NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,823
I did.

No one has explained why these same posts weren't made throughout the Crash remakes.

I was 18 when Crash 1 debuted on ps1 and my uni friends and I all agreed back then the game was racist.

Everyone fighting for that same point for this game in the OP, where were you with Crash?

the Crash design is based on a more Polynesian/Hawaiian design, not African. The Crash design also doesn't appear to use exaggerated, historically racist features that draw pretty clear comparisons to sambo caricatures that were used to demean Africans and people of African decent.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
Yeah, those lips + dreadlocks + being the only black characters visible in the game is definitely not cool. Like, there's nothing unambiguous about those giant red lips. That needs to change.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
I'm kinda surprised I didn't notice it.

I imagine it's not that difficult of a change should they decided to.
 

Illusion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
Are you white. Do you not see how problematic, negative and racist that trope is? It plays on the idea that tribal people are "savages" for hunting a colonialist. There is no such thing as, what you call an "adventurer".
If they are just "savages" yes that's problematic.

If they are people who are protecting themselves from outsiders, or the character stole something of theirs. I don't see a problem of a tribe of people seeking something back or defending their land from fear. Many stories of "white adventurers" that bring up these stories fail to mention how they were the villains or bad guys in these situations. And the reason a tribe may even be fearful of outsiders because they might had a history of white men killing their own, stealing from them or raping their people.

If the game can reflect that while without dumbing down a tribe of people or making them look and act subhuman through pure savage behavior or depict them through racist depictions. Then yes I'm fine with the idea of a white adventurer being hunted down by tribal men. But the way things are represented now, I rather just see the removal of this portion of the game then seeing an attempt to rectify it when they don't see the problem.

Edit:

I should go without saying, I am listening and I do think you have solid points and I should be quiet and listen more. Let alone realize I shouldn't be part of these discussions.
I do think there is a long rooted racism in the depiction of tribes man in all forms of mediums. I want to be someone who can root out these racial stereotypes that depicts black people in discriminatory ways.

I will be quiet and listen.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 179

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,548
My first thought during the stream was the Grimalkyne from Monster Hunter. Now that this is pointed out to me, yeah it's not cool. I'm assuming it's a case of senselessness and not outright 'hi we're racists!'
 

nelsonroyale

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,135
As fellow a person of colour I think that you should shut the fuck up. You are not helping at all nor showing support for our fellow Black brothers and sisters. The caricature is racist full stop, it needs to be removed period.



Zelda is base on European fantasy which itself harbours problematic racism. Especially in regards to Gannondorf being base on Arab and yet is the bad guy or how dark skin equals evil or how Link and Zelda being chosen by the gods and are white.



I know that you are banned, and rightfully so, but the Crash Bandicoot series does have a racism problem in regards to how Papu Papu is portrayed as it's the tried stereotype of a fat Polynesian, which is made even worse in the Crash Team Racing remake.



Indigenous/tribal people have been heavily marginalised not helped by the fact that all negative stereotype of them originated from pulp comics.

Any representation of them must be done in a respectful manner not present a false negative or racist image.

Ideally non-Indigenous/tribal people should not be using them in their games/story at all as they do not have the right as it is not their culture thus not their experience.




Oh wow that blatant



Oh wow that's disappointing to see from a Sony game. Reminds me of the Kirby super star game and how the racist image was changed in the remake.

But yeah, it's not fun being non-white as you're always on the look out see if any image is racist or not and it just gets tiring.



Sadly that's the problem with racist, especially gamers. They don't want to listen or really care.

It's kinda why I don't hang around here very often as I don't feel safe and I feel that the video game industry as a whole is just pushing me out. 😕



Are you white. Do you not see how problematic, negative and racist that trope is? It plays on the idea that tribal people are "savages" for hunting a colonialist. There is no such thing as, what you call an "adventurer".

Well, you make valid points, and I probably agree with a fair amount of that. I think this is a wider concern you are articulating aruond the representation non-white and particularly black people in media which is pretty pervasive. I take your points. my activism isn't mainly focused on racial issues, but rather climate change and biodiversity, so I probably don't focus on this to the extent you do. It is good to fight hard on these issues, so on balance my response was perhaps complacent. But as I said, I take your points and understand there is a wider conversation about pervasive tropes, particularly of what are framed as 'tribal peoples'.

