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Is The Last Jedi a good movie?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Not mah Star Wars proceeds to let out a Chewbacca cry


Results are only viewable after voting.

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
you can't. there are a lot of things that influenced Luke, and why he abandoned everything, for starters the new republic demonizing his sister for being daughter of Darth Vader, the same old problems in the NEW republic, the dark side not vanquishing from the galaxy.

This would've been such a great foundation for a B plot in TLJ. The idea that the shadow of Vader looms over Leia's New Republic is inspired. It would answer the audiences' questions about what happened to the Republic after ROTJ, give Leia something to struggle with beyond simply being a leader, and keep Vader as the glue for all nine films. The idea that the public backlashed against Luke/Leia due to their heritage would add a lot of context to why both the New Republic and the New Jedi Order failed. And Kylo fetishizing his grandfather would represent the public's fears made real. Too bad this stuff was relegated to source material
 

Waffles

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,791
You can "find yourself" in ways that aren't the privileged 20-something version of "find yourself." All we knew in TFA was that he walked away from everything to focus on introspection, and since he didn't actually go to a place he couldn't be found (seeing as there was a map leading directly to him), it's safe to assume he didn't go there just to become a milk farmer and then die. Gustaf was arguing that Luke's character in TLJ was forced onto Johnson by Abrams when that's 100% not the case.

It's definitely not 100% not the case. Where are you getting this focus on introspection from. Here is what we know about what happened to Luke in TFA:
  • The opening crawl - "Luke Skywalker has Vanished."
  • Han Solo - "Luke felt responsible... He walked away from everything."
  • Han Solo - "There're a lot of rumors. Stories. The people who knew him the best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple."
  • The map - So some old guy on a remote planet having the only copy of a part of a map that leads to a place that Luke is rumored to be, but he never actually told anyone he was going to go there, means he didn't care about be found?
  • Kylo Ren and Starkiller Base - Luke does not come to the aid of Han and Leia in their time of need, leading to Han's death and the death of billions.
  • The timing - Luke has been gone for a decade.
I fail to see how that leads to him "walking away for introspection". I don't buy someone leaving for introspection for a decade and not telling anyone exactly where he was going and where they could find him. And also, someone being as powerful as Luke not coming to their aid when he would clearly be able to sense their danger. While there are points that Rian made that weren't suggested by TFA, Luke leaving everyone to survive on their own and walking away from the conflict are 100% set up by TFA.
 

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
It's definitely not 100% the case. Where are you getting this focus on introspection from. Here is what we know about what happened to Luke in TFA:
  • The opening crawl - "Luke Skywalker has Vanished."
  • Han Solo - "Luke felt responsible... He walked away from everything."
  • Han Solo - "There're a lot of rumors. Stories. The people who knew him the best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple."
  • The map - So some old guy on a remote planet having the only copy of a part of a map that leads to a place that Luke is rumored to be, but he never actually told anyone he was going to go there, means he didn't care about be found?
  • Kylo Ren and Starkiller Base - Luke does not come to the aid of Han and Leia in their time of need, leading to Han's death and the death of billions.
  • The timing - Luke has been gone for a decade.
I fail to see how that leads to him "walking away for introspection". I don't buy someone leaving for introspection for a decade and not telling anyone exactly where he was going and where they could find him. And also, someone being as powerful as Luke not coming to their aid when he would clearly be able to sense their danger. While there are points that Rian made that weren't suggested by TFA, Luke leaving everyone to survive on their own and walking away from the conflict are 100% set up by TFA.

Yeah, there were still plenty of other ways to take Luke's disappearance. He could've been trapped, gone to the dark side, or been killed, for example. In fact I assumed "Luke's already dead" was going to be the big twist after TFA's end scene, though that isn't necessarily any better than what we got. It could've been done just as poorly.
 

Captain Goodnight

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
765
This would've been such a great foundation for a B plot in TLJ. The idea that the shadow of Vader looms over Leia's New Republic is inspired. It would answer the audiences' questions about what happened to the Republic after ROTJ, give Leia something to struggle with beyond simply being a leader, and keep Vader as the glue for all nine films. The idea that the public backlashed against Luke/Leia due to their heritage would add a lot of context to why both the New Republic and the New Jedi Order failed. And Kylo fetishizing his grandfather would represent the public's fears made real. Too bad this stuff was relegated to source material

I posted this concept awhile ago as one direction that I thought the trilogy could go (that still retains the characters introduced in TFA). It heavily emphasizes how the galaxy realistically may have reacted to a post-ROTJ world that is suddenly free of the oppressive reign of the Sith (evil Force users) for decades, and the struggle to keep Leia's heritage a secret as she attempts to rebuild a new government:

At the start of TFA, the galaxy is divided into regional sectors all cut off from each other and some vying for total control under the banner of Imperial Remnant forces and under Republic Loyalists / Republic Alliance

Imperial Remnant vs Republic Loyalists (or Republic Alliance) is the major ongoing galactic conflict ; Leia helming Republic Loyalists ; Snoke (or other) leading the Remnant.

This Imperial Remnant leader is a extremely powerful Force user, well versed in the Dark Side, but conceals his power for the most part. He channels his Force powers mainly for tactical dominance as a strategic military leader and to dominate the weak-minded (he easily mind-controls many of his subordinates and regional Governors without them knowing).

Either no New Republic was ever formed OR a New Republic had been formed but was hastily toppled within 5-10 years due to lack of cohesion and undermining influence (and outright attacks) of Imperial Remnant forces (Palpatine Empire loyalists)

Post-ROTJ, there was an extreme backlash against the Force and Force sensitives across the galaxy. The galaxy had just suffered through the failures of the Jedi and the rise of the Sith, both of which put the galaxy through hell --- all at the hands of Force users. There is a major effort to purge the galaxy of Force history of the Jedi & Sith lore

Perhaps this backlash against the Force led to the disbanding of the New Republic ---- it was discovered that one of its very leaders, Leia, was a Force sensitive, and the daughter of Darth Vader at that (though this could have been kept a secret), and how could she (or the new government that she formed) be trusted to lead the galaxy into a new peaceful era?

