Yeah, anyone saying this "counts" towards the criticism that there's not a single black character to be found outside of an Inkling alt is definitely out of line.
Min Min revealed as ARMS rep in Smash Ultimate
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It's a shame the ARMS stage doesn't have the crowd wearing Min Min masks when she is on the stage. I guess that would mean the audience would have to react based on other playable characters, and that would be an impossible task?
It's legit weird that Robin's didn't get updated when several others did and Chrom clearly had work put in to make him an Echo. A surprisingly sloppy oversight from a game and developer that otherwise is really particular about that.
Piggybacking off this: I brought it up in a couple Discords, but Min Min's moveset is weirdly boilerplate. Her specials are all just standard ARMS stuff, and her uniqueness comes from the specific ARMS she has and certain properties and capabilities in her standard moveset. You could take her moveset as a template and graft it onto any of the ARMS cast fairly decently, and ironically Twintelle's one of the easier to do because she can more naturally have a jab combo to replace Min Min's Kung Fu Combo.
I haven't seen many people saying MinMin addresses the complaints of the black ResetEra community. The desire for darker skinned minorities to want representation in Smash (and all gaming) is fair and criticism of the lack of representation is fair.
MinMin is a female character that also represents a minority ethnicity. It should be viewed as a positive that she is included. Full stop.
The issue is that many here are frustrated it wasn't Twintelle and are taking it too far by actively trying to bring down MinMin's inclusion. I understand their frustration and believe it is justified. Their specific minority wasn't represented and it feels like a slight against them. Many are voicing that frustration and also accepting that a female minority player was still included. Many are trying to diminish the character saying she is whitewashed or that a Chinese character in a Japanese game isn't a minority. Imagine how a Chinese gamer might feel reading these things? It is honestly pretty frustrating to see one minority group lash out at another.
I say this as a white cisgendered male who has on Team Twintelle. I am disappointed that one of the strongest opportunities for black representation in Smash was whiffed. I feel sorry for all the black gamers that will continue without having a character that they can relate to in their favorite fighting game. I am happy for any Chinese gamers that now have an option for them. We can be both disappointed and happy. We don't have to tear down one minority group to prop up another.
I agree. MinMin addresses female and minority inclusion, but "minority" isn't some homogenous group. There are different groups that want different representation. I am happy for the Chinese representation. I empathize with those frustrated by the lack of black representation and hope it comes sooner rather than later. I doubly understand the frustration because Twintelle was one of the strongest shots given the lack of notable black characters in Nintendo IP at this time (hopefully that changes).
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Twintelle doesn't do kicks, last I recall. It was all about her special set of ARMS.
I mean, this thread is doing more for me to stop saying minority and POC and just start saying black and brown which really is not where I want to go. But if this is going to be the response to our disappointment about a franchise that as someone has put so eloquently 'has more electric mice representatitves than dark skin ones" then so be it
Complaints about representation in Smash always feel like confronting the symptom rather than the actual problem to me. Smash has always been about bringing together the all-stars of Nintendo, and there just aren't that many black Nintendo characters that can be considered all-stars. Twintelle not getting in isn't disappointing because Min Min was a worse pick, it's disappointing because Twintelle was the only black Nintendo character realistically up for consideration and she still wasn't important enough to beat out two other characters from her own game.
It's not a problem that Smash can fix. The rest of this DLC pass could consist of Elma, Twintelle, Mr. Sandman, Urbosa, and Anthony freaking Higgs and you'd still be left with the overarching issue of black/brown Nintendo characters always playing second fiddle to more important white characters (and from what I've heard about her "true form", Elma somehow manages to do that to herself!). They would sooner add Rex, Spring Man, Glass Joe, Tingle, and Birthday Suit Samus over any of those picks, not because they're fair skinned but because they are by design more important to their series.