As a fellow activist, I don't think your response does you any favours. Nor could you lable me as some alt righ cretin, given the types of activism I do..
 

zashga

Losing is fun
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,262
Yeah, this gave me pause when it was otherwise one of the best-looking games in Sony's showcase. Hopefully it gets addressed somehow.
 

JoJokomoko

Member
May 31, 2019
313
Thailand
Ah yeap. That explains it too. Lotta asian countries still on that Ooga Booga shit when it comes to black people
My first thought during the stream was the Grimalkyne from Monster Hunter. Now that this is pointed out to me, yeah it's not cool. I'm assuming it's a case of senselessness and not outright 'hi we're racists!'


I believe this is just a case of devs being clueless and ignorant with no harm intention. I'm a media student from Thailand and I understand that sometimes we took an inspiration from various things around the world and put them into our work without knowing the meaning behind it. It took me many years from studying abroad and prior to joinging this website to educate myself and realise that it was considered offensive to depict a specific group of people in such ways.

But that's kind of a problem in Asia in general. We don't really dive deep or learn about this topic much and we usually think it's just a cultural thing and people in those culture presented themselves as such.
 

Schlomo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,144
Horizon 2 also had "evil savages" that made me pause for a second. Of course Aloy is kind of a tribesperson herself, but that group of masked guys coming at her at the end of the trailer did seem to resemble the trope a little too closely.
 

SENPAIatLARGE

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,501
Horizon 2 also had "evil savages" that made me pause for a second. Of course Aloy is kind of a tribesperson herself, but that group of masked guys coming at her at the end of the trailer did seem to resemble the trope a little too closely.
Those probably aren't savages and are part of a group of enemies that have a better understanding of machines and technology
 
Oct 25, 2017
33,274
Atlanta GA
Those probably aren't savages and are part of a group of enemies that have a better understanding of machines and technology

Horizon has also shown that all the tribes are multiracial, there's no stark black/white divide like there is with these characters in LDI. The only non-white character shown are these racist caricatures.

It's not difficult to get y'all. The context matters.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,831
Ah yeap. That explains it too. Lotta asian countries still on that Ooga Booga shit when it comes to black people
InbornWiltedIzuthrush-size_restricted.gif
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,935
I did.

No one has explained why these same posts weren't made throughout the Crash remakes.

I was 18 when Crash 1 debuted on ps1 and my uni friends and I all agreed back then the game was racist.

Everyone fighting for that same point for this game in the OP, where were you with Crash?
Mans completely clams up and leaves the thread when the question gets turned back on him. You guys can are way too obvious sometimes.
 

Bishop89

What Are Ya' Selling?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
35,562
Melbourne, Australia
Devs should definitely be made aware of this. If Sony is publishing this, them too.

I don't think it was intentional but yeh needs to be replaced. Wouldn't think it'd be difficult to make some minor cosmetic changes.
 

vodalus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,220
CT
They used extremely racist tropes. It's not like this is a grey area. If they were just indigenous people, I'd wait for context and presentation, while suspecting garden variety racism. But once you start invoking the most harmful stereotypes about Black people, you have to wonder why this wasn't caught by Sony. The timing is revolting so I can only hope they simply missed it somehow.
 

Tailzo

Fallen Guardian
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,065
As an African, I'm now surprised I Didn't notice this at when watching the stream. But yeah this is not good and should be removed.
Thanks, I was searching for a reply from an African. I was also thinking it took generic african inspired design to a negative and cartoony look, but being from northern europe myself I wasn't sure how it would make Africans feel.

For example, I'm half Norwegian and half french. The worst caricatures of baguette eating coward feminine french men do not make me feel angry or sad. Rather I think it's stupid, unless it is in a cartoon for kids. Same for vikings being presented as bloodthirsty, stupid and big.

Anyway, this shoukd be changed.
 

bell_hooks

Banned
Nov 23, 2019
275
User Banned (3 Months): Condescending and inflammatory rhetoric towards black members on the topic of anti-black racism.

