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Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,514
kotaku.com

During A Preview, Forspoken Devs Described Their Black Protag In Cringe-Inducing Ways

Black folks were surprisingly absent during the Forspoken hands-off event
When I was scheduled for a preview of Forspoken, formerly Project Athia, there were three questions I was pressed to know. One, how the team went about handling the portrayal of its Black protagonist. Two, what the gameplay was like, and three, how Forspoken stands out among other fantasy action role playing games. While Square Enix's hour-long preview provided a serviceable, if not clinical, job in addressing some of those questions, my initial curiosity has turned into trepidation.

While I didn't get to play Forspoken during my preview, I was able to watch early build footage of the game during a pre-recorded stream. The preview showcased Forspoken's magic system, parkour, and combat in action. It also gave me an opportunity to hear about Frey's development from the game's lead writers.
My newfound fears weren't helped when Rymer and Stashwick described Frey's origin story, which came off as a tired amalgamation of Black stereotypes. Those stereotypes included her "being very angry," her having "fallen through cracks of society," and being "on the verge of prison," before being teleported to Athia. The cherry on top of my newfound dread was motion capture and voice over director Tom Keegan describing Balinska's mannerisms during her motion capture performance as having a "very hip-hoppy kind of walk."

I wasn't the only journalist to find Stashwick's awkward remark and the lack of Black writers shown in our preview as harrowing. When Axios' Stephen Totilo asked if there were any Black developers or consultants involved with Forspoken in Square Enix's video chat, he didn't receive an answer during our preview. (Later on, he received an FAQ sheet that rounded up our media questions. Sadly, its answer came off as a canned response that leaned heavily on the hands-off preview where Balinska's "passionate" feedback throughout her motion capture process was regarded as "invaluable feedback" for the team.

"We worked closely with a number of consultants from BIPOC backgrounds to help portray Frey's character and tell the story from her perspective," Square Enix said in the FAQ, adding that Forspoken's supporting cast was "dominated by women and several women of color."

While I don't doubt that Luminous Productions consulted Black folks in how they went about creating Frey, being greeted by white writers, and only hearing about consultation from second-hand account didn't do them any favors for me as a player who's been starving for Black representation in games, both on-screen and in crafting their narratives. When we have discussions about representation and changing the way games are made, it feels like they are often left at superficial changes, like the face on the game cover or a nearly interchangeable protagonist. Sure, they have Black actors like Balinska and Janina Gavankar as antagonist Tanta Sila, but without Black writers or consultants featured prominently during the preview, the game didn't come off well for me. The wince-inducing descriptions levied at the protagonist could have easily been avoided had anyone with melanin been given meaningful positions of power on the project.
 

BobLoblaw

This Guy Helps
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,360
That's right. You get all of those stereotypes in there. Just like any other clueless asshole would.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,799
ayabreadissapointed4ayvw.jpg


I wanna say I'm surprised, but the real inside me knows that this is literally the best we can do right now.

Fucking sucks.

Those stereotypes included her "being very angry," her having "fallen through cracks of society," and being "on the verge of prison," before being teleported to Athia.

I wish "A Wrinkle In Time" was a better movie.
 

thankyoumerzbow

Prophet of Truth
Member
Dec 8, 2020
8,514
i only kew of the hip-hoppy one and that sucked, the one about being on the verge is prison is vomit inducing
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,743
This is far more damning than any of the actual gameplay stuff. That looks really cool. But jeez what a swing and a miss here.
 

RockmanBN

Visited by Knack - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,052
Cornfields
"While all these high profile names were all well and good, especially for their previous association in crafting other "AAA" games, last I checked none of them were Black people."

Just a bunch of white folks writing a black character with black stereotypes. Eughhh
 
Mar 19, 2021
4,162
That's disgusting, you'd think they could come up with an actual background story for her like they can with white characters, not one rooted in stereotypes. No comment about the "hip-hoppy" walk, like wtf
 

Mr_Nothin

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
705
Welp...as a black person (lol)
I dont see too much wrong with this. I dont always want to see black people in new games as some form of "new black person" (meaning the non-stereotypical acceptable black person in media)....it's a delicate subject and all but just because the character was "on the brink of prison" or "fell through the cracks of society" doesnt mean they are a stereotype necessarily. I still would like to see these types of characters because thats what I identify with still to this day.

We dont need to get rid of these types of characters even if they fall into stereotypes. It feels like it would be an overcorrection to have a knee jerk reaction and just get rid of these types of characters.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,799

I mean, naw.

