Addleburg

The Fallen
Nov 16, 2017
5,078
Witch Hunt is an exaggeration...but new McCarthism?

Nobody is denying that Hollywood is a bad place full of bad people.

The problem is that accusations alone are enough to destroy innocent lives and careers.

Look, he's a commie! Let's ruin his career and life! But we have no proof! Who fucking cares, this will scare the real commies too.

Look, he's a rapist! Let's ruin his career and life! But we have no proof! But this will scare the real rapists too...

When multiple women who don't know each other tell similar stories about sexual assault and indecent encounters with actors, that can then be corroborated by people who heard these same stories decades ago, I think it goes beyond random allegations. You seem to care more about the lives of wealthy Hollywood stars supposedly being ruined than the lives of these women who were assaulted decades ago and didn't have any power to do anything about it except - in many cases - internalize it as the actions being their own fault.

It's the equivalent of that Dave Chappelle skit posted earlier in this thread. I don't know what sort of evidence a 16 year old high schooler can bring to show Dustin Hoffman dropped his towel in front of her and then proceeded to make those statements. Should she have been carrying an audio recorder on her? A spy camera? Or can we be decent and take the fact that she told friends about this encounter a few years later as truth, especially when other women have echoed similar patterns of behavior regarding Hoffman?
 

MBeanie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,875
Witch-hunt is about made up allegations, unless you believe women are falsely accusing these men, than its not a witch-hunt.
 

Commedieu

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
15,025
Witch hunts were inherently bullshit, because there are no witches.


Sexual assault runs rampant in Hollywood...because people are assaulting women and children often.

Damn Liam, but glad he opened his mouth to illustrate just why Sexual assault is no big deal in hollywood.


Folks that are worried about it getting out of control aren't really using their brains.

No one goes down for a single allegation. From a spiteful woman. It's multiple sources, that the media vets. If you have multiple women who all have verified contact stories with you/about you assaulting women, that's what we call fishing with dynamite. Again. Not a witch hunt.

We've seen fake attempts made by conservatives, as well as that congressman. They don't immediately ruin a career. The % of "those lyin womens" trying to hold you down successfully killing your career is very low. We live in a society where women lie, where men lie, where cops lie, and I even seen a baby lie.

Focusing on the lying women, is like focusing on the .001% of welfare fraud, as the paramount issue. It's a bad and embarrassing look. I hope people that are doing this aren't men, because men have been embarrassing the hell out of other men since gamer gate with thinly veiled sexism not so cleverly executed.
 
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plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,761
Cape Cod, MA
I did. On specifically two points made and my messages had no real counter arguments, if not the immature gifs.
I sent you a PM, please answer.

Taken straight from Wikipedia:
The primary targets of such suspicions were government employees, those in the entertainment industry, educators and labor union activists. Suspicions were often given credence despite inconclusive or questionable evidence, and the level of threat posed by a person's real or supposed leftist associations or beliefs was sometimes exaggerated. Many people suffered loss of employment or destruction of their careers; some even suffered imprisonment. Most of these punishments came about through trial verdicts later overturned,[2] laws that were later declared unconstitutional,[3] dismissals for reasons later declared illegal[4] or actionable,[5] or extra-legal procedures that would come into general disrepute.

I just added the bolded. Don't you see any similarity? So, the word McCarthyism was not exaggeration.

Only on this forum there are tons of examples of common people being unjustly being blamed of something they didn't. We are not talking about celebrities ONLY.

A famous example is John Leslie in the USA.
In Italy there a couple of other examples, I'm no american, but italian director Fausto Brizzi is another example.

But also Michael Douglas had to make a step forward in order to save himself.

I don't want to stop the Metoo movement.
I'm just saying that every person must be evaluated on a case by case basis, you can't accuse someone just for sonething written on the internet.

With all due respect, I mind. And every one who cares about justice, should care too.

No, I'm just saying, allow Justice to do its course. Don't judge/accuse on the basis of things written on the internet.

The reason why I used those words was explained above in the Wikipedia extract.
I've already responded to precisely these points on McCarthyism.



McCarthyism was done by the government and involved actual black lists and people being put in prison. It's not as *much* of an exaggeration to call this McCarthyism, but it's still a clear exaggeration. The people who have questionable accusations against them haven't suffered much at all. The people who have suffered are the people who have either got piles of evidence against them, or who have admitted to some or all of the allegations against them. How many former convicts continue to work in Hollywood? I'd say odds are pretty good that, for example, that Jeremy Piven's life and career isn't destroyed.
 
