New research may show the key on how to talk someone out of bigotry

[Kyuuji]

No I don't. I feel like you're not reading my posts. I said I don't expect anyone other than those who are already willing to show that level of patience. I said that people who don't have that level of patience would be better off not engaging at all, as engaging with aggression and hatred makes the problem worse.

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Openly rebuking bigotry where it presents itself doesn't make the problem worse. Racism, homophobia, transphobia etc. should always be called out for what it is. Lowering your head in silence when someone goes off about how the brown people are ruining the country is poor.

The idea that people should stay silent in the face of bigotry and wait for someone to come and be kind to them is flawed.

I think it's also abundantly ironic you whine about the forum and having been called names here as a means to dismiss people often having dedicated time in threads to educating others, while suggesting people should shut up or be kind to bigots being openly bigoted. To ignore all the bad shit they say and come out with to focus on the good and potential, when you can't even do the same to see the good in this community.

If you're pushing for people to accept the potential for good within bigots, the least you can do is not write off the community here because you've seen unjust anger and hyperbole in spots.

 

[Cokie Bear]

Openly rebuking bigotry where it presents itself doesn't make the problem worse. Racism, homophobia, transphobia etc. should always be called out for what it is. Lowering your head in silence when someone goes off about how the brown people are ruining the country is poor.

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Rebuking is not the same as being aggressive, that's the point. You can challenge someones beliefs without condemning them or being angry/aggressive towards them.

The idea that people should stay silent in the face of bigotry and wait for someone to come and be kind to them is flawed.

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Again, you're putting words in my mouth. Where did I say you should wait for someone to be kind to you?

I think it's also abundantly ironic you whine about the forum and having been called names here as a means to dismiss people often having dedicated time in threads to educating others, while suggesting people should shut up or be kind to bigots being openly bigoted. To ignore all the bad shit they say and come out with to focus on the good and potential, when you can't even do the same to see the good in this community.

If you're pushing for people to accept the good within bigots, the least you can do is not write off the community here because you've seen unjust anger and hyperbole in spots.

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Again, where did I say anyone needs to be kind to bigots? You're literally making things up. Unless you think not being aggressive is the same as "being kind"? I also word for word said that I wasn't writing off the community here, and that I genuinely believe most people here have largely positive beliefs. You're trying to argue against things I either didn't say, or explicitly said I wasn't doing.

 

[Kyuuji]

Cokie Bear

..because that's how it comes across.

Pushing back on the idea that this forum exhibits these attempts to educate because some people called you a nazi, while telling people to show empathy toward bigots despite the abuse they espouse toward them.

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Because in my experience the forum does not exhibit these attempts, or at least the attempts to do so are vastly outweighed by people immediately going on the aggressive and calling people nazis.

Ive seen people being called "irredeemable trash" because they bought a sandwich from Chik Fil A, as if that one decision somehow defines their entire being. There's an extreme lack of nuance on Era. It's famous for it. Just look at how many people in this thread are reading "bigotry" then immediately substituting it with nazi-ism like it's the same thing.

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Likewise many might not have experienced a bigot that's willing to discuss things and the ones that are might be outweighed by those that aren't.

Yet you expect people to put that aside to show empathy toward them, when you can't even acknowledge the aspects the forum and members do in that regard because of the bad you've witnessed or the names you've been called.

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..so again:

I think it's also abundantly ironic you whine about the forum and having been called names here as a means to dismiss people often having dedicated time in threads to educating others, while suggesting people should shut up or be empathetic/tolerant to bigots being openly bigoted. To ignore all the bad shit they say and come out with to focus on the good and potential, when you can't even do the same to see the good in this community.

If you're pushing for people to accept the potential for good within bigots, the least you can do is not write off the community here because you've seen unjust anger and hyperbole in spots.

I changed be kind to be empathetic/tolerant since you were so hyperfocused on the word.

 

[TaterTots]

Most people don't want to have a conversation with someone different than themselves. They'd prefer to stay in a bubble and talk shit about those people with like minded folks.