The Imperial Remnant latch on and use this backlash against the Force and Force sensitives such as Leia to destabilize the new government and attempt to gain dominance over the Galaxy --- however, without any major superweapons, the Galaxy's sides struggling for control are at parity with one another, leading to decades of conflict.

After years of purging strictly history, events occur, orchestrated by the Imperial Remnant leader to lead to a drive to purge the galaxy of ALL Force sensitives.

The Imperial Remnant is the driving force behind this Force purge, led by Snoke (or othe rleader), whose motive is to try to gain ultimate power with no competition --- sectors that they gain control of are subject to this purge, and many local citizens are onboard with the plan, both out of fear and out of blind hatred towards those Force users (both light side and dark side) that were responsible for the galactic upheaval of the past 50-100 years ---- people just want stability and safety, and since Force sensitives are a minority, they are perfect scapegoats. It is easy to want them all gone (think mutant purge in X-Men series). A galactic-wide witch hunt, in a way.

The galaxy has effectively entered a new Dark Age ---- in our history, that was comprised of "a period of scarity of literacy and overall decline in cultural output". This would have been the result of the extreme backlash against Force sensitives and the Force in general, coupled with the lack of any guiding benevolent government.

30 years into this purge of Force sensitives and Jedi/Sith history has left such characters as Rey/Finn etc. to barely know anything about the Force or the Jedi, despite Rey actually being a Force sensitive. This would be why, when Rey/Finn etc. meet up with Han, that Han has to tell them "yes, this is all true....I saw it with my own eyes....the Jedi, Luke Skywalker etc. are not just legends".

"The Force Awakens" could therefore reference a reawakening of the Force in the galactic consciousness and of a Force sensitive (Rey) actually becoming aware of her ability and of its actual significance and place in history.

Backstory on Kylo

Ben Solo had lived a sheltered & unstable life, since his family was in a constant state of conflict after the hasty fall of the New Republic and subsequent Force sensitive backlash/purge. He knew of his Uncle's and family's triumph over the Empire but was never told of his family's deeper history.

Who knew Darth Vader was Anakin Skywalker? Palpatine, Vader, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Luke and Leia. That's it. Four out of those six are now dead. To the rest of the galaxy, Darth Vader was Darth Vader ---- not a Skywalker. Post-ROTJ, Luke & Leia vowed to keep that knowledge secret, for fear of backlash (as they rightfully would find out later, with the subsequent Force sensitive purge).

With the ongoing purge of galactic Jedi/Sith history, Ben Solo never had any real opportunity to be aware of this. He knew of the Jedi/Sith legends, perhaps even some of the OT history, but his Grandfather being Darth Vader? No knowledge.

Ben joined Luke's academy knowing the risks and expecting his Uncle to protect him and train him well in the Jedi arts. He curiously (and alarmingly) showed significant interest in both Jedi AND Sith Lore, despite Luke's teachings.

There was no betrayal of Ben by Luke (or vice versa). The beginning of the true Force sensitive purge began with Snoke & the Imperial Remnant attacking Luke's new training academy before he could adequately prepare them and his entire academy was slaughtered. Luke escaped into hiding, going on a mission to find the original Jedi temple location (Ach-to).

Ben Solo survived the Jedi Academy slaughter strictly due to Snoke's command ; Snoke secretly knew Ben Solo's family history that he himself was unaware of. Just as a Dark Side / Sith always looks for an apprentice , Snoke saw the potential in Ben for bending to his will and using as a right-hand man in the ongoing (and never ceasing, as new Force sensitives are born every day) purge.

Ben was taken prisoner and tortured by Snoke until his body and mind were broken. It was at that point that Snoke revealed Ben's family secret --- Darth Vader was Ben's grandfather ---- his family was responsible for all of the Galaxy's oppression, and Snoke & the Imperial Remnant are really "good guys" trying to ensure that no powerful Force group can ever rise again to throw the Galaxy into the fire. Yes, there is "poetry" between this and the fall of Darth Vader, turning on the Jedi. That is OK, IMO, and actually quite fitting.

Ben cannot believe that his family would keep such critical history from him. In his broken state, he is overwhelmed with rage by this and feels betrayed by all those whom he had loved. Obsessed with gaining more knowledge about Jedi/Sith lore and acquiring more power, he sheds his family's history and family name and goes forward as Kylo Ren, the shattered remains of Ben Solo pieced back together into a monster, psychologically speaking. He takes up the position as right hand man of Snoke, leading the purge of Force Sensitives as the Imperial Remnant takes control of more and more systems in the galaxy.

Secretly, Ben keeps a handful of the Force sensitives with particular promise alive as he conducts the purge and they become The Knights of Ren. He also builds upon his interest of Jedi/Sith lore, which now, in his broken state, has turned into an obsession. He obsessively seeks out old Jedi & Sith relics, attempting to gain power & knowledge from them, extremely frustrated at how much knowledge (and in his broken mind, power as well) was kept from him during his childhood.

The snow scene with Kylo in TFA (from the original trailer) is actually him returning to Endor and digging up Darth Vader's remains, salvaging the helmet.

Han, Leia, Luke etc. all think Kylo is dead, killed in the purge. They have adequately mourned him as of the beginning of TFA and speak about him in the past tense.

Some plot elements (that I have yet to flesh out) can lead up to a scene where Kylo reveals his identity to Han just before killing him. After discovering Ach-To and adequately meditating there, Luke becomes aware of the true identity of Kylo when Kylo kills Han. (More plot elements that can be better fleshed out need to be worked on here)

Backstory on Han/Leia

Han & Leia never separated, and Han didn't just return to a life of smuggling (which makes no sense in his story arc, as the OP has pointed out).