I need to see Nintendo actually start creating characters that are undeniably notable enough to play with the big boys instead of feeling like I'd be lucky to get thrown a bone with some token representation in the form of characters who wouldn't even make it in as Assist Trophies in any other situation. Stuff like Agent 8 and the Octolings being black as default was a good start, and Pokemon's trainers have started making some nice strides in this area although that probably won't be reflected in the Smash roster for obvious reasons. Now let's have Mario's next princess pal be a little less pale, let's see a Fire Emblem lord who isn't white as snow, let's see a Pikmin captain with some color under that helmet, let's see Link get reincarnated a shade darker in his next life. This is what will truly fix the representation problem, for me at least.
They were probably joking.
Ninjara isn't exactly the most popular ARMS character.
You can't be serious lol. Yea "fuck them tho I guess" obviously both should be represented, I think anyone who actually cares about representation of minorities would say that. Both Chinese and Black people have pitiful characterizations in video games, but at least there is a Chinese player in almost every major fighting game (now including Smash Bros). Black people do not have that!
As I said, no one is going to convince me that a fair skinned person with blonde hair is a bigger win for representation than a dark skinned Black character, in which the only other depiction of a darker skinned character in the game is literally a demonic shape shifting entity. There shouldn't even be anything to argue about, both should have had representation from the jump when the game launched. Keep typing weird extrapolations on my keyboard for me tho
User Banned (2 Weeks) - Dismissing Representation
ResetEra is such an odd place. An Asian character would literally be low-hanging fruit in this situation, and everyone knows it. There is not one single dark-skinned or even brown POC in the game. Of course I still consider Min Min a minority, the same way I will consider a Russian a minority in the States. Meanwhile I can't think of a single brown character in the game, and Twintelle would have been a good start on a platform severely lacking in representation for dark skinned POC period...
Seems extremely colorist to me...
Hmmmm, maybe the fans are cheering for the ARMS representative fighter, rather than as 1 ARMS character.
Not entirely relevant in the case of Smash. She has her natural arms, she could use those to slap people. She's design-wise an expy of Bayonetta, her having kicks wouldn't entirely be off-base.
It's not entirely faithful but she has more to work with than the rest of the cast who are all effectively armless. Min Min being so kick-centric benefits her immensely. That is not a benefit that everyone else in the cast necessarily has.
Ninjara is apparently really popular in Japan.
Which only further cements that Sakurai is ultimately a Japanese gamer and developer and really needs to be dragged outside of his comfort zone more.
When people say we should be happy for more minority inclusion when people are voicing their distinct frustration about lack of dark skin people/ black people that is what it reads like to me. It's in this thread. I aint going to placate anyone with quotes. Take it or leave it. The threads on Era were asking for black representation. While people lecture they ignore this blatant fact. They ignore ALL the apologism in those threads.
Look, people can take it however they want to take it but my stance is plain. This character does not address the lack of dark skin characters in this franchise. It's a cool character, it's cool to have another woman. It's cool to have another ethnic minority, but this doesn't do anything for my primary criticism. If you are dark skin, all you get is a roster full of light skin characters and animals. The franchise refuses to put someone with dark skin in a major position. And people are pissed about it and they shouldn't have to pretense every fucking criticism and frustrstion of this franchise they feel with the qualifier "but it is great we got a minority in here either way". It is but why are dark skin people always expected to fucking carry this cross while Nintendo cant put a fucking brown or black person in their game spanning decades of all gaming history?
No offense but I'm not trying to hear anyone minimize the frustration.
Maybe not everyone follows Smash that close but just one look at the roster and that's obvious. Sure a lot of these characters are also big internationally but a lot of them are primarily loved by Japanese players and NA/EU players second. Occasionally we get a primarily western demanded character like Ridley or Banjo but the focus has general been on Nintendo's roster and Japanese third parties.
The only fighters that didn't come from a Japanese company are Diddy Kong, Banjo, K. Rool, and Dark Samus. Arguably Donkey Kong since they use Rareware's redesign and not the arcade original.