 

[Deleted member 2809]

Most people don't want to have a conversation with someone different than themselves. They'd prefer to stay in a bubble and talk shit about those people with like minded folks.

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Yes the real bubble is the space that tries to be progressive and protect oppressed minorities

 

[SpaceCrystal]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but if not, then I'll move it elsewhere, though this is what I have to say concerning Trump cultists, & I hope that they realize this:

Even when Trump's eventually gone from office, everything awful & terrible that they've said &/or done in real life, on the internet, or on social media in favor of Trump, the bad reputation & stigma that they've made within themselves won't easily disappear like they think that it will.

This isn't the Andrew Johnson or the Richard Nixon eras in which that there wasn't any internet or any social media around, in which it was only the media & newspapers. Hell, it isn't even the Bill Clinton era in which the internet itself was barely around. Even when they go & deny that they've supported Trump, people can easily Google their names, or go on social media such as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc. to do so & will constantly bring it up.

They have brought great infamy upon themselves in which it will haunt them for the rest of their pathetic, miserable lives. I hope it was worth it.

 

[TheGhost]

This isn't particularly groundbreaking, as many have demonstrated its effectiveness over the years.

The issue that arises is who's responsibility is it to do this? Often it seems people who are directly threatened by bigoted views are asked to carry this weight while those unaffected aren't concerned enough to try.

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It's the responsibility of white people. Minorities shouldn't have to lift a finger in terms of this. Imo

 

[Kyuuji]

Cokie Bear to ground it, is there a misconception here with your views:

If you see someone being openly bigoted you should either:

• Say/do nothing
• Be tolerant and calm toward them and try to discuss their viewpoints and where they're wrong

Would that be a fair summary?

 

[Cokie Bear]

Cokie Bear




..so again:

I think it's also abundantly ironic you whine about the forum and having been called names here as a means to dismiss people often having dedicated time in threads to educating others, while suggesting people should shut up or be empathetic/tolerant to bigots being openly bigoted. To ignore all the bad shit they say and come out with to focus on the good and potential, when you can't even do the same to see the good in this community.

If you're pushing for people to accept the potential for good within bigots, the least you can do is not write off the community here because you've seen unjust anger and hyperbole in spots.

I changed be kind to be empathetic/tolerant since you were so hyperfocused on the word.

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Take a look at how aggressive you're being now with someone who is politically aligned with you.

I was "hyperfocused" on a word that I mentioned once? I'm "writing off" a community that I've specifically said a few times now that I'm not writing off? I'm asking people to be "tolerant/empathetic" towards bigots? You're purposefully misrepresenting what I'm saying and using specific loaded language that doesn't actually reflect what I'm saying. You seem to have an idea of what point you think I'm trying to make and are arguing against that, rather than the actual contents of my posts. Me saying that I have not seen many (if any) examples of people attempting to earnestly engage bigots, and that there's an extreme lack of nuance on Era is not the same as me saying I'm writing the forum off. Me saying that aggression makes the problem worse, and that choosing not to engage is better is not the same as saying you need to be kind or tolerant to bigots.

Cokie Bear to ground it, is there a misconception here with your views:

If you see someone being openly bigoted you should either:

• Say/do nothing
• Be tolerant and calm toward them and try to discuss their viewpoints and where they're wrong

Would that be a fair summary?

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No, and if that's somehow your takeaway then you're not reading my posts.

 

[Kyuuji]

No, and if that's somehow your takeaway then you're not reading my posts.

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At this point it feels like you're not articulating them well honestly. Since this:

If you see someone being openly bigoted you should either:

• Say/do nothing
• Be tolerant and calm toward them and try to discuss their viewpoints and where they're wrong

Seemed like a pretty boilerplate summary of what you're saying, understanding that showing tolerance to a bigot is meeting their bigotry with discussion and assuming good faith on their part.

Like, what actually was your point if it wasn't people should either have a calm discussion or not engage when dealing with a bigot?

 

[Capra]

"Violence never works" I say living in my white, cishet male dominated society totally built by love and compassion

 

[Nepenthe]

I don't think anyone disputes these findings.