Leia leads the Loyalists/Alliance, similar to her TFA/TLJ role.

Han meets Rey by chance on Jakku in a similar action scene but with Han and Chewie already on the Millennium Falcon when Rey and Finn are chased on Jakku. They were on Jakku for some official Loyalist business.

Rey and Finn are being chased b/c Rey discovered an ancient Jedi relic (perhaps something key to the 1st Jedi temple) that Kylo Ren was actively seeking on Jakku.

Han recognizes the artifact as something significant and bring them to Leia so that she can send Rey off to find Luke and have him use it.

Backstory on Rey

Rey has a very similar story as she has in TFA and TLJ ; no Skywalker relation ; just a Force sensitive girl abandoned on Jakku --- an outer rim world very much cut off from galactic events or historical knowledge.

Ultimately, in the 2nd film, we discover that her parents abandoned her --- yes, Kylo can reveal this to her ; however, instead of abandoning her for gambling money or something trivial (Kylo Ren says this lie to demoralize her), they actually abandoned her in order to keep her safe from the galactic-wide hunting down of Force sensitives that was occurring in the aftermath of ROTJ and the fall of the New Republic circa 5 years after Battle of Endor).

Rey's journey can mimic what she has gone through in TFA and TLJ very much --- seeking out Luke, wanting to be trained, bringing him back to the fight etc.


Backstory on Finn

A lot of rich character development available for Finn. Yes, the movie can open with Finn partaking in a battle that slaughters a village. The scene centers around the ongoing Force sensitive purge. Kylo is there and rounds up those that he senses has Force potential. Poe is doing something of little consequence there and is taken captive as an Alliance prisoner.

A lot of what shapes Finn's misgivings about being part of the Imperial Remnant comes from what he has seen during the Force sensitive purge. He has seen so many innocents put to death, many of whom weren't even Force sensitives. This will make him particularly keen to attach to Rey when he discovers that she is a Force sensitive --- he feels the need to protect her, as he spent so many years being a part of a machine set on destroying those like her.

Finn escapes with Poe as in TFA --- no real changes there.

Finn in TFA mentions being raised as a child soldier by The First Order (in this version, the Imperial Remnant) --- this should be played up more and at some point Finn will revisit a site actively training these child soldiers and be faced with his terrible past.

Need to think more about where Finn's story arc can go, but it should heavily revolve around his guilt in participating in the Force sensitive purge (for many years....more than just one battle) and in his history of being "raised [as a child soldier] to do one thing" (kill Force sensitives).

Backstory on Poe

Poe's role is definitely diminished a bit from his prominence in TFA (no opening scene) but does help Finn escape to Jakku (same scene). Poe's main role is as it is in TLJ ---- heir apparent to the Republic Alliance command and golden boy of Leia's but hot headed, quick triggered etc. and needing to learn many hard lessons about strategy, command, losses etc. TLJ Poe got it right ---- up until the end, when Leia hands Poe the keys to the command despite all of his failures. A lot more growth needs to occur with Poe, but his story is very similar to TFA and TLJ and is more of a side story to the main events.

Overall Point(s) of the Story

Force sensitives and Force history/lore in general being revived throughout the galaxy. Putting an end to the terrible purge being conducted.

Ending the cold war (and regional proxy wars) of the Imperial Remnant & Republic loyalists. Destruction of BOTH superweapons. Ultimate destruction of Snoke/leader of the Imperial Remnant

Luke's (perhaps Rey's) ultimate victory in returning Ben Solo to the light side. Ben Solo will ultimately sacrifice himself to save the Republic/Alliance , fittingly following in his Grandfather's footsteps and perhaps slightly making up for patricide.

Luke passing on the torch to Rey and a new era of Jedi

Finn making up for his terrible past and putting an end to the child-soldier training network that shaped him ; protecting an Rey etc.

Poe learning how to be a wise leader and taking up the mantle of commander from Leia (very similar to what they are doing now)


A lot of gaps to fill in, of course, and much could be pulled frmo TFA and TLJ (probably much of the TLJ could stand as-is) but a fresh take with just a few (key) poetic callbacks to the original lore (particularly with Ben Solo following in Anakin's footsteps in some ways, completely by accident). Trying to keep the story as sensible as possible, answering the questions of "where do we go from here?" after ROTJ as satisfyingly as possible without getting too crazy or too boring and keeping it historically relevant (and fresh) to human history without getting preachy.
 
Last edited:

Waffles

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,791

I could get behind a lot of that. Personally I thought The First Order should have been a small, underfunded terrorist faction of leftover Empire loyalists. And if there was any super weapon, it should've been in the hands of the Republic, that maybe TFO steals or hijacks or something. And I would've liked Ben to discover the dark side on his own, fueled by the Republic's fear of his mother, and his sympathy for a planet or city that the Republic destroyed with their super weapon. I thought that would make it quite contemporary and would be something new for Star Wars.

But hey, I still love what we've gotten so far.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
I have no emotional attachment to Star Wars. I enjoy some more than others and judge them on their own merits.

I thought it was a well-shot film with really terrible story arcs and really questionable plot holes and contrivances, to a degree I couldn't suspend my disbelief.

