Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
However, regardless of our intentions, if any people were offended in any way, we sincerely apologize.
We will be making the following fixes to the current characters but if it ends up not being suitable to the game as a whole, we may change the design entirely.
1. Remove the Dreadlocks.
2. Change the bold lips.
3. Change skin tone.
4. Tweak the dart blower so it looks less like a joint.
On a minor note, this is our first game title and we are still quite naive in many areas.
Emphasis mine but holy shit was that a sorry you were offended but we are new to making games (having kickstarted this over half a decade ago) and well change these things people called us out in?
I dunno about you but when I think of mystical tribes I think of them having dreadlocks and smoking a joint too /s
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,954
Black people all over the world share prejudice, that's why BLM movement is universal despite being focused on situation in US.
But do you think all black people share same cultural expierience? Africa is huge continent with more ethnic groups that you can imagine.
I hate how African Americans see Africa as one fairy tale land. It's not like that at all. And it is ignorant towards varied ethnic groups of Africa.
Problem comes from other groups also seeing Africa like that, but are they portraying black people in US or black Africans? Or maybe some specific group of Africans. And yes it is most of the time racist generalization but towards black Africans.
Concerns in regards to racist portrayal are legitimate, but we should stop thinking black Americans have same exact experience as every culture in Africa.
My point is people try to do good but by generalizing African cultures they hijack them for themselves.
It's like me as a polish person being offended by "redneck" portrayal of southern americans. I know that in US white people are white people, but not in rest of the world. It is not my culture.
Same goes for black people, they suffer a lot in US and rest of the world so solidarity is great. But let's not think that black person from US has right to claim every culture of Africa and dictate how it should be portrayed.
On regars to game I have no context what are they try to portray and they better explain themselves
You have some nerve putting yourself on a pedestal and declaring yourself an authority on black matters as a non-black individual.

Oh wait....it's not nerve. It's - how do you say it - some sort of.......colonialist imperative to dictate others with a white perspective. I believe there's a word for that but for the life of me I can't think of it 🤔
 

JediTimeBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,811
Emphasis mine but holy shit was that a sorry you were offended but we are new to making games (having kickstarted this over half a decade ago) and well change these things people called us out in?
I dunno about you but when I think of mystical tribes I think of them having dreadlocks and smoking a joint too /s

Yep, that was their explanation.
 

Dussck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,136
The Netherlands
Emphasis mine but holy shit was that a sorry you were offended but we are new to making games (having kickstarted this over half a decade ago) and well change these things people called us out in?
I dunno about you but when I think of mystical tribes I think of them having dreadlocks and smoking a joint too /s
They apologised and they are going to change it. What more do you want? Having them delete their source files and spent a lifetime in jail?

Come on, people.
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,725
Tel Aviv
  1. Quick Response
  2. Making Changes
  3. Acknowledging more changed may be necessary and open to change the entire design
Some of the wording there are a bit iffy ("if anyone is offended") but hell - Words don't matter as much as actions, and the actions here are exactly what we should want. If we always say that we don't want empty words without actions, it also goes the other way around - I'm fine with so-so wordings if the the right actions are taken.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,576
However, regardless of our intentions, if any people were offended in any way, we sincerely apologize.

One key to a sincere apology is avoiding passive voice.

Don't apologize if "people were offended". Apologize because you did something offensive.

Im pretty numb to this shit at this point... I guess it's possible that the lack of diversity on their team lead to an ignorant design rather than a hateful one. But when it comes time to make amends, just take your lumps, don't pretend this just happened passively.
 

Scruffy8642

Member
Jan 24, 2020
2,857
I think the quick response says a lot. Honestly this trope is so common in video games that the thought didn't even cross my mind, and I can totally see why it might not have crossed theirs. Gonna give them the benefit of the doubt. But that just emphasises why diversity in workplaces is important to begin with.
 

Skittles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,322
They apologised and they are going to change it. What more do you want? Having them delete their source files and spent a lifetime in jail?

Come on, people.
Not give a half assed "sorry that you were offended" "apology". It slyly shifts the onus onto the consumer instead of them. How hard is it to say "we realize this is offensive, we're very sorry for doing this"?
 