Black people all over the world share prejudice, that's why BLM movement is universal despite being focused on situation in US.
But do you think all black people share same cultural expierience? Africa is huge continent with more ethnic groups that you can imagine.
I hate how African Americans see Africa as one fairy tale land. It's not like that at all. And it is ignorant towards varied ethnic groups of Africa.
Problem comes from other groups also seeing Africa like that, but are they portraying black people in US or black Africans? Or maybe some specific group of Africans. And yes it is most of the time racist generalization but towards black Africans.
Concerns in regards to racist portrayal are legitimate, but we should stop thinking black Americans have same exact experience as every culture in Africa.
My point is people try to do good but by generalizing African cultures they hijack them for themselves.
It's like me as a polish person being offended by "redneck" portrayal of southern americans. I know that in US white people are white people, but not in rest of the world. It is not my culture.
Same goes for black people, they suffer a lot in US and rest of the world so solidarity is great. But let's not think that black person from US has right to claim every culture of Africa and dictate how it should be portrayed.
On regars to game I have no context what are they try to portray and they better explain themselves.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
They used extremely racist tropes. It's not like this is a grey area. If they were just indigenous people, I'd wait for context and presentation, while suspecting garden variety racism. But once you start invoking the most harmful stereotypes about Black people, you have to wonder why this wasn't caught by Sony. The timing is revolting so I can only hope they simply missed it somehow.
Right. They purposely waited a week to show this video so clearly the BLM protests were front of mind. :-/
 
Developer response: will be making changes

Danteyke223

Banned
Oct 24, 2018
937
They are aware of this, and will be modifying the character. It is on their fb page and they have apologized, if they can't tweak the model, they'll remove it.

Full facebook post:


"Dear all,
In answer to a series of inquries made in the last 24 hours regarding certain character deign revealed in the PlayStation PS5 Reveal Event showcase trailer yesterday, the LDI team wish to make the following announcement.
Racist stereotypes of any kind were absolutely not intended, we were not aware of the stereotypical connotations and wish to apologize to anyone who may have been offended by the character design.
In addition, no one (not just limited to team members) has ever commented or hinted on the character designs. However, these characters have not been revealed publicly elsewhere prior to the event.
The design intention was to create characters who are protectors/guardians of a particular mystic region in the world of Little Devil Inside. We were not producing character designs referenced on any real African and/or Afro-American human tribes.
The focus was on creating colorful masks and our designers were researching masks from all various cultures. As characters in the game, they move in groups and use blow darts that paralyze when hit. We wished to add character to the mask design and give it life to it - something like the little Kakamora characters in Disney's Moana.
However, regardless of our intentions, if any people were offended in any way, we sincerely apologize.
We will be making the following fixes to the current characters but if it ends up not being suitable to the game as a whole, we may change the design entirely.
1. Remove the Dreadlocks.
2. Change the bold lips.
3. Change skin tone.
4. Tweak the dart blower so it looks less like a joint.
On a minor note, this is our first game title and we are still quite naive in many areas.
As always, we thank you all for your support!"
 
Oct 30, 2017
762
They are aware of this, and will be modifying the character. It is on their fb page and they have apologized, if they can't tweak the model, they'll remove it.

Full facebook post:


"Dear all,
In answer to a series of inquries made in the last 24 hours regarding certain character deign revealed in the PlayStation PS5 Reveal Event showcase trailer yesterday, the LDI team wish to make the following announcement.
Racist stereotypes of any kind were absolutely not intended, we were not aware of the stereotypical connotations and wish to apologize to anyone who may have been offended by the character design.
In addition, no one (not just limited to team members) has ever commented or hinted on the character designs. However, these characters have not been revealed publicly elsewhere prior to the event.
The design intention was to create characters who are protectors/guardians of a particular mystic region in the world of Little Devil Inside. We were not producing character designs referenced on any real African and/or Afro-American human tribes.
The focus was on creating colorful masks and our designers were researching masks from all various cultures. As characters in the game, they move in groups and use blow darts that paralyze when hit. We wished to add character to the mask design and give it life to it - something like the little Kakamora characters in Disney's Moana.
However, regardless of our intentions, if any people were offended in any way, we sincerely apologize.
We will be making the following fixes to the current characters but if it ends up not being suitable to the game as a whole, we may change the design entirely.
1. Remove the Dreadlocks.
2. Change the bold lips.
3. Change skin tone.
4. Tweak the dart blower so it looks less like a joint.
On a minor note, this is our first game title and we are still quite naive in many areas.
As always, we thank you all for your support!"