Nov 21, 2017
544
Some people feel anxious due to the current social climate. "I can't say or do anything anymore". You know what? You can do anything that any normal, emphatic person would do. And the fact that you are thinking about your actions? That's good! That's progress! We absolutely SHOULD think about how we behave and how our words / actions might affect the people around us. Not just related to sexuality, but basic respect, too.
 

Ramala

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,088
Santa Monica, LA
Seems like he's in the Matt Damon camp where they're trying to rank sexual assault severity from "unwanted flirtation" through "playful breast groping" to "rape".
 

AlexCampy89

Banned
Nov 16, 2017
956
Witch-hunt is about made up allegations, unless you believe women are falsely accusing these men, than its not a witch-hunt.

But why do we need to express in a black or white mentality?
We don't know if these allegations are true or not. Were you there during the sexual assaults? Have you seen them? Can you testify?
Or are you believing people you do not know nothing about, only because you read it on the internet?
Innocent until proved guilty is a human right guaranteed by Human Rights:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights


http://www.claiminghumanrights.org/udhr_article_11.html
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,459
I love the Adam Sandler incident as proof of witch hunt because it's the proof of the opposite.... folks interpreted a video... context was clarified and everyone moved on, and life went on. Adam Sander was talked about for a week but has had no damage done to his career or livelihood and the only people who talk about it now are those worried about MeToo becoming a witch hunt...
 
Nov 6, 2017
1,202
I find it ridiculous that people suddenly hate him for what he said. He made a point and the first point he made about that radio host was really good and scary. Was is true? Liam doesnt seem like he doesnt care or is being a dick like Franco or others were when interviewed. I'm sensing some genuine issues with this. The part about Dustin, well we all cant be perfect.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,263
But why do we need to express in a black or white mentality?
We don't know if these allegations are true or not. Were you there during the sexual assaults? Have you seen them? Can you testify?
Or are you believing people you do not know nothing about, only because you read it on the internet?
Innocent until proved guilty is a human right guaranteed by Human Rights:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights


http://www.claiminghumanrights.org/udhr_article_11.html

That is only in public law, is different in the court of public opinion.

But don't worry, there are no witch-hunts going on!
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
Witch-hunt is about made up allegations, unless you believe women are falsely accusing these men, than its not a witch-hunt.

Witch-hunts are about mass movements of accusations, not made up allegations. Plenty of allegations, things like "Goody Williams cursed at me for not letting her have a pint of milk and the next day my cow died" for instance, are obviously not false accusations, but the context and meaning of the accusations is changed because of a wider movement.

Like the last thread where people started talking about this, lots of people are chirping in with a conception of witches and witch hunting that doesn't correspond to the actual historical research on the topic.

Witch hunts were inherently bullshit, because there are no witches.

This is a bit of an anachronism. Also at least in the Anglosphere, I would say common law but this was true in Scotland as well, being a witch isn't a crime so much as maleficium is, and some people were absolutely under the impression that they had indeed committed an act of maleficium. So as much as very few, though I would assume there were some, people thought they had signed Satan's black book, plenty thought they had committed a crime. That's part of the reason we occasionally see totally uncoerced admissions of witchcraft.
 
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Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,649
"there's some people, famous people, being suddenly accused of touching some girl's knee, or something, and suddenly they're being dropped from their program, or something"

I mean, sure, if this was happening then that would be a problem. But unless I've missed something, it hasn't and isn't?
 

Nintex

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
672
User was banned for 1 week: Dismissing assault cases and minimizing the concerns of women after receiving previous warnings/bans for similar behaviour.
My feeling is that people are barking up the wrong trees.
Weinstein was just... ugh, but he was like the only 'top guy' that got caught and there have to be more Weinstein's out there.

I mean, it reminds me of the 2008 financial crisis, when a few hedge fund managers got in trouble but the CEO's and managers of the big banks walked off without a scratch.
In Hollywood the focus seems to be on actors who have done some shitty things in the past. Like Affleck touching someone inappropriately in some MTV thing when he was young.