So, I can't say I LIKE it, but I don't hate it.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
It's definitely not 100% not the case. Where are you getting this focus on introspection from. Here is what we know about what happened to Luke in TFA:
  • The opening crawl - "Luke Skywalker has Vanished."
  • Han Solo - "Luke felt responsible... He walked away from everything."
  • Han Solo - "There're a lot of rumors. Stories. The people who knew him the best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple."
  • The map - So some old guy on a remote planet having the only copy of a part of a map that leads to a place that Luke is rumored to be, but he never actually told anyone he was going to go there, means he didn't care about be found?
  • Kylo Ren and Starkiller Base - Luke does not come to the aid of Han and Leia in their time of need, leading to Han's death and the death of billions.
  • The timing - Luke has been gone for a decade.
I fail to see how that leads to him "walking away for introspection". I don't buy someone leaving for introspection for a decade and not telling anyone exactly where he was going and where they could find him. And also, someone being as powerful as Luke not coming to their aid when he would clearly be able to sense their danger. While there are points that Rian made that weren't suggested by TFA, Luke leaving everyone to survive on their own and walking away from the conflict are 100% set up by TFA.
Honestly, I feel like most people leaned towards the "for introspection" angle because it seemed to line up more with Luke's character and where most people expected him to be post-OT. Most people didn't assume he would just abandon everyone and leave them to die.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
I disagree that anything Holdo did was actually dumb, especially in the context of being in charge of the rebel forces at the same time that there was suspicion of spies or dissenters in her ranks.
I can understand wanting to keep things close to the vest at first when it comes to plans, given what's going on in the movie. But when it reached the point where even fellow bridge crew members were participating in an open mutiny against her because people thought she was leading them to disaster, at that point she needed to realize that she was screwing up a little bit.
 

Waffles

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,791
Honestly, I feel like most people leaned towards the "for introspection" angle because it seemed to line up more with Luke's character and where most people expected him to be post-OT. Most people didn't assume he would just abandon everyone and leave them to die.

Fair enough I suppose. I just think that JJ narrowed the possibilities for Luke too much. Personally, I think the biggest mistake of TFA was showing Rey meeting Luke. It should've ended on her arrival or when they go to light speed. The potential stories we could have gotten if we didn't see that Luke was alive, captured, etc. are numerous.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
Fair enough I suppose. I just think that JJ narrowed the possibilities for Luke too much. Personally, I think the biggest mistake of TFA was showing Rey meeting Luke. It should've ended on her arrival or when they go to light speed. The potential stories we could have gotten if we didn't see that Luke was alive, captured, etc. are numerous.
I almost wish JJ narrowed the possibilities even further, to be honest. But I'll openly admit that I'm biased because I didn't like the direction Rian took Luke at all (and to be honest I didn't like what he did with almost all of the characters in the movie aside from Kylo)
 

BocoDragon

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,207
Fair enough I suppose. I just think that JJ narrowed the possibilities for Luke too much. Personally, I think the biggest mistake of TFA was showing Rey meeting Luke. It should've ended on her arrival or when they go to light speed. The potential stories we could have gotten if we didn't see that Luke was alive, captured, etc. are numerous.
I always hated that part of TFA because it's such a literal sequel tease, directly showing you the setup for the beginning of the next movie. It's lazy, and I hate that we don't even pretend that individual movies stand on their own anymore.

I guess I enjoyed that the payoff was played for laughs and shock value in TLJ... but in the film TFA proper it's a really pompous and literal sequel tease that made me cringe in 2015. I don't think we should end movies like that even if we know a sequel is coming. Have a real ending to a movie, please!
 

BetterOffEd

Member
Oct 29, 2017
857
I could get behind a lot of that. Personally I thought The First Order should have been a small, underfunded terrorist faction of leftover Empire loyalists. And if there was any super weapon, it should've been in the hands of the Republic, that maybe TFO steals or hijacks or something. And I would've liked Ben to discover the dark side on his own, fueled by the Republic's fear of his mother, and his sympathy for a planet or city that the Republic destroyed with their super weapon. I thought that would make it quite contemporary and would be something new for Star Wars.

But hey, I still love what we've gotten so far.

yes, contemporary. This is what really feels like a miss. There was so much opportunity to spin the beleaguered remnants of the Empire as propagandists and gas lighters akin to the alt-right, sowing distrust about Luke and Leia's heritage, Benghazi style, and casting Kylo as an impressionable young mind caught up by their spinning of his legacy. To be fair to Rain, most of what was going on with the internet and Trump's campaign wasn't entirely clear when he was drafting the script, but it still feels like some readily available parallels were missed (and even setup by JJ, in Kylo's case!) that could have had a lot of weight and meaning for today's audience and given the alt-right something to actually be pissed at the movie about
 

Plum

Member
May 31, 2018
17,314
It's definitely not 100% not the case. Where are you getting this focus on introspection from. Here is what we know about what happened to Luke in TFA:
  • The opening crawl - "Luke Skywalker has Vanished."
  • Han Solo - "Luke felt responsible... He walked away from everything."
  • Han Solo - "There're a lot of rumors. Stories. The people who knew him the best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple."
  • The map - So some old guy on a remote planet having the only copy of a part of a map that leads to a place that Luke is rumored to be, but he never actually told anyone he was going to go there, means he didn't care about be found?
  • Kylo Ren and Starkiller Base - Luke does not come to the aid of Han and Leia in their time of need, leading to Han's death and the death of billions.
  • The timing - Luke has been gone for a decade.
I fail to see how that leads to him "walking away for introspection". I don't buy someone leaving for introspection for a decade and not telling anyone exactly where he was going and where they could find him. And also, someone being as powerful as Luke not coming to their aid when he would clearly be able to sense their danger. While there are points that Rian made that weren't suggested by TFA, Luke leaving everyone to survive on their own and walking away from the conflict are 100% set up by TFA.

Outside of him not coming to them in their time of need (which can be explained by him simply not knowing), there's nothing there to fully conclude that "he left them all to die and couldn't give less of a shit about them anymore." He didn't tell anyone where he was going doesn't disprove anything and neither does the timespan (a decade of introspection isn't really that long of a time-span, especially considering not much happened in that timeframe). On the other hand, him going to the Jedi Temples, a place where he knows he could be found, shows that he didn't just want to go there to die and that he, at least in some form, still cared about things. The argument that Johnson's interpretation of Luke is something that Abrams forced onto him is just completely false in my eyes.
 

horkrux

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,752
I disagree that anything Holdo did was actually dumb, especially in the context of being in charge of the rebel forces at the same time that there was suspicion of spies or dissenters in her ranks.