May 24, 2019
22,368
So African masks cannot be used in anything now bc they are racist?

Not saying they were never used for racism..

It's not just the mask, it's the entire headhunter caracature.
You might notice WB and Disney have banned and buried their own cartoons depicting tribal stereotypes for decades now.

Like, could you imagine a modern game where you fought funny little red skinned guys throwing tomahawks going "woo woo woo"?

For the most part we've gotten away from doing native people like that and anything bringing us back there is rightly seen as outragious.
 
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Valcrist

Tic-Tac-Toe Champion
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,776
I understand that "sorry if you were offended" is a bullshit sort of fake apology, but if you read the actual post - it doesn't even read like they are pushing the blame on anyone else. "if anyone was offended in any way, we sincerely apologize" sounds like an alternatively worded version of that, but in this case to me it reads more like "We apologize to the people who we offended." which is entirely different. Nuance, people.
 

Blizz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,434
The wording is a bit iffy but to be fair they might not have a person on the team who's first language is English or an official translator, I think they're being genuine with their apology.
The whole ordeal is troubling but they did reply quite fast and did point out how exactly they were going to handle it, I honestly don't think they designed it with ill intent but it came off as such when several factors were combined.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
Their response was acceptable. Hopefully they do a second pass on all their designs instead of only fixing the one that was shown publicly.
 

Razmos

Unshakeable One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,890
I like the Devs response, seems genuine and thoughtful and they laid out exactly how they are going to address it rather than just giving a non-apology. Far better than most responses
 

JetBazooka

Banned
Jan 25, 2018
336
This is good to know. This is actually a game I'm going to buy once they make the changes. I didn't know it was in development or was on kick starter or whatever but I think a lot of people been sleeping on this game.
 

Farly

Banned
Sep 27, 2019
5
User Banned (Permanent): Inflammatory false equivalence and dismissive rhetoric. Account in junior phase.
So African masks cannot be used in anything now bc they are racist?

Not saying they were never used for racism..
I agree.
If a typical African mask, is considered racist, why not consider racist Ghost of Tsushima with the typical Japanese samurai suit?
And Guacamelee with all its Mexican tropes?
I think that BLM movement is absolutely right, but we have to be careful and not exceed with extremism too
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
I agree.
If a typical African mask, is considered racist, why not consider racist Ghost of Tsushima with the typical Japanese samurai suit?
And Guacamelee with all its Mexican tropes?
I think that BLM movement is absolutely right, but we have to be careful and not exceed with extremism too

These comparisons are not good.
 

TojoT

Member
Oct 30, 2017
317
  1. Quick Response
  2. Making Changes
  3. Acknowledging more changed may be necessary and open to change the entire design
Some of the wording there are a bit iffy ("if anyone is offended") but hell - Words don't matter as much as actions, and the actions here are exactly what we should want. If we always say that we don't want empty words without actions, it also goes the other way around - I'm fine with so-so wordings if the the right actions are taken.

This is where I'm at.

I won't be pre-ordering or anything, and I'll reserve my final judgement for when impressions from the release build of the game are out.
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,991
You know, I think what matters with racism is intent.

Racism born from misconception and racist pop culture cliches etc... leaves room for people to learn about their mistakes and grow from it.

I dont think they actively set out to insult a specific community.
They just had problematic images of savages ingrained in their minds.

They seem to have understood the mistakes and will probably second guess all their designs in the future.

I'm willing to give them another chance.
 

zashga

Losing is fun
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,251
Glad the devs are receptive to criticism on this. Hopefully it gets addressed to everyone's satisfaction. Except, you know, the people who didn't see a problem in the first place.
 

Epcott

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,279
US, East Coast
I don't think the tribal masks would be much of a problem alone...

...But then you add the dark ashen skin and blowdart on top of that, and you get this typical cartoony "kinda racist safari jungle savage " caricature harkening back to old banned cartoons of the 40's and 50's.