Edit: also I think people shouldn't jump to conclusions about if Sakurai has total control over who gets in. He's gone on record about how there are too many Fire Emblem character's and Byleth got in anyway. To me that's a sign Nintendo ultimately has the final say and he just has influence over who can get in. Also 3rd parties are obviously a different matter as deals need to be signed and such.
For those who are saying smash should have a POC character because of how big the roster is I feel miss the point of smash as a whole. While it would be great for Smash to contain prominent representation, I feel that's never going to happen unless the games around smash do the work as smash itself has always meant to be a celebration of popular characters and games, mostly those on Nintendo consoles and therefore it reflects the representation there (mostly via older titles and via Japanese developed titles as well).
This basically means the industry as a whole needs to start having more POC characters, especially lead role character. Get that done and Smash can start adding them since for the most part, it's those lead characters that get added and theres not anywhere near enough, especially when it comes to games published by Nintendo and other Japanese led companies.
This basically means the industry as a whole needs to start having more POC characters, especially lead role character. Get that done and Smash can start adding them since for the most part, it's those lead characters that get added and theres not anywhere near enough, especially when it comes to games published by Nintendo and other Japanese led companies.
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Let me explain it for you:
Old situation: Neither black people nor chinese people have any representation
One (1) new character was about to get announced, so there were 3 plausible new situations:
New situation A: Chinese people get representation, black people keep waiting for it
New situation B: Black people get representation, Chinese people keep waiting for it
New situation C: Lmao white character gets annonced
It's ok to be dissapointed that situation B didn't happen. But taking situation A as a straight up bad thing is pretty racist. I hope Smash gets a black character, but I am super happy that it got a Chinese character now. I also prefer Min Min to Twintelle, because I think she's a cooler character overall, regardless of skin tones, but I would obviously have been very happy for the black community if Twintelle had been announced. It's pretty easy stuff.
This will be my last post on the matter.
I don't think so. Min Min's moveset in this game is very closely tied to her moveset in ARMS and I don't think the most important parts would translate simply. Min Min's left dragon arm makes for a super simple implementation of changing arms, making it immediately clear to the player (especially to players not familiar with ARMS) which arm is which, since the scaly left arm will always be a dragon. This would not be true with most other characters in ARMS, who all, with the exception of Kid Cobra's purple and green arms, have identical left/right arms. It would feel strange as a Smash player for another character to be able to switch the weapons on their right arm but not their left arm. It could work, but it would not be nearly as clear. Being able to have different weapons on each arm is a core part of Min Min's mechanical design in Smash, it's effectively the whole point of why you can input tilts/smashes with both A and B, with different effects for each of them. It would be possible to do this with another character, but it would be less clearly communicated and I don't think it would work nearly as well in motion.
Yeah, I meant to say she uses her actual free arms to slp people during grabs, as opposed to Min Min who does some extra attacks using kicks. Thus choosing Twintell would make her "extra" moves much more situational and a bit more limiting in terms of variance and mixups. Her being a Bayonetta expy would also make it seem more of an Echo-fighter-ish choice, which is what DLC characters were promised to not be.
While I agree that it's important that Chinese people get represented in games, along with other nationalities/ethnicities (like the Vietnamese, Koreans etc.) I think it's somewhat important to note that black people aren't asking for Nigerians, or even American Blacks they are just asking for a black person period. We so far, don't even have the luxury to be talking about getting representations for countries when as a whole we aren't even in the roster.
Please know that I am not trying to group all Asian people together at all, as that would be uncalled for and hopefully that comes across in what I'm trying to say.
Well, you're right that Chinese people at least had "asian representation", so I guess the comparison wasn't perfect. Still, my point remains that it's a step forward in representation even if it's not the one that everyone wanted or expected.
I shouldn't have said that that was gonna be my last post :P
I don't disagree with anything you said. I have not kept up with the middle pages of this thread (I was around when it started and got locked and am just now seeing it again), so I am sure I have missed many of the posts you have issue with. I have seen a few and do know they exist.
