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kristoffer

Banned
Oct 23, 2017
2,048
It's true man. If Germany organically got rid of the Nazis do you seriously think it would be the same situation?
Okay, you're clearly talking right past the other posters. The Allied forces occupied West and East Germany and then they collectively engaged in Vergangenheitsbewältigung, deliberately, on their own accord, and even have monuments to their national shame. Drop the point and move on.
 

Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,343
It really doesn't matter. Germany is very upfront with their past. Anyone playing the game knows it is about Nazis and that Jews were targeted and killed during the holocaust. Even if it isn't explicitly stated, everybody will be able to make those connections while playing.It is not like something bad is going to come of this, they are just trying to not break German law and get sued or offend people.
It is pretty bad. These things should not be made this ambigous and German law didn't require them to make the game that way either.
 

Bitch Pudding

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,202
It's true man. If Germany organically got rid of the Nazis do you seriously think it would be the same situation?

German pupils - as well as soldiers who join the German Armed Forces - are well-educated about this part of history till today. Maybe also thanks to that, Germany elected someone like Angela Merkel, not some wannabe-dictator.
 

Monogatari

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,166
Okay, you're clearly talking right past the other posters. The Allied forces occupied West and East Germany and then, on their own, they collectively engaged in Vergangenheitsbewältigung, deliberately, on their own accord, and even have monuments to their national shame. Drop the point and move on.
Germans really do have a word for everything. Thanks for the link, I've got some reading to do.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,839
It's true man. If Germany organically got rid of the Nazis do you seriously think it would be the same situation?
Organically? It was a fascist party that had taken over the country and was killing political adversaries. It's not a fever you sleep out.
Furthermore, nobody forced Germany to still remember and teach it the way they do in 2017.
 

Helmic

Member
Nov 7, 2017
51
One hot take after the other.

It's absolutely not weird to forbid Nazi symbols in the public. Exceptions for art forms are there, there's just nobody trying to get that exception for video games too.

Which is essntially what's going on. Bethesda totally could have taken this to court and easily won, but that would have cost money and they're not in the business of righting societal wrongs. Any half-decent game could successfully challenge the law, but since no one wants to foot the bill we're stuck in a situation where we run the risk of some random shithead putting out some Nazi propaganda game and then that being gaming's representative in this whole mess. Doesn't mean games would be banned from featuring Nazis forever, but it sure would be a major setback even if it somehow won.
 

Monogatari

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,166
Okay, you're clearly talking right past the other posters. The Allied forces occupied West and East Germany and then they collectively engaged in Vergangenheitsbewältigung, deliberately, on their own accord, and even have monuments to their national shame. Drop the point and move on.
Today I have learned.

I was wrong about my previous comments and have learned something new.

Sorry for my previous ignorance and thank you for sharing the truth with me.
 

TeddyShardik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,649
Germany
This is why me and many others just outright get any game featuring violence or a WWII theme from the UK. It's a little better now in terms of violence in games but I'd rather just be sure.

It's still unusual to see censorship to this extent. I mean it basically removes the whole message of the game. Might as well have not released it here at all. Thos was most likely just Bethesda being ultra cautious but the groundwork is still an antiquated law which we hve many of when it comes to anything digital. Germany's law is seriously behind in that regard.

For the few uneducated people trying to say this is Germany trying to hide their dirt: No it's not. I'll just refer to the posters above me since I think it has been explained enough.
Still if you went to a school in Germany there's no way you could come away with not knowing anything about Nazi Germany and the Holocaust.
We spent like 6 weeks in a museum solely about that time for our history classes.
 

thisismadness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,453
This is just Bethesda being overly cautious. If you look at Call of Duty: WWII, they only removed certain symbols there.


I havent played CoD, but is there even a direct comparison there beyond the swastikas? Does CoD depict or mention Hitler by name and title? Does it actually name the holocaust or Jews as victims? I'm curious because the scene I saw of "that moment" in the campaign simply refers to a labor camp for pows and the npcs only comment on dead soldiers.
 