The guy had just helped destroy the dreadnought, which would have otherwise finished them off. There is not an ounce of sense in her decision not to tell him of her plans. It's completely contrived for the sake of building up additional character arcs, making them feel like they have to find their own way to stop the rebels from being destroyed.

I'm honestly baffled by the lengths to which people will go to defend this movie lol
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
Regarding Poe/Holdo, I just don't like that storyline in any sense because the way the movie wrote it the entire arc makes everyone involved look stupid in their own ways. There's a way you can do that arc that doesn't require making Holdo look like an incompetent leader, Poe look stupid as hell, Finn not being useless, and Rose just not being weird. Plus you can make that arc work without rewriting Poe to suddenly becoming some authority defying hot shot in the 30 seconds between the end of the previous movie and the start of this one.
 

Captain Goodnight

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
765
I could get behind a lot of that. Personally I thought The First Order should have been a small, underfunded terrorist faction of leftover Empire loyalists. And if there was any super weapon, it should've been in the hands of the Republic, that maybe TFO steals or hijacks or something. And I would've liked Ben to discover the dark side on his own, fueled by the Republic's fear of his mother, and his sympathy for a planet or city that the Republic destroyed with their super weapon. I thought that would make it quite contemporary and would be something new for Star Wars.

But hey, I still love what we've gotten so far.
yes, contemporary. This is what really feels like a miss. There was so much opportunity to spin the beleaguered remnants of the Empire as propagandists and gas lighters akin to the alt-right, sowing distrust about Luke and Leia's heritage, Benghazi style, and casting Kylo as an impressionable young mind caught up by their spinning of his legacy. To be fair to Rain, most of what was going on with the internet and Trump's campaign wasn't entirely clear when he was drafting the script, but it still feels like some readily available parallels were missed (and even setup by JJ, in Kylo's case!) that could have had a lot of weight and meaning for today's audience and given the alt-right something to actually be pissed at the movie about

Agree 100% ---- sadly, the only way we could have gotten anything close to contemporary and thought provoking was if Disney didn't own the studio rights and someone besides JJ (and probably even besides Lucas himself) took to writing the script.

Disney just needs to make their money ---- they take the surest path to the gold, and usually that is not even close to the most artistic or thought-provoking.

If money isn't the only thing that matter, and if quality actually DOES matter, then I will never understand why Disney didn't hire someone else to write the story for Episode VII and give them enough time to do so.

Of all people, they picked JJ Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan to write the story. Why didn't they seek ideas & drafts from the very best writers out there in a sort of professional competition? Certainly, with proper bounds set (whatever few they may have wanted to story to stay bounded by regarding lore, characters etc.) there could have been countless amazing stories drafted by the best storytellers of our age.
 

Rover

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,423
1. It's impossible to say you don't like the film's portrayal of Luke without admitting that you would have liked something else because that's just how opinions work. To hold a negative opinion on something is to admit that there's a way you think it could have been done better, arguing that people should simply take the film's message as is and not bring any personal expectations goes against that concept.

2. Other Jedi didn't do what Luke did. Obi Wan and Yoda went away because they knew all was lost and, until Luke came of age, there was nothing they could do but protect themselves and the Skywalker twins. When Luke does come they don't just dismiss him because they failed, they immediately try and make things work; Luke doesn't do that at all. When Rey comes to meet him in her and the galaxy's time of need he literally throws that opportunity away; he's not testing Rey or protecting himself, he simply just doesn't give a shit.

I liked TLJ quite a bit and I liked Luke's turn of character, so while I disagree with you, I appreciate this post for describing your take clearly without being inflammatory about it.

Your comparison is worth making, but we gotta consider the time between these events - in the story timeline as well as in the realworld timeline of these movies getting made.

When Obi Wan and Yoda went into exile, Obi Wan at the very least understood that there was a tentative "plan" to watch over the kids and wait until they were old enough to act on their powers. Yoda presumably knew this as well. There isn't a lot of substance in the OT about this, but it seems to me like these two went into exile to bide their time. They were waiting for something, because either the political affairs of the regular people would sort themselves out, or the light would finally present its answer to the dark. It was just a matter of waiting in hiding for the right time. When it came, they acted.

But that story as presented in the OT was also relatively simple. The background details weren't invented yet. The modern trilogy had to re-examine that act of exile in the modern context of 6 movies + Extended Universe stuff to consider, as well as audience expectations.

Consider that Luke goes into exile not in the same situation as Obi Wan and Yoda did. Obi Wan and Yoda ran from a massive purge and the Empire taking over. Luke ended a war and brought peace to the galaxy. But despite that he errored and turned someone dark, too. None of the good he brought really stuck, and that must introduce a lot of self-doubt and questioning "why". I mean war is bad enough on the psyche, imagine it not fixing anything.

The thing is, I imagine that Obi Wan and Yoda had similar feelings while abandoning society at such an insane time, but that OT was made in an era when that style of movie (a rather simple fantasy story) were not exploring those kinds of emotions and character motivations.


Also how many times must it be said that people who didn't like Luke in TLJ didn't just want him to be a all-powerful Jedi badass with no negative qualities. They simply take issue with him going the complete opposite direction and becoming a weak useless Jedi loser with no positive qualities.

Despite being a 'loser', Luke is still powerful and wise, and what he's trying to accomplish is something that will upset the canon but actually solve the problem and bring real balance. A major caveat is that this really depends on how this is resolved in the third movie, but I think as a "middle movie twist" it accomplishes similar feelings of initially upsetting you but eventually expanding your understanding of the movie universe.
 

Onyar

Member
Nov 1, 2017
290
For me worst Star Wars movie of the franchise.Completely make me lose the hope on the new movies.
 