I don't expect you to put a qualifier on your frustration either. I am glad you and every other POC that doesn't have their representation is frustrated because you should be. This thread was locked for a reason and a number of people were banned and it wasn't because they lacked a qualifer on their frustration. It is because their frustration became outright anger towards another minority group. That is the only place I take issue and a lot of the discussion has been about not marginalizing a different minority (though plenty hasn't or has used that as an excuse to argue in bad faith).
Be frustrated. Be angry. Want better from Nintendo (and game devs in general). You should. They should be better.
Be frustrated at people claiming any minority representation is progress towards black representation. It really isn't.
I apologize if you feel like I am trying to minimize your frustration or tell you this is a "win" for representation. It isn't for you and I get that.
I would put money on there being no black fighters in the next smash game or the game after that, I don't think you get how unlikely there will be black characters in smash. And this is just an lumping all of black people together, we don't even have luxury of having characters from Nigeria or south africa etc.
This should absolutely be your last post on the matter because you are completely missing the point. Players have been screaming for Black representation since the game's launch, and by 3 or 4 fighter passes in, have been completely ignored. I quite literally NEVER said MinMin being in the game was a bad thing, just that it wasn't what people have been rightfully demanding for years now.
the fact that you are continually putting words in my mouth and then saying that those words that YOU are making up is me being racist is also kind of concerning. Log off
I'd honestly say the only character that is unequivocally unconditionally a bone thrown to the West is Little Mac. Ridley was a decade+-long meme, Dark Samus is one of the lower-effort Echoes, and K. Rool and Banjo both have sizeable Japanese fanbases (with the former arguably winning the Japanese ballot).
So it's frustrating when you have one of the biggest gaming franchises in the world developed with an almost laser focus on the Japanese market. Like it's been cool seeing more Japanese-popular IP like Dragon Quest use it to be exported out to the world, but we don't see a lot going the other way. And it's even more frustrating when it comes to black/brown representation because Japan still woefully sucks at taking it seriously. Ninjara would've been a loss to everyone outside of the Tokyo crowd, and the fact that he was considered up to the end is just depressing. And as noted it's not the greatest look that for a game with such an international design he gravitated to the two explicitly coded Asian.
Y'know, I had figured the whole dragon mechanic would be phased out along with her other unique points but you do have a point on the left ARM being static. That particular emphasis does get lost without the mechanic, and I don't know how big of a concern that is.
I'll note that the "Bayonetta expy" comment is more on how Twintelle's overall design clearly takes notes from Bayonetta, from her posture and physique to the use of her hair and the ability to manipulate time. Smash using Bayonetta for her spirit battle clearly recognizes that. So the act of her kicking doesn't seem as...bizarre.
If she were to be an Echo she'd be one of Min Min, rather obviously.
I think using Min Min's moveset for Twintelle would honestly be an insult to Twintelle. She fucking floats and uses her hair as a weapon. She's very different to the rest of the cast and deserves, and I'd even say needs, her own moveset.
The moveset would obviously be based on Min Min's, every character's moveset is "based on each other's" in ARMS since they follow a certain set of rules. But it can't be the same.
The moveset would obviously be based on Min Min's, every character's moveset is "based on each other's" in ARMS since they follow a certain set of rules. But it can't be the same.
I've seen a lot of rightful frustration in this thread about grouping all Asians together, but people are doing the same thing with Black people. We are also made up of many different ethnicities, backgrounds and nationalities. Even within one African country, you can have several different ethnicities, each with their own distinct culture and history. When people talk about the lack of Black representation, they are talking about the lack of ANY of us. I think it's important to see where this frustration is coming from. Right now, Black people don't have any representation at all in Smash, but Asians do. You can be happy for the inclusion of Chinese character and also realise that Black representation is even more dire in Smash.
Yes, honestly this. And just last week I was arguing for the merit of the term BIPOC with other black folks on this forum. I think it definitely can have its place in uniting people of colour against white supremacy, but the issue is that it is too often used to stifle Black concerns.