Glad they are addressing it. I honestly do believe this was done in ignorance. Hopefully they've learned something from this.
 

Deleted member 46489

User requested account closure
Banned
Aug 7, 2018
1,979
They are aware of this, and will be modifying the character. It is on their fb page and they have apologized, if they can't tweak the model, they'll remove it.

Full facebook post:


"Dear all,
In answer to a series of inquries made in the last 24 hours regarding certain character deign revealed in the PlayStation PS5 Reveal Event showcase trailer yesterday, the LDI team wish to make the following announcement.
Racist stereotypes of any kind were absolutely not intended, we were not aware of the stereotypical connotations and wish to apologize to anyone who may have been offended by the character design.
In addition, no one (not just limited to team members) has ever commented or hinted on the character designs. However, these characters have not been revealed publicly elsewhere prior to the event.
The design intention was to create characters who are protectors/guardians of a particular mystic region in the world of Little Devil Inside. We were not producing character designs referenced on any real African and/or Afro-American human tribes.
The focus was on creating colorful masks and our designers were researching masks from all various cultures. As characters in the game, they move in groups and use blow darts that paralyze when hit. We wished to add character to the mask design and give it life to it - something like the little Kakamora characters in Disney's Moana.
However, regardless of our intentions, if any people were offended in any way, we sincerely apologize.
We will be making the following fixes to the current characters but if it ends up not being suitable to the game as a whole, we may change the design entirely.
1. Remove the Dreadlocks.
2. Change the bold lips.
3. Change skin tone.
4. Tweak the dart blower so it looks less like a joint.
On a minor note, this is our first game title and we are still quite naive in many areas.
As always, we thank you all for your support!"
I think that's a good response. Racist caricatures are embedded deeply in our culture, and even if you might have subconsciously fallen prey to one, acknowledging the issue and making changes goes a long way.
 

Danteyke223

Banned
Oct 24, 2018
937
Glad they are addressing it. I honestly do believe this was done in ignorance. Hopefully they've learned something from this.
Eh I wish they would address also when this game is coming out. The backers are fuming cause this seems to be a PS console exclusive for awhile but people backed a Wii U / Xbox version. I can't wait for them to take a Epic exclusive deal on the PC end. Game has been in development for around 5-6 years, with an engine reboot, and constant silence from the dev team, with barely any progress made on the game.

The devs keep shielding themselves that oh well this is our first game please be patient, and then they kinda just go away for months. I'm surprised they actually gave a comment about the whole caricature thing. Guess that would have effected their money support from Sony or the other publisher.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,635
UK
All these users catching bans in this thread because they were willing to die on the hill for concern trolling for the devs and dismissing concerns of racism while the developer themselves responded better.
They are aware of this, and will be modifying the character. It is on their fb page and they have apologized, if they can't tweak the model, they'll remove it.

Full facebook post:


"Dear all,
In answer to a series of inquries made in the last 24 hours regarding certain character deign revealed in the PlayStation PS5 Reveal Event showcase trailer yesterday, the LDI team wish to make the following announcement.
Racist stereotypes of any kind were absolutely not intended, we were not aware of the stereotypical connotations and wish to apologize to anyone who may have been offended by the character design.
In addition, no one (not just limited to team members) has ever commented or hinted on the character designs. However, these characters have not been revealed publicly elsewhere prior to the event.
The design intention was to create characters who are protectors/guardians of a particular mystic region in the world of Little Devil Inside. We were not producing character designs referenced on any real African and/or Afro-American human tribes.
The focus was on creating colorful masks and our designers were researching masks from all various cultures. As characters in the game, they move in groups and use blow darts that paralyze when hit. We wished to add character to the mask design and give it life to it - something like the little Kakamora characters in Disney's Moana.
However, regardless of our intentions, if any people were offended in any way, we sincerely apologize.
We will be making the following fixes to the current characters but if it ends up not being suitable to the game as a whole, we may change the design entirely.
1. Remove the Dreadlocks.
2. Change the bold lips.
3. Change skin tone.
4. Tweak the dart blower so it looks less like a joint.
On a minor note, this is our first game title and we are still quite naive in many areas.
As always, we thank you all for your support!"
I sent them a message on Facebook so it's good they have responded now and are aiming to fix this racist caricature design or willing to entirely remove it.