I get it, and I'm not about to tell you what to do, but this is...where we're at. A bunch of white people trying very hard to co-op the black experience for entertainment value because it's lucrative because it's real. It sucks, but it's the only reason why a lot of movies featuring POC's without the backing or adminstration of POC's get made.

I truly hate saying this, but we have to take what we can get sometimes. A square game starring a black protagonist is more than I ever thought we'd ever get and I don't expect to ever see it ever again.

Everything about this fucking sucks.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
Forspoken reminds me a lot of Square Enix and Capcom's attempts to appeal to the West during the PS360 generation. AFAIK, it's a wholly white, English speaking team writing a game with a black protagonist that they're trying to pass off as a Japanese game. I don't have a lot of confidence in it.
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,799
Welp...as a black person (lol)
I dont see too much wrong with this. I dont always want to see black people in new games as some form of "new black person" (meaning the non-stereotypical acceptable black person in media)....it's a delicate subject and all but just because the character was "on the brink of prison" or "fell through the cracks of society" doesnt mean they are a stereotype necessarily. I still would like to see these types of characters because thats what I identify with still to this day.

We dont need to get rid of these types of characters even if they fall into stereotypes. It feels like it would be an overcorrection to have a knee jerk reaction and just get rid of these types of characters.

The problem is, THIS is where they decided to start. "Got a black protag, well they must be a thug, a mark, a dreg, or at least that's how their surroundings need to see them because WHY ELSE WOULD WE USE A BLACK CHARACTER?!?!?"

They started at the bottom.

Now we're here. (AT THE BOTTOM).
 

Lord Fanny

Member
Apr 25, 2020
26,023
Welp...as a black person (lol)
I dont see too much wrong with this. I dont always want to see black people in new games as some form of "new black person" (meaning the non-stereotypical acceptable black person in media)....it's a delicate subject and all but just because the character was "on the brink of prison" or "fell through the cracks of society" doesnt mean they are a stereotype necessarily. I still would like to see these types of characters because thats what I identify with still to this day.

We dont need to get rid of these types of characters even if they fall into stereotypes. It feels like it would be an overcorrection to have a knee jerk reaction and just get rid of these types of characters.

Huh?
 

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,488
Welp...as a black person (lol)
I dont see too much wrong with this. I dont always want to see black people in new games as some form of "new black person" (meaning the non-stereotypical acceptable black person in media)....it's a delicate subject and all but just because the character was "on the brink of prison" or "fell through the cracks of society" doesnt mean they are a stereotype necessarily. I still would like to see these types of characters because thats what I identify with still to this day.

We dont need to get rid of these types of characters even if they fall into stereotypes. It feels like it would be an overcorrection to have a knee jerk reaction and just get rid of these types of characters.

I mean, you don't have to get rid of any archetypes... Hip hoppy walk though bruh? Like, get someone else to do the P.R. if this is what they are gonna say. Game could end up fine, but you gotta do better than this.
 

BobLoblaw

This Guy Helps
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,360
Not going to place any blame on the actress, but I wonder what she thought of the dialogue/script. If the devs are this cringe now, then the script is probably outrageous.
 

Merc_

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,551
I see they're trying to beat Miles' exaggerated swagger of a black teen.

Why the fuck is it so hard to just see us as normal people?
 

Ascenion

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,227
Mecklenburg-Strelitz
It's fucking mortifying to me that Ubisoft…FUCKING UBISOFT of all developers, is somehow still the only one capable of portraying a black person without fucking overbearing stereotypes. I'm so fucking tired. I don't even get excited when I see someone that looks like me in a game anymore, it's almost always involving some bullshit.
 

Nimby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,226
Yeesh, what the fuck. I really want to like and hype this game but they are making it really fucking difficult.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,110
"On the verge of prison" is a real contender for the worst phrase ever uttered when promoting a video game, up there in the hall of shame with that DmC presentation.
 

Lukemia SL

Member
Jan 30, 2018
9,391
Game keeps looking and sounding more trash the more I see and hear about it. How are they achieving this.
 

kurahador

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,647
Why prison? Why can't she just lost her job or something.

Also, the writers:
Gary Whitta
Amy Hennig
Allison Rymer
Todd Stashwick
 

Mr_Nothin

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
705
I mean, you don't have to get rid of any archetypes... Hip hoppy walk though bruh? Like, get someone else to do the P.R. if this is what they are gonna say. Game could end up fine, but you gotta do better than this.
Well the writer didnt make the comment so they didnt START with "hip hoppy walk". That was the motion/voice director. Its still wrong to make that comment but they didnt start the character off as that...