Schnitzelfee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
361
Germany
? Does CoD depict or mention Hitler by name and title? Does it actually name the holocaust or Jews as victims? I'm curious because the scene I saw of "that moment" in the campaign simply refers to a labor camp for pows and the npcs only comment on dead soldiers.

lets just say you can still shoot Hitlers nut of in the German version of Sniper Elite without any problems :P
 

TheKeyPit

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,865
Germany
The only way this can ever change in my opinion is, that ANY developer or publisher needs the nuts NOT to adapt their game for the German market, NOT to accept the denial of a rating and go the court to fight for the freedom of art. The last sentence is more than 20 (!) years old!
I'd file it under "Leugnen der damaligen Ereignisse" if an uncensored version wouldn't make it through.

We have to do something about this. Even if it means to get video games acknowledged as art in this country.

Everyone just automatically censors his game to be done with it.

Removing his mustache is probably just a joke.
 

Beef Stallmer

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
875
IMO It's time for the Germans to move on, their childrens' childrens' children had nothing to do with WW2.
It's the worst piece of modern human history, sure, people should respect it, learn from it, and make sure it never happens again. But Germans should not be punished for it anymore. I think most of not all people who were involved at a high level are dead by now.

For the complete opposite:
Look at how Japan reflects on their war crimes. They made Grave of the Fireflies and Japanese children right now grow up and see Japan as a victim instead of an agressor, killing the most people and civilians in WW2 even.

That ain't right either. But there should be a middle ground for future generations, at least IMO.
 
Oct 31, 2017
490
God damnit I had to go through hoops to play the steam version of the first game uncensored and it seems that I gotta deal with all this again. What's ridiculous is that there are a bazillion documentaries about ww2 and Nazi Germany with tons of Nazi imagery, swastikas or footage of starving/ dead prisoners from concentration camps. Apparently perfectly fine to watch...
 

Mabase

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,041
It's true man. If Germany organically got rid of the Nazis do you seriously think it would be the same situation?

Of course the de-nazification had been a joint undertaking of the Allies, the Russians, but also the Germans. And of course it wasn't organic, but an institutionalized, long, and pain- and shameful process that tried to uncover this horrible part of the German history.
But you imply that somehow, in the present year 2017, the Germans' Vergangenheitsbewältigung is fake cause there was pressure from outside in the beginning, right after the war? I'm sorry man, but you can't honestly write

They don't own up to their mistakes.

about the present state Germany if these last two, maybe three generations, who weren't even alive during the Third Reich, have spent all their life owning up to the sins of their fathers. Even if Germany's attempts to uncover and deal with its past have not always been perfect, they haven't been forced to do this in decades, and this country has chosen and I'm sure will choose again and again, to carry this weight for a long, long time to come.
 

Monogatari

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,166
Of course the de-nazification had been a joint undertaking of the Allies, the Russians, but also the Germans. And of course it wasn't organic, but an institutionalized, long, and pain- and shameful process that tried to uncover this horrible part of the German history.
But you imply that somehow, in the present year 2017, the Germans' Vergangenheitsbewältigung is fake cause there was pressure from outside in the beginning, right after the war? I'm sorry man, but you can't honestly write



about the present state Germany if these last two, maybe three generations, who weren't even alive during the Third Reich, have spent all their life owning up to the sins of their fathers. Even if Germany's attempts to uncover and deal with its past have not always been perfect, they haven't been forced to do this in decades, and this country has chosen and I'm sure will choose again and again, to carry this weight for a long, long time to come.

It's alright I changed my mind now. I read that wiki article about the Vergang... and have erased my ignorance on this subject.
 

Chamaeleonx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,348
I can understand changing Hitler to Chancellor. But the rest is just bad.
The only thing they probably have to change due to laws is the symbol. But you can use a different one instead. Talking about Jews and Holocaust shouldn't be a problem.
Yes they should change the law and consider video games art, period!

Games are Art period. Therefore everything goes in Games, doesn't matter what it is!
 

Sanox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,566
Why doesn't Germany just acknowledge they fucked up with Hitler and Nazi's and just let portrayals of them in media fly by?

Ignoring a six year period of your country's history seems like a mistake.

It's not like German youth don't know what happened all those years ago through other forms of media and education.

I'm not German so I don't know the laws in place. I'd love to be enlightened though.

Germany DOES NOT IGNORE the Nazis and ackwnowledges more than any other country that they fucked up in the past. Every single kid gets World War 2 drilled into their head in school

The laws are outdated and need to be revised.
 