They dispute the insinuation that it's minorities' responsibility to do this work on top of dealing with everything else society throws their way.

Because white liberals never line up for this task in these threads. You can't even get them to talk to their Trumper relatives. They just- ironically- get combative with us and pull out Daryl Davis.

 

[onadesertedisland]

See, we shouldn't punch nazis. We should have a listen to their ideas about exterminating others and then present to them why people might not want to die. That will make then have empathy ...

 

[Orb]

Wasn't there some story almost exactly like this a few years ago that turned out to be a hoax?

 

[Top NHST Product]

It's funny that Daryl Davis was brought up in this topic when the studies aren't about reaching anti-Black racists.

 

[Deleted member 44129]

There's always been one single bit of logic that means that being prejudice to anyone makes zero sense. If you guarantee the rights of everyone in a society, then you yourself are insured against being prejudiced against. You might think you're the bee's knees now because you're a straight white male, but what if that group becomes the oppressed group? Ally with all people, and you yourself are protected too.

 

[Deleted member 2226]

I don't think anyone disputes these findings.

They dispute the insinuation that it's minorities' responsibility to do this work on top of dealing with everything else society throws their way.

Because white liberals never line up for this task in these threads. You can't even get them to talk to their Trumper relatives. They just- ironically- get combative with us and pull out Daryl Davis.

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This thread is chock full of people dismissing the findings.

 

[Top NHST Product]

Wasn't there some story almost exactly like this a few years ago that turned out to be a hoax?

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Yeah. These people think it is an interesting approach still but aren't the guy that falsified data.

Has anyone seen if they have a demographics breakdown of the people they surveyed? I haven't been able to dig into it much yet.

 

[Nepenthe]

This thread is chock full of people dismissing the findings.

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This thread is chock full of minorities not wanting to do it because it's demeaning.

 

[Wackamole]

I don't think anyone disputes these findings.

They dispute the insinuation that it's minorities' responsibility to do this work on top of dealing with everything else society throws their way.

Because white liberals never line up for this task in these threads. You can't even get them to talk to their Trumper relatives. They just- ironically- get combative with us and pull out Daryl Davis.

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i think this is important. You don't have to punch your relatives but you can certainly express your own opinion. Again and again. It becomes especially obvious when you have kids. They might have a sleepover at their grandparents and you need to be VERY clear to them in what sort of worldview you want them to grow up in. That means having a discussion with your dad when he makes those "innocent" racist jokes again.

it's not easy with those stubborn folkes as they always feel attacked. But it's essential if you want to kill these engrained habits for the next generation.

 

[Deleted member 2226]

This thread is chock full of minorities not wanting to do it because it's demeaning.

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Which is a reasonable take. But most comments are this:

See, we shouldn't punch nazis. We should have a listen to their ideas about exterminating others and then present to them why people might not want to die. That will make then have empathy ...

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[Nepenthe]

Which is a reasonable take. But most comments are this:

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They're not disputing the findings.

They're lamenting the implications of what this means for minorities.

 

[Izzard]

Yes, I, the queer-person-of-color should listen to a MAGAT vent about how I and everyone that looks like me is causing the fall of western civilization. This is some privileged shit.

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You don't have to of course, and there are those who just can't be changed, but it can work. I'm gay myself, and I've worked with some homophobic people over the years, people online, even friends I've made. In most cases when I've explained that they're wrong in a lot of assumptions they've made, they've realised their error and changed their views.

It's not something we should have to do by default, but it does often work, and I'm a believer in educating the ignorant to change bigotry can work.

 

[Deleted member 2226]

They're not disputing the findings.

They're lamenting the implications of what this means for minorities.

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That's an extremely charitable characterization, but okay.

 

[ebs]

Why do people keep bringing up nazis, it's so disingenuous.

You use this to nudge the center, no one cares about converting nazis.

 

[captive]

Keep in mind that the research reports three to six months of 'less prejudice'. Useful in the context of moving the needle during election campaigns, but more research needed to look into its long-term effectiveness.

And, just my hunch here, the 'opposing' side probably can use the same method to talk someone into bigotry too.