The same with the James Franco story. Sure, he might've pushed for plastics to be removed or whatever, but what about the director? He/she is ultimately responsible for everyone's safety on the set.
What about the agents that knew all about Weinstein and still send the girls up to his room? Or all the producers and directors that must've known about Kevin Spacey's issues and still put others at risk.

The actors are an easy target because everyone knows them and people love it when a celebrity drops from fame (see Michael Jackson / Kevin Spacey etc.).
In that sense there is a 'witch' hunt, because the targeting seems very limited.
 

Commedieu

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
15,025
Are you making his point for him here? Since when is unwanted flirtation sexual assault? The other two clearly are, but flirting?

Unwanted flirting is sexual harassment. Come on.

Edit@ above. In no sense is there a witchhunt. Franco was actually sexuality harassing women.

It would be a witch hunt, if he wasn't and had tapes proving it.
 

Addleburg

The Fallen
Nov 16, 2017
5,078
But why do we need to express in a black or white mentality?
We don't know if these allegations are true or not. Were you there during the sexual assaults? Have you seen them? Can you testify?
Or are you believing people you do not know nothing about, only because you read it on the internet?
Innocent until proved guilty is a human right guaranteed by Human Rights:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights


http://www.claiminghumanrights.org/udhr_article_11.html

You're now posting links to Human Rights Wikipedia articles.

You're also now saying that if a sexual assault occurred between two people, we shouldn't believe the victim unless we were in the room to witness it. Even if other women can independently speak to encountering similar behavior with the same person. Even when people close to the victims can verify being told about their experiences long before any public "witch hunt" began. Even when people in power have historically been more likely to see themselves as untouchable.

You honestly come off as the type of person who will quote dictionary definitions of words that have taken on different connotations in broad society, just to prove that someone's use of that word is wrong. I don't know why this comes to mind, but it does. Perhaps because you seem more concerned with victims not having sufficiently prepared recording equipment to log their assaulter's actions than you are with the long, worrying, trend of misconduct in Hollywood and other systems of power inequity.
 

Rogote

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,606
Unwanted flirting is sexual harassment. Come on.

Edit@ above. In no sense is there a witchhunt. Franco was actually sexuality harassing women.

It would be a witch hunt, if he wasn't and had tapes proving it.

Can you clarify on your first point a bit, since I have never dated in my 28 years of time so I'm a super beginner in these things. If I go to a bar and I go to talk to someone and start maybe flirt a bit, and the person isn't into it, it's sexual harassment from the get go, or only if I insist on doing it after she makes it perfectly clear that she wants nothing for me?

As for your second point, isn't tapes needed as prove of guilt, not innocence, traditionally? I mean I believe Franco is up to no good, but seems like a dangerous mindset to go with.
 

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,761
Cape Cod, MA
I mean, sure, if this was happening then that would be a problem. But unless I've missed something, it hasn't and isn't?
Right. As I keep pointing out Jeremy Piven's TV show is still on, and he's been accused of worse than touching someone's knee. Stallone has been accused of *much* worse than that too, and Creed 2 continues filming.

Spacey somewhat admitted his actions and was dropped from his show and a movie (that he'd been paid for). There's a show in the UK called White Gold that has put Season 2 on hold while allegations against it's lead are looked into. There's probably a few others.
 

Heisenberg726

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
1,075
Who's he talking about that got falsely accused?

Just false accusations in general. For example, he stated that an actor he knew had touched an actress's back during an interview to console her, and then apologized 3+ times in person and through email to her. A few years later, that actor got a phone call from her lawyer stating that he had sexually harassed her. These are the false/"childish" acts that he is talking about.

He's not trying to discredit the movement. In fact, he states that #metoo is a great thing.
 

cognizant

Member
Dec 19, 2017
13,756
It's not a witch hunt Liam. It's just...a hunt. And the guilty will be punished!

Anyway, I think some people need to realise that celebrities live in bubbles, they're not your friends, they don't live the same kind of lives as you, and after a certain point during their ascent from sweet newcomers like Daisy Ridley and John Boyega to the level of Jennifer Lawrence and Tom Cruise, they lose sight of things we common peasants have to deal with on a daily basis. Things like shopping at Tesco, getting cash from an ATM, etc, and yes, ultimately they lose their morals and ethics, having had to shed a little every step of their torrid journey to super stardom, until they're wondering out loud why sexually assaulting people is such a big deal, why are the peasants making such a ruckus?
 