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
so far the new series is getting stomped by the prequels in terms of quality. episode 7 was just episode 4 remake and episode 8 was... uh worse than attack of the clones.. hopefully episode 9 will be as good as revenge of the sith (which i regard as a top 3 starwars movie) but i doubt it.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
so far the new series is getting stomped by the prequels in terms of quality. episode 7 was just episode 4 remake and episode 8 was... uh worse than attack of the clones.. hopefully episode 9 will be as good as revenge of the sith (which i regard as a top 3 starwars movie) but i doubt it.
Man I wouldn't go this far. I didn't care for TLJ but it's easily above all three prequels

Mild take alert - I thought Force Awakens did "A New Hope" better than A New Hope did
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,046
so far the new series is getting stomped by the prequels in terms of quality. episode 7 was just episode 4 remake and episode 8 was... uh worse than attack of the clones.. hopefully episode 9 will be as good as revenge of the sith (which i regard as a top 3 starwars movie) but i doubt it.
Man, I'm sorry, but there's no world in which TLJ is as bad or worse than Attack of the Clones.
 

shtolky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
640
so far the new series is getting stomped by the prequels in terms of quality. episode 7 was just episode 4 remake and episode 8 was... uh worse than attack of the clones.. hopefully episode 9 will be as good as revenge of the sith (which i regard as a top 3 starwars movie) but i doubt it.


I don't think there is literally one thing the prequels did better as far as film making goes. Scripts, acting, effects, cinematography, etc.

Let me ask you, did you grow up on the prequels?
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,898
Man, I'm sorry, but there's no world in which TLJ is as bad or worse than Attack of the Clones.

In a vacuum sure, but concretely, I had a better time watching Attack of the Clones than I did the Last Jedi.

Also, Clones did not kill any enthusiasm for the series and it was supported by insanely strong side content (clone wars, comics, kotor).

Last Jedi isn't helped by having shitty cash grabs for video games, mediocre cartoons and comics that focus greatly on what happened before TLJ.
 

spootime

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,434
AOTC kinda sucked but also led to the creation of a ton of great Star wars EU fiction. Lots of great books, video games, tv shows... What universe is there to create stories in post TLJ?
 

Elandyll

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,839
It's interesting to see people telling other people they are wrong in their opinion of not liking something to a certain amount and compared to something else...
 

Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,252
Most audience complaints center around the side stories of Poe, Finn, and Rose. What's important to realize about these scenes are how much they try to be like the original Star Wars movies, and how much they also change the conditions of the core conflicts to add more depth. People don't like an entire movie where the good guys are being chased? Empiredoes the same thing. The setpiece with those weird deer horses? Not as weird as Gungans or Ewoks fighting a war against trained killers.
Poe's personal arc is about transformation. His brand of heroism was fantasized in the Star Wars universe: shoot first, think later. To Poe, heroism was bravery. His arc forces him to realize victory is won with care and caution.
The losses the Resistance faces are frighteningly real and visceral, something never really seen in a Star Wars film outside of Rogue One. We see the price the Resistance soldiers pay, and how important it is when they are lost. These emotional stakes ground the fantasy. Poe himself changes from a two-dimensional pilot to a character rich with personality and agency. He turned into a leader that is capable of succeeding Carrie Fisher's Leia. Finn and Rose learn the complexities of these wars. Finn tries to escape and is roped into helping the Resistance, but when he sees the Canto Bight and realizes that the galaxy's economy relies primarily on war profiteering, he knows he can's just run away. To Rose, this fact justifies her faith in her actions and what she's doing. She consistently suffers from this. She loses her sister, gets betrayed by DJ, and almost loses Finn.

Even setting aside how problematically Luke was handled - which is the main problem with the Last Jedi if the "no, but don't you see, they are subverting expectations!" argument doesn't resonate with you, Finn and Rose are two of the more useless characters to ever populate a script and screen. Their hijinks in TLJ - to which they are generously referred, as there is little that's enjoyable about them - achieve effectively nothing in the script. In Finn's case, this is particularly disappointing by 2/3 of the way through the new trilogy, when his first appearance in the trailers led many of us to excitedly believe that this was an effort to include a meaningful POC that's impactful in the narrative... and he basically ends up being comic relief. Canto Bight is exemplary of this superfluousness, particularly in how lightly the movie treats a major narrative development - "we needed a master safe cracker of whom there is only one in the universe... oh hey this guy can do it, great"

This of course entirely sets aside absolutely absurd moments like Leia's space walk and a major plot point being running out of fuel in a frictionless system.

TLJ is a bad movie. Rian Johnson is a bad writer and, it's looking like, a subpar director. He had absolutely no business being sole screenwriter on this project, and if some of these ideas been vetted off a second or third writer, they wouldn't have passed muster.

I don't begrudge people enjoying it, you're certainly entitled to your opinion but I can't recall being so disappointed in a major entry in a major scifi series since Matrix Revolutions or Phantom Menace.

Shoutout to my friend Brogan for writing this amazing piece :D

... does this mean the OP is not actually your words, Flow?
 

Meia

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,018
With all due respect, but that's bullshit.

Batman v Superman is considered by the absolute majority a piece of trash of film. Star Wars: The Last Jedi is considered by the absolute majority an excellent film and one of the Star Wars very best. It's not about "politics I like" or "politics I don't like", it's just that there's good and justifiable reason why one is beloved and other is not.

One might not be consciously motivated by racism or sexism, but even without realizing it, spewing racist and sexism bullshit. That's precisely what the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument is, btw, sexist bullshit. No two ways around that, not when you take in context that Rey is a character in the same universe that Luke and Anakin are in.



How exactly is it "sexist bullshit" when it could be legitimate complaints about an OP character?


In Star Wars, you're either born to a family who's strong in the force, or you've trained for a ton of years to achieve it. Rey's big mystery in her introduction was who exactly was she? She has a very high skill in flying, dealing with robotics, and she just seems to inherently know the force without any training whatsoever. Basically, her status of "is she a Mary Sue or not" really boiled down to who her parents were, since we know she's never really had training. Then 8 was "Nope, your parents were nobodies". So she's just that good at basically everything. How isn't that a "Mary Sue"?
 