Jucksalbe

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
739
I looked for my original source on this information, and here it is (Eurogamer, but other sites have articles on this as well). This is from 2012 though. Is it no longer the case anymore?

The general problem is that you aren't allowed to give minors access to 18+ titles. Sony does it by giving PSN cards an 18+ ratings and restricting 18+ demos to PS+ members, Nintendo tried to do it with that weird time based method (which is something usually only done by TV stations). They dropped that after they got some kind of certification by I don't know who. Now they are allowed to sell their stuff at every time of the day. This restriction wasn't used for long.
 

ASaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
The general problem is that you aren't allowed to give minors access to 18+ titles. Sony does it by giving PSN cards an 18+ ratings and restricting 18+ demos to PS+ members, Nintendo tried to do it with that weird time based method (which is something usually only done by TV stations). They dropped that after they got some kind of certification by I don't know who. Now they are allowed to sell their stuff at every time of the day. This restriction wasn't used for long.
Ah, okay. Interesting. So you can't buy a PSN card in Germany without proving you're 18?
 

Mabase

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,041
It's alright I changed my mind now. I read that wiki article about the Vergang... and have erased my ignorance on this subject.

Ah, I see, thanks and good on you. Sorry if this came off rude, but I have been living in Germany for a very long time and, seeing some of the mis-information in this thread just feels a bit unfair towards the Germans, when there's been so much effort to never take their history and responsibility too lightly.
 

Monogatari

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,166
Ah, I see, thanks and good on you. Sorry if this came off rude, but I have been living in Germany for a very long time and, seeing some of the mis-information in this thread just feels a bit unfair towards the Germans, when there's been so much effort to never take their history and responsibility too lightly.
Nah it's ok. I was wrong to speak on a subject I was fairly ignorant.

There's much I can learn and think about in the context of my own people's less than savoury past (I'm Turkish).
 

Mark H

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,679
Didn't the past Wolfenstein games got banned in Germany until it was censored?
This seems to be a case of Bethesda going overcautious and decided to just remove every Nazi reference they can.
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
this is beyond laughable. while i think bethesda has been a bit to cautious on its self-sensoring germans should be ashamed of this and i am saying this as a german.

maybe bethesda even did this out of purpose.
That's not true. I'm German and we can buy mature games whenever we want. It's just that some of these games are censored, which doesn't happen as frequently as it once did though. Wolfenstein is just an extreme (and frankly quite embarrassing) example of that.
its probably not state censorship but self-sensoring by the developer to cirumvent any problems. i think its probably done over the top to send a message.

german media did pick this up by the way

zeit did an article about the censorship

http://www.zeit.de/digital/games/2017-10/wolfenstein-2-the-new-colossus-nazis-hakenkreuz
 
Last edited:

Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,343
this is beyond laughable. while i think bethesda has been a bit to cautious on its self-sensoring germans should be ashamed of this and i am saying this as a german.

maybe bethesda even did this out of purpose.

its probably not state censorship but self-sensoring by the developer to cirumvent any problems. i think its probably done over the top to send a message.

german media did pick this up by the way

zeit did an article about the censorship

http://www.zeit.de/digital/games/2017-10/wolfenstein-2-the-new-colossus-nazis-hakenkreuz
"Germans" can't do anything if no publisher tries to release a game with swastikas and challenges the law.

If it was on purpose as you say, the lack of any mention or reaction of that from Bethesda is pretty strange, I'd expect them to bank on that message.

If it wasn't, they clearly need to hire better legal advice because its way over the top.
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
I'm not following this logic.
because german laws are limiting the freedom of speech and therefore limiting legitimate critique against the nazi regime. how can you show the cruelty of the regime if you have to censor out the holocaust, just out of fear the german legal system would see it as a presentation of nazi symbols?
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
"Germans" can't do anything if no publisher tries to release a game with swastikas and challenges the law.

If it was on purpose as you say, the lack of any mention or reaction of that from Bethesda is pretty strange, I'd expect them to bank on that message.