Heisenberg726

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
1,075
Unwanted flirting is sexual harassment. Come on.

Edit@ above. In no sense is there a witchhunt. Franco was actually sexuality harassing women.

It would be a witch hunt, if he wasn't and had tapes proving it.

I don't know if unwanted flirting is harassment per se, it's more just annoying behavior.

If it goes too far and repeatedly happens even if you tell them to stop, then it is harassment.

Calling one instance of unwanted flirting that doesn't go too far harassment is basically what Liam is saying is childish
 

Senjy89

Member
Oct 25, 2017
49
If I go to a bar and I go to talk to someone and start maybe flirt a bit, and the person isn't into it, it's sexual harassment from the get go, or only if I insist on doing it after she makes it perfectly clear that she wants nothing for me?

If she makes it clear that she isn't into it, then yeah you should stop. ( Not saying "you" as the poster, only the hypothetical you.)

Annoying maybe. Sexual harassment? Yeah, think this is what Liam was getting at.

If it's constant and unwanted , then of course it´s sexual harassment, especially when it involves potientially damaging power dynamics ( such as boss hitting on employee).
 

Commedieu

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
15,025
Can you clarify on your first point a bit, since I have never dated in my 28 years of time so I'm a super beginner in these things. If I go to a bar and I go to talk to someone and start maybe flirt a bit, and the person isn't into it, it's sexual harassment from the get go, or only if I insist on doing it after she makes it perfectly clear that she wants nothing for me?

As for your second point, isn't tapes needed as prove of guilt, not innocence, traditionally? I mean I believe Franco is up to no good, but seems like a dangerous mindset to go with.

Let's say you were in a bar and a man kept making unwanted contact with you. Leers, winks, licking lips, or Flirting that you dont respond to. That feeling you get? That would be the feeling of sexual harassment if you made it clear that you didn't want to be bothered, and he kept at it. That much is very simple to figure out. And it's generally in a work place. Not a bar. Unless it's with work mates, at a bar. Then run through the same exercise of a man blowing on you saying he needs to cool you down on account of you being so hot.


The second thing, no not literally tapes. Just truth. Like what happened to adam sandler. I said earlier people lie, but it's rarely a case of multiple women across a nation coming together to take you down.
 

Casual

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,547
Let's say you were in a bar and a man kept making unwanted contact with you. Leers, winks, licking lips, or Flirting that you dont respond to. That feeling you get? That would be the feeling of sexual harassment if you made it clear that you didn't want to be bothered, and he kept at it. That much is very simple to figure out. And it's generally in a work place. Not a bar. Unless it's with work mates, at a bar. Then run through the same exercise of a man blowing on you saying he needs to cool you down on account of you being so hot.


The second thing, no not literally tapes. Just truth. Like what happened to adam sandler. I said earlier people lie, but it's rarely a case of multiple women across a nation coming together to take you down.
Leers, winks, and licking lips?

Where did you learn to flirt?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,263
This is a bit of an anachronism. Also at least in the Anglosphere, I would say common law but this was true in Scotland as well, being a witch isn't a crime so much as maleficium is, and some people were absolutely under the impression that they had indeed committed an act of maleficium. So as much as very few, though I would assume there were some, people thought they had signed Satan's black book, plenty thought they had committed a crime. That's part of the reason we occasionally see totally uncoerced admissions of witchcraft.

I don't know if i would call it an anachronism, witches still exist and people fear them and they also pay them for their services. Like im pretty sure i saw news about Mexico's own "Grand Warlock" predictinp Trump's defeat lol.
 

AlexCampy89

Banned
Nov 16, 2017
956
You're now posting links to Human Rights Wikipedia articles.

You're also now saying that if a sexual assault occurred between two people, we shouldn't believe the victim unless we were in the room to witness it. Even if other women can independently speak to encountering similar behavior with the same person. Even when people close to the victims can verify being told about their experiences long before any public "witch hunt" began. Even when people in power have historically been more likely to see themselves as untouchable.

You honestly come off as the type of person who will quote dictionary definitions of words that have taken on different connotations in broad society, just to prove that someone's use of that word is wrong. I don't know why this comes to mind, but it does. Perhaps because you seem more concerned with victims not having sufficiently prepared recording equipment to log their assaulter's actions than you are with the long, worrying, trend of misconduct in Hollywood and other systems of power inequity.