Captain Goodnight

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
765
This of course entirely sets aside absolutely absurd moments like Leia's space walk Flow?

Why oh why did you need to remind me of the Leia Poppins debacle? For that scene alone, Rian Johnson should lose rights to the new Star Wars trilogy that Disney hired him to author & direct. Seriously ---- he should never touch Star Wars again after that scene.

Lord & Miller get the boot by Kathleen Kennedy for bringing some improv & looseness to a Star Wars movie filming session but Rian Johnson gets 3 more Star Wars movies to write after Leia Poppins? What a world.
 
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Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,046
In a vacuum sure, but concretely, I had a better time watching Attack of the Clones than I did the Last Jedi.

Also, Clones did not kill any enthusiasm for the series and it was supported by insanely strong side content (clone wars, comics, kotor).

Last Jedi isn't helped by having shitty cash grabs for video games, mediocre cartoons and comics that focus greatly on what happened before TLJ.
I've never managed to make it through Clones without falling asleep. And sure, there has been great content developed around the idea of the movie--the movie itself is wooden George Lucas at its worst.

As for what can Star Wars be post TLJ--I don't know, it seems pretty limitless to me. I'd enjoy following DJ interacting with the war-driving mucky-mucks. I'd enjoy following some down and outs who were inspired by the myth of Luke trying to break free from their caste system. I'd enjoy someone like Finn finding a light saber and seeing what kind of mess they get into in a world where Jedi just aren't a thing. I'd enjoy seeing that "It's salt" guy be a sarcastic dick to everyone. I'd enjoy a story from Rose's parents point of view--what it's like for them knowing their girls are at war. I don't really need every movie to be an epic space battle--instead I want to see people on space planets while intergalatic things impact them, or don't.
 

pants

Shinra Employee
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,220
I love that split, seriously whoah

Personally one of my favorite entries in the series, and if you cut out everything Finn + Rose related (sorry guys, you got shafted) it approaches perfection.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
The nicest thing I can say about Attack of the Clones is that it came out I had just turned 13 and I,,, appreciated the outfit they had Portman in the last part of the movie

EDIT: god, that yoda lightsaber bit had all the emotional impact of a kung-fu movie starring cookie monster
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,326
Why oh why did you need to remind me of the Leia Poppins debacle? For that scene alone, Rian Johnson should lose rights to the new Star Wars trilogy that Disney hired him to author & direct. Seriously ---- he should never touch Star Wars again after that scene.

Lol

Seriously Leia should've been a hood ornament on a FO ship by time she wakes up, yet somehow she is still near her cruiser even though it is running at flank speed.
 

Mewzard

Member
Feb 4, 2018
3,468
In a vacuum sure, but concretely, I had a better time watching Attack of the Clones than I did the Last Jedi.

Also, Clones did not kill any enthusiasm for the series and it was supported by insanely strong side content (clone wars, comics, kotor).

Last Jedi isn't helped by having shitty cash grabs for video games, mediocre cartoons and comics that focus greatly on what happened before TLJ.

Congrats, Attack of the Clones has some fun side content...that does not make that garbage fire of a movie even come close to being a tenth as good as The Last Jedi.

Good spin-offs don't suddenly make a bad movie better. No number of awesome cartoons, comics, and games would make up for the ridiculous length they spent on Anakin and Padme's awful romance filled to the brim with some of the worst writing and most stilted acting seen in a major blockbuster. I'd rather watch Canto Bight on repeat several times in a row than ever see that again.

That movie is such a miserable experience to get through I can't even comprehend how people could have such a low view of TLJ to have that feeling. God, it'd take a "From Two of the Six Writers who made Scary Movie" movie for me to hit that kind of suffering again.
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
How exactly is it "sexist bullshit" when it could be legitimate complaints about an OP character?


In Star Wars, you're either born to a family who's strong in the force, or you've trained for a ton of years to achieve it. Rey's big mystery in her introduction was who exactly was she? She has a very high skill in flying, dealing with robotics, and she just seems to inherently know the force without any training whatsoever. Basically, her status of "is she a Mary Sue or not" really boiled down to who her parents were, since we know she's never really had training. Then 8 was "Nope, your parents were nobodies". So she's just that good at basically everything. How isn't that a "Mary Sue"?

What's family Anakin came again? :)

And yes, it is sexist and the "chosen one via family tree" cliche that worked for the OT and PT doesn't work anymore and it's completely tone deaf. The way you describe Rey makes her look more OP than she ever is depicted in the films. She's an woman that survived alone scavenging old ships in a desert planet. She is in a lot of ways more experienced than Luke or Anakin were when we first met them, and yet up until VIII she's still learning about the Force and herself. She's not a "Mary Sue" at all, while both Luke and Anakin are TOTALLY Gary Stus, and nobody even flinched before. Hence, sexist drivel.
 

Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,252
Why oh why did you need to remind me of the Leia Poppins debacle? For that scene alone, Rian Johnson should lose rights to the new Star Wars trilogy that Disney hired him to author & direct. Seriously ---- he should never touch Star Wars again after that scene.

Lord & Miller get the boot by Kathleen Kennedy for bringing some improve & looseness to a Star Wars movie filming session but Rian Johnson gets 3 more Star Wars movies to write after Leia Poppins? What a world.

It's honestly particularly offensive because it seems like it's going to be this really nicely filmed, forlorn goodbye to Leia - even if it is a bit abrupt - and it lingers long enough for you to make peace with it and kind of smile a sad smile, maybe shed a tear.

and then boom, space walk.
 

Meows

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,399
I'm still in shock that there are people who genuinely believe Attack of The Clones is better than any other Star Wars movie, let alone The Last Jedi. It is probably my least favorite franchise movie I've seen.
 