It's like they're going for a Doc Savage by LAIKIA vibe, but forgot the added traces of Tintin in the Congo.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
Why?
This is not a critic, I just want to understand your point of view.
Honestly, I don't see differences between these examples

Depicting Japanese samurai or basing a game around luchador type wrestling is not the same as how these characters were depicted here. There is nothing inherently racist at paying an homage to either of those things the way there is about depicting Africans in the fashion that we see here.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
I agree.
If a typical African mask, is considered racist, why not consider racist Ghost of Tsushima with the typical Japanese samurai suit?
And Guacamelee with all its Mexican tropes?
I think that BLM movement is absolutely right, but we have to be careful and not exceed with extremism too
One of these things is not like the other.mp3
 

texhnolyze

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,385
Indonesia
I understand that "sorry if you were offended" is a bullshit sort of fake apology, but if you read the actual post - it doesn't even read like they are pushing the blame on anyone else. "if anyone was offended in any way, we sincerely apologize" sounds like an alternatively worded version of that, but in this case to me it reads more like "We apologize to the people who we offended." which is entirely different. Nuance, people.
Do note that they're also not native English speakers.
 

Greywaren

Member
Jul 16, 2019
10,087
Spain
They are aware of this, and will be modifying the character. It is on their fb page and they have apologized, if they can't tweak the model, they'll remove it.

Full facebook post:


"Dear all,
In answer to a series of inquries made in the last 24 hours regarding certain character deign revealed in the PlayStation PS5 Reveal Event showcase trailer yesterday, the LDI team wish to make the following announcement.
Racist stereotypes of any kind were absolutely not intended, we were not aware of the stereotypical connotations and wish to apologize to anyone who may have been offended by the character design.
In addition, no one (not just limited to team members) has ever commented or hinted on the character designs. However, these characters have not been revealed publicly elsewhere prior to the event.
The design intention was to create characters who are protectors/guardians of a particular mystic region in the world of Little Devil Inside. We were not producing character designs referenced on any real African and/or Afro-American human tribes.
The focus was on creating colorful masks and our designers were researching masks from all various cultures. As characters in the game, they move in groups and use blow darts that paralyze when hit. We wished to add character to the mask design and give it life to it - something like the little Kakamora characters in Disney's Moana.
However, regardless of our intentions, if any people were offended in any way, we sincerely apologize.
We will be making the following fixes to the current characters but if it ends up not being suitable to the game as a whole, we may change the design entirely.
1. Remove the Dreadlocks.
2. Change the bold lips.
3. Change skin tone.
4. Tweak the dart blower so it looks less like a joint.
On a minor note, this is our first game title and we are still quite naive in many areas.
As always, we thank you all for your support!"

This is great to hear. I'm sure this was absolutely unintended and I'm glad they're addressing it before release.
 

Farly

Banned
Sep 27, 2019
5
There's nothing pejorative about the samurai trope in japanese culture.

Completely different from depicting black/african people as savage beasts.
Ok I get your point. Probably I'm naive, but I've seen they like an African warriors and not savages, and I'm still pretty sure that this is the purpose of the developers
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
Do note that they're also not native English speakers.
Nahhhh they clearly have someone that could get this statement at XDEV so that holds no water. If you're not a native speaker then you are more likely to take more care.

so far we've had Crash, Little Devil Inside and - to add another - Viva Pinata as particularly egregious examples that need to be looked at.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
Black people all over the world share prejudice, that's why BLM movement is universal despite being focused on situation in US.
But do you think all black people share same cultural expierience? Africa is huge continent with more ethnic groups that you can imagine.
I hate how African Americans see Africa as one fairy tale land. It's not like that at all. And it is ignorant towards varied ethnic groups of Africa.
Problem comes from other groups also seeing Africa like that, but are they portraying black people in US or black Africans? Or maybe some specific group of Africans. And yes it is most of the time racist generalization but towards black Africans.
Concerns in regards to racist portrayal are legitimate, but we should stop thinking black Americans have same exact experience as every culture in Africa.
My point is people try to do good but by generalizing African cultures they hijack them for themselves.
It's like me as a polish person being offended by "redneck" portrayal of southern americans. I know that in US white people are white people, but not in rest of the world. It is not my culture.
Same goes for black people, they suffer a lot in US and rest of the world so solidarity is great. But let's not think that black person from US has right to claim every culture of Africa and dictate how it should be portrayed.
On regars to game I have no context what are they try to portray and they better explain themselves.