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The opposing side is already using YouTube algorithms and do exactly that to thousands of vulnerable kids.

 

[808s & Villainy]

So the secret is to be what white people thought MLK was like. Surely that'll work out this time 👍🏽

 

[shadowsdarknes]

It's definitely good to try to see and understand what works to get people to drop their guard and make their mind amendable to changing views.
Many people have loved ones who fall down a hole of misbeliefs which translate to racist behavior.

As racists become more organized and more militant, it's important to be able to match their tone and aggression.
In some situations, listening and talking might be more effective.
Everyone has a limit on their patience. And nobody should be trying to shame or police someone for not having the time or patience to engage with someone who's displaying bigoted viewpoints.

Beating back certain ideas is going to take a number of tactics.

 

[Doober]

Why do people keep bringing up nazis, it's so disingenuous.

You use this to nudge the center, no one cares about converting nazis.

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Because on Era the center is nazis.

 

[Nepenthe]

That's an extremely charitable characterization, but okay.

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Am I not supposed to be charitable? I thought that's what this topic was all about. =P

Regardless, do you think the extreme sarcasm is a denial of the evidence or a lamentation of the mere act of talking to bigots and the emotional toil that takes on minorities?

Because again, this is work no one wants to do, not even the people arguing for its benefits.

 

[Kyuuji]

Yeah. These people think it is an interesting approach still but aren't the guy that falsified data.

Has anyone seen if they have a demographics breakdown of the people they surveyed? I haven't been able to dig into it much yet.

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Had a quick browse on the phone and this was the selection process for sending out the initial survey, will scan for demographics.

To measure the effects of the intervention, we conducted ostensibly unrelated surveys of voters living in two regions of California and one region of Tennessee. To recruit voters to these surveys, the partner organizations first provided us with contact information for voters living in the areas they planned to canvass, acquired from the publicly available list of registered voters. We invited these voters to the baseline survey by mail. The survey was called the "UNIVERSITY-UNIVERSITY Public Opinion Study". (See more detail in "Additional Survey Details" section.)

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When coming into this thread, I straight up assumed getting thru to these peeps was a face-to-face proposition as opposed to trying thru the anonymity of the internet.

I honestly feel like it's a lost cause over the 'net. And I have a TON of patience lol

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100% - this was done by going door to door and with a face to face conversation.

 

[Mesoian]

"Hey you, Decent Human Being! To help solve the societal issues plaguing the world all you have to do is listen to, find common ground with, appease, be gracious towards, roll with the punches thrown by, and just be all around accepting of the vile hatred thrown your way by the people who despise your very existence.

Just do that and they might eventually one day maybe consider you 'alright'! "

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I believe the term is "one of the good ones" .

As for OP, nah man. I tried for years, I'm done.

 

[skillzilla81]

Getting real tired of white people telling people of color to help solve the problems they created when they can't even be bothered to challenge racist uncle jack at Thanksgiving.

 

[Bakercat]

This ted talk is a very good listen about how a former White supremacist turned his life around and now helps to change people in that group. Its a really good listen that details what the topic is about.

 

[Orayn]

Even if this does work, it seems monstrously inefficient and they'll radicalize fifty more in the time it takes to possibly deconvert just one.

 

[Ajax125]

Even though we've seen this demonstrated successfully throughout history its amazing that people still shit on the social science.

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It's because it's easy. It's easier to react emotionally than it is logically. As human beings with emotions, of course we want to enact revenge towards the people who have oppressed the people before us. The only problem is that in doing, you gain nothing other than the self righteous feeling of "well they had it coming".

Doing something like this would require super-human levels of restraint and tolerance, much of which most people couldn't handle or have the slightest interest in demonstrating. I wish that "getting revenge" was the answer....but it's not.

 

[catboy]

literally the article in the op: this works

most ppl in this thread: it won't work and i won't waste my time doing it

🤔

 

[Clefargle]

It's because it's easy. It's easier to react emotionally than it is logically. As human beings with emotions, of course we want to enact revenge towards the people who have oppressed the people before us. The only problem is that in doing, you gain nothing other than the self righteous feeling of "well they had it coming".