If it wasn't, they clearly need to hire better legal advice because its way over the top.
germans can change § 86a StGB to make it clear that its okay to show certain symbols in a certain context
 

IvanSlavkov

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,910
Bulgaria
This reminds me of the butchered TLOU MP mode. No gore, no torn limbs had to import a US copy for both ps3 and ps4.
Can anyone confirm that it is only for Germany and not the rest of EU?
 

flohen95

Member
Nov 4, 2017
99
yup, cards have a big red logo with a 18 similar to the USK one you see on game boxes from Germany

That logo has no legal bearing and is created and used only by Sony on their PSN cards. Shops are allowed to sell the cards to anyone regardless of age. Many don't do that because the cashiers tend to think that the 18 sign is legally binding, so it will be hard buying PSN cards when you're not 18, but legally, you're absolutely allowed to. It's also why Nintendo eShop cards and Xbox Live cards are sold to people without any problems. It's simply a stupid thing Sony put on there (probably to protect them from being sued) that is being followed by stores because they a) don't know better and b) don't want to risk breaking any law or being sued themselves for ignoring the "warning".
 

Phamit

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,943
I can understand changing Hitler to Chancellor. But the rest is just bad.
The only thing they probably have to change due to laws is the symbol. But you can use a different one instead. Talking about Jews and Holocaust shouldn't be a problem.
Yes they should change the law and consider video games art, period!

Games are Art period. Therefore everything goes in Games, doesn't matter what it is!

There is no law, that says games aren't art, it's just a court ruling. There is no law, which says what art is and what isn't. For example, the USK allowed Spec Ops: The line to be published uncensored because they considered the game as art.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,126
germans can change § 86a StGB to make it clear that its okay to show certain symbols in a certain context

Hasn't it already occurred to some extent? From the Wikipedia article on that law:

"On Friday 17 March 2006, a member of the Bundestag, Claudia Roth, reported herself to the German police for displaying a crossed-out swastika in multiple demonstrations against Neo-Nazis, and subsequently got the Bundestag to suspend her immunity from prosecution. She intended to show the absurdity of charging anti-fascists with using fascist symbols: "We don't need prosecution of non-violent young people engaging against right-wing extremism." On 15 March 2007, the Federal Court of Justice of Germany (Bundesgerichtshof) reversed the charge, holding that the crossed-out symbols were "clearly directed against a revival of national-socialist endeavors", thereby settling the dispute for the future.[15][16][17]"

Not confident enough in my German to pick through, but these documents are sourced:

http://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/c...nr=39349&linked=urt&Blank=1&file=dokument.pdf
http://juris.bundesgerichtshof.de/c...=2007&Sort=3&Seite=5&nr=39202&pos=164&anz=200
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,471880,00.html
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,652
I actually don't think games should be considered "art" by the government. This might be a controversial statement here, but I don't think all games are automatically art, just like not all films are art. I'd classify games that truly do something special with the medium as art, but even though I really like Wolfenstein 2 a lot, I wouldn't call it art.

That said, I do think that German censorship of anything Nazi-related is very unhealthy. People should be confronted with that part of their history. Not only through art or history class, but also through videogames like Wolfenstein 2.
 

ButeoViridis

Member
Nov 3, 2017
21
Germany
Hi everybody,

I wish my first post would be about something more positive, but here we go:

Firstly I want to recommend this article by the "study-group historical sciences and digital games"/"Arbeistkreis Geschichtswissenschaften und Digitale Spiele":
"Wider die Selbstzensur – Das Dritte Reich, nationalsozialistische Verbrechen und der Holocaust im Digitalen Spiel"
http://gespielt.hypotheses.org/1449
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=gespielt.hypotheses.org/1449&edit-text=&act=url

It starts explicit with Wolfenstein II, recapitulates the legal situation down to quotation of the law, moves to the games industry/community in a broader sense and ends with two interviews with Berlin based indie devs who work on games touching the subject matter.
http://throughthedarkestoftimes.com/
http://curious-case.com/

If "Auf ein Bier" is within the OP you can add ERA's own SilentBob's cast, too, I guess:
https://www.hookedmagazin.de/blog/2...ein-2-the-new-colossus-paris-games-week-mehr/

As long as it is about solely the swastikas and/or SS-runes removal, I do not care. The mere substitutions of some 128x128 textures should be no deal breaker,
especially if the games would treat the Nazis like "generic bad guys/cannon fodder" interchangeable with Cobra Commander goons, etc.
I think this includes the older Wolfenstein titles, but not the new ones.


As strange as it sounds, I think "The New Order" is the first game that "gets it".
The Third Reich being the Reich and the Nazis being actually Nazis, not cosplaying Schießbudenfiguren.