You should have stopped at the first lines of this post.

Black people all over the world share the common plight of racial prejudice as a result of racist ideas and stereotypes propagated in the various media forms over the past few hundred years.

This particular racist caricature of black people being tribal savages isn't simply exclusive to the region of the Americas, and has directly contributed to a lot of the irrational fear of black people as violent and aggressive that exists in Europe as well as the rest of the world.

As an African myself, I can very easily see and comprehend why an African-American could (and should in fact) take offence at such a problematic portrayal of black people in media. When African Americans are indiscriminately brutalised and killed on the basis of a certain sentiment towards them, that is also derived from centuries of such propagandising stereotyping, it's not particularly hard to comprehend why someone from that demographic wouldn't also feel grieved and hurt by this caricature in a similar way as I (an African) would; off not even more so.

They are aware of this, and will be modifying the character. It is on their fb page and they have apologized, if they can't tweak the model, they'll remove it.

Full facebook post:


"Dear all,
In answer to a series of inquries made in the last 24 hours regarding certain character deign revealed in the PlayStation PS5 Reveal Event showcase trailer yesterday, the LDI team wish to make the following announcement.
Racist stereotypes of any kind were absolutely not intended, we were not aware of the stereotypical connotations and wish to apologize to anyone who may have been offended by the character design.
In addition, no one (not just limited to team members) has ever commented or hinted on the character designs. However, these characters have not been revealed publicly elsewhere prior to the event.
The design intention was to create characters who are protectors/guardians of a particular mystic region in the world of Little Devil Inside. We were not producing character designs referenced on any real African and/or Afro-American human tribes.
The focus was on creating colorful masks and our designers were researching masks from all various cultures. As characters in the game, they move in groups and use blow darts that paralyze when hit. We wished to add character to the mask design and give it life to it - something like the little Kakamora characters in Disney's Moana.
However, regardless of our intentions, if any people were offended in any way, we sincerely apologize.
We will be making the following fixes to the current characters but if it ends up not being suitable to the game as a whole, we may change the design entirely.
1. Remove the Dreadlocks.
2. Change the bold lips.
3. Change skin tone.
4. Tweak the dart blower so it looks less like a joint.
On a minor note, this is our first game title and we are still quite naive in many areas.
As always, we thank you all for your support!"

Glad for the apology and prompt action. On the other hand, what is a "real Afro-American tribe"?

Isnt that actually some kind of star in Korea that apparently everyone knows?

Afaik, yes. And the woman isn't afraid of him, rather she's his biggest fan. So her response is one of surprise but great delight; as you can see her smiling at the end of the gif.

I agree.
If a typical African mask, is considered racist, why not consider racist Ghost of Tsushima with the typical Japanese samurai suit?
And Guacamelee with all its Mexican tropes?
I think that BLM movement is absolutely right, but we have to be careful and not exceed with extremism too

Ugh...!

Context is everything. Japanese people haven't predominantly been depicted as samurai in media for hundreds of years as a means to dehumanise them and portray them in a more bestial, sub-human fashion in the same way has been done to black people.

Similarly for Mexican people with the Lucha libre trope.

You're making a very ignorant false equivalence and trying to minimise the fact that demeaning stereotypes like this "sub-human black savages" one, have had a very real and salient impact in the global societal perception of black people throughout centuries of global history, and have directly contributed to the justification for centuries of atrocities committed against black people (both inside and outside Africa).

So African masks cannot be used in anything now bc they are racist?

Not saying they were never used for racism..

As a black african myself, do you know what I think? I'd much rather they aren't used.

Tribal war masks are a part of my cultural heritage, but given how they've effectively been (mis-)used as a weapon to dehumanise me, i'd simply rather not see them represented in any form in media; apart from that created by black people for the sole purpose of accurate historical representation (which examples like this are ostensibly not).