Doing something like this would require super-human levels of restraint and tolerance, much of which most people couldn't handle or have the slightest interest in demonstrating. I wish that "getting revenge" was the answer....but it's not.

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Calling a spade a spade is not "getting revenge".
Characterizing "call out culture" as a means of shitting on those you disagree with does a disservice to the people justifiably calling out bigotry and hatred for what it is. Calling something bigoted or hateful isn't name calling, it's a correct characterization of some hateful lie some bigot is spreading.

 

[Izzard]

Because on Era the center is nazis.

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Perfect take on this. No one expects nazis to listen, but there are bigots who can be swayed. There's been loads of threads on here about some celebrities who made some shit tweets or homophobic jokes, or whatever, years ago and have since apologised and done better after being called out or educated.

These are the people I'm assuming the OP is about.

 

[Nepenthe]

literally the article in the op: this works

most ppl in this thread: it won't work and i won't waste my time doing it

🤔

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I- as a black woman- am not going to canvass in MAGA/Thin Blue Line territory because my mental and emotional well-being is more important than saving this country.

 

[Kyuuji]

Worth noting that the majority of people canvassing on transphobia were cis or gender conforming.

 

[Ultimate Bear Cub]

Its funny to remember that the trump morons also "believe" the left side are bigots too. Which logically means that they are just as responsible for calmly making their "point" if they actually care to. If they are honest about "changing our minds" then they have to make an effort. Which they won't. This isn't a one way street.

 

[onadesertedisland]

I don't care about reforming these people. To me they firstly aren't worth it, and secondly that study only says it gives a marginal, temporary improvement in empathy. They go back to being dogshit hateful shitbirds.

 

[King Alamat]

Worth noting that the majority of people canvassing on transphobia were cis or gender conforming.

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Oh hey, it's almost like this only works if your existence isn't an affront to these people's worldview.

 

[Richietto]

Totally makes since but its not my fuckin' responsibility to do it, and neither is it for the rest of the colored folk in this country.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

This isn't particularly groundbreaking, as many have demonstrated its effectiveness over the years.

The issue that arises is who's responsibility is it to do this? Often it seems people who are directly threatened by bigoted views are asked to carry this weight while those unaffected aren't concerned enough to try.

Click to shrink...

Yep. This early post nails it. This news isn't shocking, but who gets the fun job of trying to turn these pieces of shit around?

 

[astro]

This thread shows why a dent won't be made with these bigots. Ya'll are too proud and angry to talk to people, even if they are pieces of shit.

"These people aren't worth saving" - man, with the environment some of these people grew up it's no wonder that they turned out racist.
You'd likely be racist if you grew up there. Most of you aren't magically liberal and saying that everyone should get a grip is like saying poor people should pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Sometimes you have to extend a helping hand to people even if it seems like they don't deserve it-- there might be something decent inside. Maybe not, but at least you tried.

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Maybe don't divert your empathy from the actual victims straight to the bigots?

People are angry, afraid, tired for a very good reason.

 

[RichardHawk]

The last time I tried 'talking' to a dude in a maga hat he called me a spic and said 'hop the fucking wall back to where ever the hell you're from'. Fuck these people.

 

[astro]

literally the article in the op: this works

most ppl in this thread: it won't work and i won't waste my time doing it

🤔

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Why do you think that might be?

 

[skillzilla81]

This thread shows why a dent won't be made with these bigots. Ya'll are too proud and angry to talk to people, even if they are pieces of shit.

"These people aren't worth saving" - man, with the environment some of these people grew up it's no wonder that they turned out racist.
You'd likely be racist if you grew up there. Most of you aren't magically liberal and saying that everyone should get a grip is like saying poor people should pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Sometimes you have to extend a helping hand to people even if it seems like they don't deserve it-- there might be something decent inside. Maybe not, but at least you tried.

Click to shrink...

Actually, I'm afraid, tired, and emotionally exhausted from dealing with the white supremacy and racism that impacts my every moment in this country. Fuck right off with this.