In my opinion it is able to use its pulp genre as some kind of prism to handle the real horrors, which by a big part is made possible by its multi-lingual approach.
Gone are "Mein Leben!" and a mere "Die, Schweinehund!"("Der Schweinehund!"?) and now at least enhanced if not replaced with actual German dialogues
containing the BdM or the terrifying casual (double-think like) treatment of working shifts at a concentration camp. (Partially in subtle dialects! German dialects, in a game!)

Or the abyss that lurks within the lyrics of the Neumond Records or being shown a Berlin which has been completely devoured by Speer's Germania.
Sometimes I wonder if Germans had been THE target audience, who else would be able to register all the work they have put into this?

Except this is not what I would experience, even if I had rig/device to play it.

I had hopes that might change with "The New Colossus", given that its producer is supposed to be former USK staff.
http://www.gameswirtschaft.de/karriere/ruben-schwebe-usk-machinegames/

Like, you know, "Perhaps he's going to tell them about 'games are now at least cultural goods, if not even art.'".
https://www.kulturrat.de/pressemitt...erspiele-zehnjaehriger-kampf-war-erfolgreich/

And we would get both games with the original voice tracks retroactively, but nope. When I saw the German localization's flashback with its removals I just went "It's beyond remedy".
In regards to Wolfenstein II itself I got nothing to add. They should have kept the original voices and just add German subtitles. Put them in Fraktur if you want to add some kind of meta joke.

Additionally, going to court for "Video games are ART!" would mean to concede that your work's overall message has/is able to have ramifications.
I fear some people want to keep their "WTF!? They are just video games/electronic toys, LOL!"-card.

Also, here is a nice podcast with the voice actors of Blazkowicz and Frau Engel:
https://soundcloud.com/user-2981731...bloom-nina-franoszek-address-nazi-controversy

PS/fake edit:
Once again I am feeling so mad at some of the comments. Please look up "Vergangenheitsbewältigung" or "Stolpersteine". This is post is long enough, I can't tell you about my time at school/upbringing, too.

It is just as infuriating as the Extra Credits video "On World War II and Nazi Symbolism: A Note from Extra History" and parts of its comments. Especially this part:

I also think this law of the Federal Republic's very beginning is silly now, but, still, the horror of the Third Reich lies in its crimes and its abhorrent idea of humanity and society.
Understanding the Nazi ideology and its inner workings does not depend solely on using the right icons.

I hope I've expressed myself clearly.

PPS/fake edit II:
Wasn't "Hitler" in Persona 2 a
trolling Nyarlathotep
, anyway?
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
Wow, that's ass backwards
From the devs/publisher, yeah.

Germany does have some weird laws around games. For instance, you can only sell mature games (whatever the rating equivalent is) on digital storefronts at certain times of night. Yes, really.
Uhh, no. The fuck? Where do you people get this stuff from? Mind sharing these gems of sources`?

Why doesn't Germany just acknowledge they fucked up with Hitler and Nazi's and just let portrayals of them in media fly by?

Ignoring a six year period of your country's history seems like a mistake.

It's not like German youth don't know what happened all those years ago through other forms of media and education.

I'm not German so I don't know the laws in place. I'd love to be enlightened though.
Holy shit educate yourself.
 

Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,343
That said, I do think that German censorship of anything Nazi-related is very unhealthy. People should be confronted with that part of their history. Not only through art or history class, but also through videogames like Wolfenstein 2.
This kind of sentiment repeated all over this thread as if we Germans aren't going to the biggest of lengths there are to confront our history is in my opinion the most insulting thing you could say to a German.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
I actually don't think games should be considered "art" by the government. This might be a controversial statement here, but I don't think all games are automatically art, just like not all films are art. I'd classify games that truly do something special with the medium as art, but even though I really like Wolfenstein 2 a lot, I wouldn't call it art.

That said, I do think that German censorship of anything Nazi-related is very unhealthy. People should be confronted with that part of their history. Not only through art or history class, but also through videogames like Wolfenstein 2.
I got confronted with that stuff in school first when I was 10 years old. I visited a concentration camp when I was 12. It was mandatory to visit it. I had this subject in history classes, german classes, religion/ethics classes and art classes. Can people who have no fucking clue stop acting like this isn't a thing here please? It's insulting as fuck.