Stop and consider that if an element of your cultural artistic history had been wielded as a weapon against your ethnic group, over the course of hundreds of years, embedding in the wider societal consciousness an irrational fear of you and an unfairly negative perception, would you want to continue to see that element used in media in any form?

I don't suppose you would.
 
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plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,761
Cape Cod, MA
The Ion Fury debacle has me skeptical until the changes are made and the game is out. Need to see the developers hold firm when they get a backlash of people crying about political correctness and censorship. Hopefully they do hold firm and make the changes.

Whether they're doing it in good faith or not, we don't need racist representations in videogames.
 

JediTimeBoy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,811
There's a difference between "ignorance" and neglect and/or recklessness, and I find it impossible to believe that absolutely everyone involved in this game (at any stage of the pipeline) was completely ignorant to how racist it was.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
OK, the developers being Korean makes all this make a lot more sense to me. I don't know how no one at Sony didn't notice it and say something to them before putting it in their fucking E3 conference (equivalent) though.
 

Valcrist

Tic-Tac-Toe Champion
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,776
There's a difference between "ignorance" and neglect and/or recklessness, and I find it impossible to believe that absolutely everyone involved in this game (at any stage of the pipeline) was completely ignorant to how racist it was.
It is possible that one of the 12 developers making this game knew, who knows? They're from South Korea though, and didn't show the game outside of their studio.

OK, the developers being Korean makes all this make a lot more sense to me. I don't know how no one at Sony didn't notice it and say something to them before putting it in their fucking E3 conference (equivalent) though.
From the statement: " However, these characters have not been revealed publicly elsewhere prior to the event. " I'd assume Sony would have to have seen it, though. So who knows.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,501
You know, I think what matters with racism is intent.

Racism born from misconception and racist pop culture cliches etc... leaves room for people to learn about their mistakes and grow from it.

I dont think they actively set out to insult a specific community.
They just had problematic images of savages ingrained in their minds.

They seem to have understood the mistakes and will probably second guess all their designs in the future.

I'm willing to give them another chance.

Yeah, people can learn and intent is important to recognise. One thing I've learned to help deal with racism as I've grown up is that a lot of it is born out of ignorance rather than hatred, and there's room for people to learn and grow.

Hopefully that's what we see happen here. If the developer is Asian then I can understand how this happened too. Like I said earlier in this thread before finding out where the team was from, this design choice was definitely made without the input of a black person.

This is a textbook example of why game Dev needs more representation though. People would be surprised about how easily stuff like this can slip through the cracks, even in a western studio.

Never underestimate how ignorant people outside of your race or ethnic group can be in regards to what offends that group.
 

Hideocaina

Banned
Apr 19, 2018
90
User Banned (Permanent): Racist troll account.
Nah, they look like African tribal masks, which were often used in pretty racist portrayals of like African savages and stuff in movies.

they look like african masks, like real african poeple wear...oh my god!!!! this is bad!!!





The machinery of this forum begins to boycott another game out of boredom.

Congratulations
 

Hideocaina

Banned
Apr 19, 2018
90
I guess we'll find out in a little more than 24 hours.
Yeah, that sucks. Wish we could move past these shitty tropes

Also, prepare for the same type of defence of this trash that cropped up in response to RE5's "tribal" enemies.
I noticed that too.

Oh, the dread.
As an African, I'm now surprised I Didn't notice this at when watching the stream. But yeah this is not good and should be removed.
Yeah hype I had for the game took a hit


Yeah! cmon!! you all together can boycott another game!! hurry, go to twitter
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
From the statement: " However, these characters have not been revealed publicly elsewhere prior to the event. " I'd assume Sony would have to have seen it, though. So who knows.
Yeah I'd interpret "elsewhere" as to the public. Someone at Sony obviously had to edit the stream together though, but I guess it was only a few frames so it's possible everyone wasn't paying close attention.

they look like african masks, like real african poeple wear...oh my god!!!! this is bad!!!





The machinery of this forum begins to boycott another game out of boredom.

Congratulations
"real african poeple" lmao
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,671
Glad to see the acknowledgement and the desire to be better. Looking forward to the improvements and the game as a whole.