Captain Goodnight

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
765
Lol

Seriously Leia should've been a hood ornament on a FO ship by time she wakes up, yet somehow she is still near her cruiser even though it is running at flank speed.

But she's the daughter of the chosen one and an uber jedi who never displayed her skills, so of course she activates her Leia Poppins Jedi power
 

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,898
I'm still in shock that there are people who genuinely believe Attack of The Clones is better than any other Star Wars movie, let alone The Last Jedi. It is probably my least favorite franchise movie I've seen.

See I have issues saying AoTC is better, yet I have none saying I liked it better and had a better time with it.

Does that help ? Can't exactly explain it but it is what it is.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,046
Leia pulling herself back to the ship will never not be awesome. Every time I rewatch the movie, I expect to suddenly hate it because how many of you all--even TLJ defenders--dislike that scene.

Every time it works for me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Meia

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,018
What's family Anakin came again? :)

And yes, it is sexist and the "chosen one via family tree" cliche that worked for the OT and PT doesn't work anymore and it's completely tone deaf. The way you describe Rey makes her look more OP than she ever is depicted in the films. She's an woman that survived alone scavenging old ships in a desert planet. She is in a lot of ways more experienced than Luke or Anakin were when we first met them, and yet up until VIII she's still learning about the Force and herself. She's not a "Mary Sue" at all, while both Luke and Anakin are TOTALLY Gary Stus, and nobody even flinched before. Hence, sexist drivel.


Oh Anakin is a bit ridiculous, but yet the entire plot practically of the prequel trilogy is about why. Luke doesn't start off after learning about the Force using persuasion to get out of bad situations or grabbing something from far away with it, they at least try to do some training with him before he does a lot of Force abilities. Rey hears about the Force being real, and she's able to use it without any training, even having visions. She's strong in it, very in fact, but there's seemingly no reason for it? Oh, and she can pilot the Falcon as good as any pilots of it before her can, and even knows what's wrong with it and fixes it before Han can. These are a *lot* of things for a scrapper to know of, but of course anyone who thinks it's silly is sexist because Rey is female. Right. :p



Again, people who have a different opinion about a movie or character aren't necessarily racist, sexist, or whatever negative label you want to throw at them for having a different opinion.
 

Mewzard

Member
Feb 4, 2018
3,468
See I have issues saying AoTC is better, yet I have none saying I liked it better and had a better time with it.

Does that help ? Can't exactly explain it but it is what it is.

I 100% disagree, but fair enough, that's your experience...but yeah, that hits some emotional stuff given how much some people really despise AoTC.
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
Oh Anakin is a bit ridiculous, but yet the entire plot practically of the prequel trilogy is about why. Luke doesn't start off after learning about the Force using persuasion to get out of bad situations or grabbing something from far away with it, they at least try to do some training with him before he does a lot of Force abilities. Rey hears about the Force being real, and she's able to use it without any training, even having visions. She's strong in it, very in fact, but there's seemingly no reason for it? Oh, and she can pilot the Falcon as good as any pilots of it before her can, and even knows what's wrong with it and fixes it before Han can. These are a *lot* of things for a scrapper to know of, but of course anyone who thinks it's silly is sexist because Rey is female. Right. :p



Again, people who have a different opinion about a movie or character aren't necessarily racist, sexist, or whatever negative label you want to throw at them for having a different opinion.

I'm not saying that you can't dislike The Last Jedy OR Rey. All I'm saying is that the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument is ABSOLUTELY sexist, dog whistling for alt-right types and most of all, wrong. Factually wrong. Not up for debate wrong. And I stand by that. You can find flaws with the film and the character without resort to "but she's too OP" and say that Luke and Anakin weren't at same time. Rey doesn't use the force in the first film more than Luke, neither more efficiently, let alone Anakin. Those who insist on that point, consciously or not, in the context of Star Wars and lore are being sexist. And I have no qualms on saying that. You are free to dislike it, but at least dislike Luke and Anakin so you are you know, consistent.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,046
I seem to remember something about Anakin being a good podracer because he could use the force, and he was like six?
 

Meia

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,018
I'm not saying that you can't dislike The Last Jedy OR Rey. All I'm saying is that the "Rey is a Mary Sue" argument is ABSOLUTELY sexist, dog whistling for alt-right types and most of all, wrong. Factually wrong. Not up for debate wrong. And I stand by that. You can find flaws with the film and the character without resort to "but she's too OP" and say that Luke and Anakin weren't at same time. Rey doesn't use the force in the first film more than Luke, neither more efficiently, let alone Anakin. Those who insist on that point, consciously or not, in the context of Star Wars and lore are being sexist. And I have no qualms on saying that. You are free to dislike it, but at least dislike Luke and Anakin so you are you know, consistent.


...


Luke uses the Force in the first film, after at least being introduced to it by a master in Obi Wan, to bat out some blasts while blindfolded, and then to know when exactly to fire to blow up the deathstar(a major feat, to be sure).

Rey uses the Force to persuade a trooper to free her from confinement, and call a Lightsaber to her that was pretty far away. She then uses said Lightsaber to at least hold her own against someone who had been trained by Luke. While he was injured, Finn, who at least had military training with weapons, was taken down before her.


How can you say she doesn't show more abilities with it than Luke did in the first movie? That itself is factually wrong.
 

ZattMurdock

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,333
Earth 616
...


Luke uses the Force in the first film, after at least being introduced to it by a master in Obi Wan, to bat out some blasts while blindfolded, and then to know when exactly to fire to blow up the deathstar(a major feat, to be sure).

...and then Luke proceeds to explode a death star with his eyes close because an old Jedi master made him "bat out some blasts while blindfolded". Goofy, pls. HOW anything Rey has ever done in BOTH films, let alone just TFA compares with that feat Luke pulled it off in the first film? I mean, c'mon dude, you can see the fallacy in your argument here, right?