This kind of sentiment repeated all over this thread as if we Germans aren't going to the biggest of lengths there are to confront our history is in my opinion the most insulting thing you could say to a German.
Seriously. The fuck is going on in here.
 

CloudWolf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,652
This kind of sentiment repeated all over this thread as if we Germans aren't going to the biggest of lengths there are to confront our history is in my opinion the most insulting thing you could say to a German.
I'm sorry for that, I truly didn't mean it in a bad or insulting way, but it's just weird how the German government all but bans Nazi imagery in most entertainment products. I've noticed this with some films and of course pretty much every game featuring Nazi's in existence.

I didn't mean to imply that you don't get confronted with your past at all, of course.
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
This kind of sentiment repeated all over this thread as if we Germans aren't going to the biggest of lengths there are to confront our history is in my opinion the most insulting thing you could say to a German.
no its valid criticism. just because there is a lot of efforts to learn from the past doesnt mean that it is appropriate to flat out ban certain symbols and prevent media that is critical of that very same regime from publishing their works without censorship.
 

Belfast

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,888
Not a German, but do have a German girlfriend and have visited. They do not hide this aspect of their history. The country still literally wears the scars of both WW2 and the Cold War eras. The difference is that there is no glorification of Nazi-ism and most depictions or reminders are educational in nature.

Over correcting changes to the game may be Bethesda's fault, but believe me, accurate to history or not, Germans do not sidestep their own history. Anyone playing the game in Germany is well aware of the actual history that transpired.
 

Wamb0wneD

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
18,735
I'm sorry for that, I truly didn't mean it in a bad or insulting way, but it's just weird how the German government all but bans Nazi imagery in most entertainment products. I've noticed this with some films and of course pretty much every game featuring Nazi's in existence.

I didn't mean to imply that you don't get confronted with your past at all, of course.
That's because the german government realized very early that "muh freeze peach" is something that should not include certain language and viewpoints that endanger other groups of human beings. They just go a bit overboard with it when it comes to video games simply because when the ruling was made video games were not a thing to consider. It does not, in no shape or form insinuate that the government doesn't want to confront people with Germany's past.
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
As a Jew, I am very against the censorship (well, I am anti-censorship in general) of the Swastika and the atrocities of world war 2, including the holocaust. I wish Germany didn't censor its games and other forms of media like this. If you don't remember the past, what's going to help you learn from it to avoid repeating it in the future?

The purpose of these laws isn't to censor, but to prevent glorification.
Its just not specific enough so unfortunately video games(unlike movies, books, etc.) are still affected.
They are viewed as toys and toys depicting nazi imagery are considered glorification.

And because politicians are old people who don't know anything about video games it takes fucking decades for the law to be changed.

And until that happens game publishers are very cautious, not because they have to fear to lose a lawsuit, they wouldn't, but because there would be a lawsuit and until a court determined that its in fact not Nazi glorification, their game can't be sold.
Given how essential launch windows are for game sales, this is not a risk publishers want to take, so they are extra thorough when it comes to self censorship.
 

Chamaeleonx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,348
There is no law, that says games aren't art, it's just a court ruling. There is no law, which says what art is and what isn't. For example, the USK allowed Spec Ops: The line to be published uncensored because they considered the game as art.
They simply should put Video Games under Art. Never understood why it is not. Simply outdated in my opinion.

I got confronted with that stuff in school first when I was 10 years old. I visited a concentration camp when I was 12. It was mandatory to visit it. I had this subject in history classes, german classes, religion/ethics classes and art classes. Can people who have no fucking clue stop acting like this isn't a thing here please? It's insulting as fuck.
I agree with you. The topic always comes up in literally every class because it is a big part of German history and gets viewed from many different angles.
 

Muffin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,343
no its valid criticism. just because there is a lot of efforts to learn from the past doesnt mean that it is appropriate to flat out ban certain symbols and prevent media that is critical of that very same regime from publishing their works without censorship.
The banning of the symbol is absolutely appropriate outside of use in art.

You're literally criticizing the German lawmakers who made that law back then that they didnt include videogames when they werent even a thing to exceptions of the law.

Go criticize current parties who dont wanna change it or publishers who dont wanna challenge it because they dont care all you want, but please spare me the "Germans are so weird about the nazis"