Also, this game always seem like a "insert black person into an RPG so we can say we're diverse" type of game. Especially that one trailer when the main character was talking while the dragon was in the background. Everybody was praising that trailer while I was rolling my eyes. To me, this was a game made through focus testing and they just got this shit all wrong lol
 

Mesoian

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 28, 2017
26,799
I see they're trying to beat Miles' exaggerated swagger of a black teen.

Why the fuck is it so hard to just see us as normal people?

Because that's BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING.

We want the people in the RAP VIDEOS! PEOPLE LOVE THAT!

We'll never win this.
Why prison? Why can't she just lost her job or something.

Not unique enough. Gotta start with "SOCIETY HATES YOU".

So you know...the american black experience.
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
Can someone tell me what a hip-hop walk is?
 
Nov 19, 2019
10,231
The interview is bogus. But to the credit of the actress and game itself, I never once thought about black stereotypes while watching any trailers or gameplay.

She's certainly not Barrett Wallace.
 

Xils

Member
Feb 4, 2020
3,417
What's with Square obsession with angry protagonist lately?
We have Chaos Angryman and now a black woman who "is very angry".
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,324
Uhhh, get someone else to do your PR Square.

This is not it.

I swear to god is the writers also came at this game from this angle I am going to be LIVID.

The interview is bogus. But to the credit of the actress and game itself, I never once thought about black stereotypes while watching any trailers or gameplay.

She's certainly not Barrett Wallace.

This is how I am approaching it as well.

I see a lot potentially wrong with this game, but this is the first time I have seen anything concerning how they may have coded the protagonist.
 

Hero.of.Lgnd

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
85
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing Concerns Around Racist Stereotypes; Account in Junior Phase
I mean, you don't have to get rid of any archetypes... Hip hoppy walk though bruh? Like, get someone else to do the P.R. if this is what they are gonna say. Game could end up fine, but you gotta do better than this.

The wording is awkward but nothing more than that. People are blowing this WAY out of proportion.

And I am confused at so many of the responses here. Black people are, believe it or not, just people. They are not some sort of mysterious group that all have the same background, same story, etc. A black character doesn't NEED to have any specific attributes simply because they are black. The idea that, to have a black character in a video game, you have to have black writers is dumb. If we applied that line of thinking to everything, we are going to get a lot less representation than what is needed.

Over the top reactions to awkward wording, like the ones found in this thread (but luckily not much elsewhere), will do nothing but make developers think twice before being inclusive, scared that they might accidentely offend someone for nothing more than phrasing. And in a world that needs more black characters, latino characters, gay characters, etc., that would be a horrible shame.
 

Mr_Nothin

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
705
User Banned (Permanent): Racist concern trolling and dismissing concerns of other users
Can someone tell me what a hip-hop walk is?
Want me to show you? lol
There is def a such thing as a hip-hop walk

The wording is awkward but nothing more than that. People are blowing this WAY out of proportion.

And I am confused at so many of the responses here. Black people are, believe it or not, just people. They are not some sort of mysterious group that all have the same background, same story, etc. A black character doesn't NEED to have any specific attributes simply because they are black. The idea that, to have a black character in a video game, you have to have black writers is dumb. If we applied that line of thinking to everything, we are going to get a lot less representation than what is needed.

Over the top reactions to awkward wording, like the ones found in this thread (but luckily not much elsewhere), will do nothing but make developers think twice before being inclusive, scared that they might accidentely offend someone for nothing more than phrasing. And in a world that needs more black characters, latino characters, gay characters, etc., that would be a horrible shame.
You said it so much more articulately than i did.
This is one thing that has gotten on my nerve over the past few years. It's very white-knighty to me
 
"very hip-hoppy kind of walk."
So, I'm most likely exposing my white privilegness, but my impression was the writer voice directo/person associated with the game meant that ella was bouncy & energetic? Which makes sense, because Frey is very much parkour driven. Don't get me wrong, the writer not being able to explain the meaning behind it is a big fucking yikes, but I still think that's what they meant over anything stereotypical. but, maybe I'm missing some context?
 
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Nida

Member
Aug 31, 2019
11,275
Everett, Washington
I kinda want to say media shouldn't include protagonists who are POC unless they have POC behind their development but this would mean there would be very few POC protagonists going forward.

Some devs get it right, and others fuck it up completely.