in this thread

Sure, it lets me do that, the same way Dark Souls lets you run around and swing a sword from the beginning, but I can't complete the game unless I do the missions. Should the Euro Truck dev include an option that lets me own all the trucks and "complete" the game even if I don't want to drive a truck from point A to point B, earn money, and manage my shipping business?

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Easy mode isn't ignoring missions and doing whatever you want. Your argument is very bad

Also Truck Simulators have good options regarding penalties for destroying your truck and whether you want to engage with fatigue mechanics. I don't know if that's the game you want to use for your very silly example

 

[Bizazedo]

Except certain things like timing for I-frames will never be possible for certain disabilities and most of From's games are not forgiveable in that aspect.

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Example?

And yes, at a certain extreme, there are things I know I will never be able to do, like walk. It sucks, but it is what it is.