Yeah, it's frustrating to endlessly be told you should be satisfied and complacent with the current way things are, even when your concerns are being addressed.
People make it blatantly clear they just want to silence desire to see black and brown characters when their first response is "you got an ethnic minority—what more could you want?"
I don't have dark skin so my take doesn't mean much, but I've never thought of Ganondorf as being a "dark skinned rep"
Ignoring that he's the closest thing Nintendo has to the devil, he doesn't normally have human skin tones. Gerudo do in general, but in the vast majority of his appearances Ganondorf is green. Even when he's closer to brown like in Smash Ultimate, he still looks like a green olive that's been sitting in the fridge too long
That's not to take away from anyone who does feel they're repped by him, it ain't my place to speak on that
It's just... that's setting the bar real low compared to Min Min celebrating her victories in Mandarin
Ignoring that he's the closest thing Nintendo has to the devil, he doesn't normally have human skin tones. Gerudo do in general, but in the vast majority of his appearances Ganondorf is green. Even when he's closer to brown like in Smash Ultimate, he still looks like a green olive that's been sitting in the fridge too long
That's not to take away from anyone who does feel they're repped by him, it ain't my place to speak on that
It's just... that's setting the bar real low compared to Min Min celebrating her victories in Mandarin
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This is a succinct way of how I feel about a lot of what is going on in this thread.
I was typing something regarding this earlier and stopped because I didn't feel like I could put my thoughts into words well enough. I agree that the term is beneficial with regards to providing a unified group for all the under-represented and unheard voices against the majority. It gives a much larger force to pushback against the industries that think 'white-male' is the default.
It can become problematic when you have situations like this where you put a minority character in and use it to dismiss all criticism. It overlooks the fact that the POC community is not homogeneous. Chinese representation is positive, but it doesn't move the needle much for those asking for black/dark skinned representation.
While there is definitely an issue with the industry as a whole, this is a conscious decision on the part of Sakurai and the Smash team. That's something that should be acknowledged as well. There are characters that they could have added but didn't. Twintelle is just the latest example, and a big part of the frustration is because she seemed like our last chance.
For example, I'm not sure why Fire Emblem has so many damn reps, and we didn't get, say, Urbosa from BotW despite Zelda being one of their tent pole franchises. She isn't black, but she would have fulfilled some positive dark skinned brown representation (which is also very under represented in Smash). Even if they had to go with FE:TH, Claude could have been a viable pick too. We could have gotten Elma, or even Marina. People will make excuses for why these characters didn't get in, because they always do, but let's be honest and say that Sakurai could have picked them if he wanted to. We got Cloud Strife even though he hadn't appeared on a Nintendo system at that point, which was a supposed rule back then.
You're right. There's no doubt that Min Min improves the representation of minorities in the game but including a black character was definitely more needed as the situation of the black community is worse.
I still think it could be coming, though. Elma! Though realistically I think Sakurai would prefer Rex + Pyra. But Elma would be cool as fuck.
Thank you for the empathetic response, I appreciate it. ❤ Elma is a possibility, but I'll be honest and say I'm not getting my hopes up haha.
You're probably right lol. They probably just recorded him while actually eating ramen in the studio.
I am both happy we got Min Min and empathetic to those that are understandably hoping for more black representation.
I knew Twintelle was unlikely as she's one of the only characters in ARMS that doesn't use arms to fight. But she's my favorite character in the game and I really wanted to see more black or brown representation in Smash.
It not just that Smash has little representation for people of color, it's that the entire video game industry has been predominantly white male focused for the last the three decades. Twintelle was one of our few opportunities to work a black woman into the game and I'm sad that it didn't happen.
MinMin was a great pick otherwise. Adds another woman to the roster and it makes me happy to see players with Chinese background excited to play as a character that they can indentify with.
Excited to play as her.
Hopeful for more opportunities for black or brown representation in Smash.