This is how developers should respond, not be defensive or give non-apologies but be willing to change things based on feedback. Hope there is more positive representation also of non-white characters to go along.
 

Mahonay

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,361
Pencils Vania
They are aware of this, and will be modifying the character. It is on their fb page and they have apologized, if they can't tweak the model, they'll remove it.

Full facebook post:


"Dear all,
In answer to a series of inquries made in the last 24 hours regarding certain character deign revealed in the PlayStation PS5 Reveal Event showcase trailer yesterday, the LDI team wish to make the following announcement.
Racist stereotypes of any kind were absolutely not intended, we were not aware of the stereotypical connotations and wish to apologize to anyone who may have been offended by the character design.
In addition, no one (not just limited to team members) has ever commented or hinted on the character designs. However, these characters have not been revealed publicly elsewhere prior to the event.
The design intention was to create characters who are protectors/guardians of a particular mystic region in the world of Little Devil Inside. We were not producing character designs referenced on any real African and/or Afro-American human tribes.
The focus was on creating colorful masks and our designers were researching masks from all various cultures. As characters in the game, they move in groups and use blow darts that paralyze when hit. We wished to add character to the mask design and give it life to it - something like the little Kakamora characters in Disney's Moana.
However, regardless of our intentions, if any people were offended in any way, we sincerely apologize.
We will be making the following fixes to the current characters but if it ends up not being suitable to the game as a whole, we may change the design entirely.
1. Remove the Dreadlocks.
2. Change the bold lips.
3. Change skin tone.
4. Tweak the dart blower so it looks less like a joint.
On a minor note, this is our first game title and we are still quite naive in many areas.
As always, we thank you all for your support!"
That was a pretty quick response.

I had to look up where they were based. Seoul.
 

travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
It looks like the whole game has a "white colonial explorer" vibe, don't know if he or his boss(?) are supposed to be good guys but the depictions in the OP are well over the line.
 

Jon_Sama

Member
Aug 19, 2018
618
So we have friendly NPCs in the form of white people, living in an orderly town.
And then we have, wildlife, fantasy beasts and.... black people depicted in a historically racist savage manner, as enemy NPCs.

How can people be blind to this blatant display of racism?

Even if you remove the costumes from the equation, you still have black people displayed as just another enemy type, and the only enemy type that is human as well, shown so far anyway. Still a terrible look.
 

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
9,163
I can definitely see the issues here, I think if you tweaked the enemy design it'd be less colonial. Since it's South Korean, I can see it being done out of ignorance rather than deliberate malice. Doesn't excuse it, certainly if it's explained to them and they keep the design as is. It's 100% racist.

The rest of the game looks great, they just need to tweak tose designs for sure before release.
 

ThreepQuest64

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
5,735
Germany
Yes, both do have issues but they are decidedly different. Horizon's appropriation has been modified to take a bit of everything, mix and mash it and distribute it among every tribe each comprising of folks of varying race and gender. The player, inhabiting Aloy, was an outsider to one of the tribes due to circumstances of her birth whilst still being part of the greater whole. Her role was not that of a colonist. So, the appropriations are deliberately haphazard and superficial.

Contrast that to LDI where there are juxtaposition of what seemingly looks like an adventurer from "Civilized and posh" Victorian/Elizabethan England is sent on a quest by his old english mentor to deal with encroaching threats. One of these threats are people, distinguished by their dreadlocks and masks, identifying them as one of African tribes- who IRL's history have been reduced to caricatures as "threatening Savages" that the white man brought enlightenment to (i.e. colonized them). So, the game essentially plays out the sequence from which caricatures have been derived and exploited in pop culture throughout the last few decades in tv shows, movies and games.
Such a good post. Thank you writing this!