Man, You got this wrong.
Maybe my english is too poor and I lack the communication skills to make my points valid. No idea, really.

But I'm going to try one last time to explain what I've meant:

We, comfortably sitted on our chairs today, have no idea of what happened the day the allegedly assault took place. We were not there. We don't know personally neither of the involved parties.
Guilty doesn't mean just "to be found guilty as charged", but also "character assassination".
Ok, you are innocent, but I won't hire you anymore to avoid controversy.
We (I'm using collective "we" as online community) have already deemed a person guilty just because "always believe the women" is the get go, lucky mantra.

The MeToo movement should ask for justice, should fund the women that makes accusation, give them legal and physical protections, psychological counseling, etc.
Should bring the accused ones in a tribunal, press charges against them sue them, etc.
But that's it. Allow Justice to run its course, it's up to a judge and a jury to decide wheter or not James Franco (this is just an example) is guilty or not.
But it's not up to us. It's not up to the medias, newspapers, the internet, etc.

With this I've spent my last message on this thread.
This is mostly a VG forum, I should stick to VG alone.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
117,372
Can you clarify on your first point a bit, since I have never dated in my 28 years of time so I'm a super beginner in these things. If I go to a bar and I go to talk to someone and start maybe flirt a bit, and the person isn't into it, it's sexual harassment from the get go, or only if I insist on doing it after she makes it perfectly clear that she wants nothing for me?

Generally, if you try to flirt and the other person isn't into it, continuing to press the subject is considered uncouth. If she outright tells you to leave her alone and you keep at it, she could absolutely accuse you of harassment.

Basically, be a respectful adult and acknowledge that you are not owed and do not inherently deserve her attention just because you exist and you're fine. Nobody's going to burn you alive for getting shot down unless you're an ass or a creep about it.
 

Commedieu

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
15,025
I don't know if unwanted flirting is harassment per se, it's more just annoying behavior.

If it goes too far and repeatedly happens even if you tell them to stop, then it is harassment.

Calling one instance of unwanted flirting that doesn't go too far harassment is basically what Liam is saying is childish

Fortunately we don't have to define these things on what a man thinks is harassment. The law does for the workplace.

It's idiotic to see the #metoo movement, cast aside the fact that it's multiple people making allegations, that often involve unwanted flirting as a part of the total power dynamic of a superior, to then reduce it all to a single instance of someone asking someone out not being that bad. Or, breast touching?

There is a right side of this whole issue, and a wrong side. Liam and folks that think like him are part of the problem.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,459
CBS canceled Piven's TV show way back at the end of November.


The decision comes following allegations by several women that the procedural drama star sexually harassed them on past projects. Piven has vehemently denied the allegations and even took a lie detector test to try to prove the claims unfounded.

At any rate, with Crowd's ratings on Sunday, the decision to not order an additional nine episodes to complete a freshman season couldn't have been too difficult. The most recent episode had 7.8 million viewers but only a 1.1 rating among adults 18-49 — that's enough to barely save some shows, but presumably not enough to justify keeping it going for CBS given the controversy.

Looks like it just wasn't off the allegations, though they factored in of course

http://ew.com/tv/2017/11/27/jeremy-piven-wisdom-crowd-canceled/
 

Cocaloch

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
4,562
Where the Fenians Sleep
I don't know if i would call it an anachronism, witches still exist and people fear them and they also pay them for their services. Like im pretty sure i saw news about Mexico's own "Grand Warlock" predictinp Trump's defeat lol.

It's an anachronism in the sense that it's projecting a modern view, "witches don't exist", regardless of its validity back onto the past in order to understand what happened.
 

Commedieu

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
15,025
Annoying maybe. Sexual harassment? Yeah, think this is what Liam was getting at.

Also, it's innocent until proven guilty, not the other way. Or did that change?

These are private workplaces, not courts of law. Multiple women coming forward about you, who are vetted, is enough to cut the business relationship.

Your comment suggests that companies won't look into these things, that a horrible woman just sends an email and someone is fired the next day. No, they look into it and weigh the situation.

No one is getting instantly shitcanned.
 

Deleted member 11157

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,880
Looks like he doesn't follow the news or use social media either. I think when these guys are out here rationalizing or defending, they don't have all the up to the second info that us not-famous people do and only hear a portion of the accusations. Or at least that what it feels like.