It not just that Smash has little representation for people of color, it's that the entire video game industry has been predominantly white male focused for the last the three decades. Twintelle was one of our few opportunities to work a black woman into the game and I'm sad that it didn't happen.
MinMin was a great pick otherwise. Adds another woman to the roster and it makes me happy to see players with Chinese background excited to play as a character that they can indentify with.
Excited to play as her.
Hopeful for more opportunities for black or brown representation in Smash.
Yes. Sakurai doesn't need to go, he's pretty much irreplaceable. But he (or Nintendo higher-ups) needs to become more aware of the problems derived from the lack of representation. It's way more complex of an issue than picking X over Y.
This is where I am at, pretty much.
And I would have ultimately preferred Twintelle.
See, what you can do there is give her the Wolf and Lucas treatment.
Those characters are, for the most part, unique, but they're still clearly heavily built off of other fighters, those obviously being Fox and Ness respectively. They're basically what you call a "psuedo-clone", as Smash Wiki calls it. I imagine any additional ARMS characters going forward will be cripped off of Min Min in the same way, which would be pretty neat to see.
I don't think anyone here is in disagreement that Smash is sorely in black representation (I'll be honest, the posts about how black representation of any kind is lacking was an eye opener in how I've been approaching this topic and why I've stayed out for a bit) just that downplaying, and in the worst cases explicitly whitewashing Min Min, was absolutely uncalled for.
I don't think it's fair to say "we have Japanese characters, and therefore this Chinese character's inclusion means less", but I'm white. Chances are there's nuance to this conversation that I'm lacking.
I don't think it's fair to say "we have Japanese characters, and therefore this Chinese character's inclusion means less", but I'm white. Chances are there's nuance to this conversation that I'm lacking.
It's about skin color. There can be Black Chinese people. Black Japanese people. Black people of any background. But the outcry isn't even for a Jamaican rep. or a Cameroonian rep. or anything like that. It's just for a black character.
So while a Chinese character is a great addition for the ethnic representation of a minority that wasn't there before, black people haven't even been looking for something that specific. Just for representation in terms of skin color.
Yeah that's what I was referring to wrt the game lacking any meaningful black representation. Even if Twintelle got in, she wouldn't be the totality of black representation which would be lacking in Nintendo games.
I dunno, I want to say this without at the same time diminishing the importance of seeing a Chinese character in the game.
I've been thinking...Garcia Smith for Smash.
The first 15 seconds will be Travis thinking he got in, similar to how these others trailers start, with the other assassin's fighting to the death, until finally Garcia walks around the defeated bodies, with the beaten-up Travis barely reaching for the letter, only to be picked up by Garcia.
Would it qualify as a SUDA51/Marvelous rep though, or a CAPCOM one?
The reason Spirits "deconfirmed" for the first Pass is because the characters on the first Pass were decided on before the game came out, so they weren't going to have overlap there. That's not true of the second Pass and it should have been pretty clear they weren't going to limit themselves that way, same as the overlap with trophies in Smash 4 and Smash 4 DLC.
I've never liked the term "people of color" or "colored people." It always sounded like a dated term that was supposed to stay in the past, back when black folks were still openly segregated and discriminated against. I've never been fully comfortable with it, as I have always tried to be as specific as I possibly can. Just call us what we are. I'm black, and that's all there is to it. Don't group me with anyone else.
When it comes to Smash Bros., I'll happily accept any black or brown-skinned character I can get because it shows me that my skin color is respected. Would I be satisfied? Of course not, and I'll likely never be, but it has to start somewhere, and when it starts, it should keep going.
Speaking of other opportunities for black representation, who do we have to cuss out to get this masterpiece of a character design in as a Guilty Gear rep? For fighting games the antagonists crossover just as often as the protagonists (see every Tekken guest character) and ArcSys is one of the leading Japanese devs out there that doesn't have a character in Smash yet.
I'm sold, put him in Sakurai
I'm sold, put him in Sakurai