Why the hell is throwing rocks at invaders who shouldn't be there some kind of justification for IDF shooting him to death?
Why the hell is throwing rocks at invaders who shouldn't be there some kind of justification for IDF shooting him to death?
Killing Israeli soldiers is a perfectly valid recourse of Palestinians. They are under a colonialist occupation that enforces an Apartheid, and they can fight that occupation with arms. When the Napoleonic armies occupied my country, people would ambush them, kill them, and hang them from trees or throw them into caves. Similar arguments were made for similar measures of collective punishment, but the people pushed on. If you don't want your soldiers to die, don't use them to enforce a brutal apartheid. It's really not that hard.I don't really now what to think about the case. Standing up to soldiers at her age is definitely brave and I can't imagine what growing up in essentially an apartheid scenario feels like.
On the other hand, this was a message she said on video after the scuffle with the soldier:
"I hope that everyone will take part in the demonstrations as this is the only means to achieve the result. Our strength is in our stones, and I hope that the world will unite to liberate Palestine, because [Donald] Trump made his declaration and [the Americans] need to take responsibility for any response that comes from us. Whether it is stabbings or martyrdom operations or throwing stones, everyone must do his part and we must unite in order for our message to be heard that we want to liberate Palestine."
https://forward.com/opinion/391417/why-is-no-one-talking-about-ahed-tamimis-call-for-stabbings/
There have been waves of deadly knife attacks on Israeli civilians in the last years, and it sounds like she's advocating for those and suicide attacks. And you can't say she doesn't know what she's talking about, when her aunt Ahlam Tamimi was actually involved in a suicide attack in the 90s that killed 15 people (and hasn't shown any remorse for it)
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-the-reality-behind-the-tamimi-family-s-resistance-1.5630465
no you'd get a medal.Too bad she isn't Israeli, then you wouldn't even get 8 months is for killing an unarmed, injured civilian Palestinian.
no, it's the only one in the middle east that has successfully convinced the others it's a democracy. you're not a democracy when you're an apartheid state, you occupy other people's lands, give them no rights, etc. i mean sure, for the average israeli living there i'm sure it's lovely, but it can't be considered a democracy when not everyone has equal rights.But what can you do? It is the only democracy in the Middle East.
no, it's the only one in the middle east that has successfully convinced the others it's a democracy. you're not a democracy when you're an apartheid state, you occupy other people's lands, give them no rights, etc. i mean sure, for the average israeli living there i'm sure it's lovely, but it can't be considered a democracy when not everyone has equal rights.
Eight months for attacking a soldier is a pretty lenient sentence.
these posts are embarrassing and disgustingI don't really now what to think about the case. Standing up to soldiers at her age is definitely brave and I can't imagine what growing up in essentially an apartheid scenario feels like.
On the other hand, this was a message she said on video after the scuffle with the soldier:
"I hope that everyone will take part in the demonstrations as this is the only means to achieve the result. Our strength is in our stones, and I hope that the world will unite to liberate Palestine, because [Donald] Trump made his declaration and [the Americans] need to take responsibility for any response that comes from us. Whether it is stabbings or martyrdom operations or throwing stones, everyone must do his part and we must unite in order for our message to be heard that we want to liberate Palestine."
https://forward.com/opinion/391417/why-is-no-one-talking-about-ahed-tamimis-call-for-stabbings/
There have been waves of deadly knife attacks on Israeli civilians in the last years, and it sounds like she's advocating for those and suicide attacks. And you can't say she doesn't know what she's talking about, when her aunt Ahlam Tamimi was actually involved in a suicide attack in the 90s that killed 15 people (and hasn't shown any remorse for it)
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-the-reality-behind-the-tamimi-family-s-resistance-1.5630465
I don't really now what to think about the case. Standing up to soldiers at her age is definitely brave and I can't imagine what growing up in essentially an apartheid scenario feels like.
On the other hand, this was a message she said on video after the scuffle with the soldier:
A few things, she was not a child, she was a teenager, 16 years old. She also didn't just slap the soldier, she punched, kicked and slapped him multiple times. It's pretty easy to find the video. That said, it's still pretty fucked that they jailed her considering she barely made him flinch. I just don't think there is a need to exaggerate some of these things.
no one is exaggerating, you're trying to downplay how fucked up this arrest was.I just don't think there is a need to exaggerate some of these things.
I honestly don't get your post? Should I expect you to make "well actually" post every time there's a thread about a victim? Particularly an "actually" that points out completely insignificant details?
Killing Israeli soldiers is a perfectly valid recourse of Palestinians. They are under a colonialist occupation that enforces an Apartheid, and they can fight that occupation with arms. When the Napoleonic armies occupied my country, people would ambush them, kill them, and hang them from trees or throw them into caves. Similar arguments were made for similar measures of collective punishment, but the people pushed on. If you don't want your soldiers to die, don't use them to enforce a brutal apartheid. It's really not that hard.
Oh no, why won't anyone think of the soldiers occupying the Palestinian territories? If only people in the global south treated the French and British empires with respect, they'd still be colonies today!!!!
Your second point is pure conjecture so I won't even entertain it.
What should they do instead? Wait for international help? The UN? They're seriously fucked and the world is ignoring them.
You came into a thread about her being released and did the "she's no angel" thing.
i don't need to put much thought replying to someone painting a "b-but both sides" picture
Targeting soldiers of an occcupying force is fine, I agree with you. They act as enforcers of the system. But I wasn't talking about that. A large number of civilians have been killed and explicitly targeted in the Intifadas and I don't think those attacks are excusable.
Again, I wasnt talking about soldiers
I don't know. I just don't think violence is the answer, because it leads to the circle of counterviolence we've been seeing for decades. Israel justifying the occupation by pointing to terrorist attacks, Palestininas justifying attacks with the occupation, on and on
What a thoughtful response
You could actually read my post. I said I think what she did was brave.
I'm just trying to read up on the story, because I realized that I only know the photo of her, while the protest in their village has been going on for years. and it just isn't easy to find an unbiased account.
LIke this is an article by a Palestinian journalist who knows her family and paints them in a very positive light. https://www.newsweek.co.uk/i-watche...know-why-she-attacked-israeli-soldiers-534951
Then you have the articles in Israeli media... some are really disgusting hit pieces on the family ( like this... https://www.algemeiner.com/2017/12/28/the-deceptive-campaign-for-ahed-tamimi/). A lot of conjecture to paint them as some terrorist clan, that's why I didn't link it in my first post... but the included Facebook posts seem to be real.
And as Ahed's mother is the one who confronted the soldiers with her and posts the videos of her daughter online, I do think that it taints their protest if she sympathises with terrorists that target civilians
That second article you linked is pure propaganda, are you serious?
but you brought it up to balance the other article you linked to, otherwise why even link it?
I don't know. I just don't think violence is the answer, because it leads to the circle of counterviolence we've been seeing for decades. Israel justifying the occupation by pointing to terrorist attacks, Palestininas justifying attacks with the occupation, on and on
I'm just trying to read up on the story, because I realized that I only know the photo of her, while the protest in their village has been going on for years. and it just isn't easy to find an unbiased account.
LIke this is an article by a Palestinian journalist who knows her family and paints them in a very positive light. https://www.newsweek.co.uk/i-watche...know-why-she-attacked-israeli-soldiers-534951
Then you have the articles in Israeli media... some are really disgusting hit pieces on the family ( like this... https://www.algemeiner.com/2017/12/28/the-deceptive-campaign-for-ahed-tamimi/). A lot of conjecture to paint them as some terrorist clan, that's why I didn't link it in my first post... but the included Facebook posts seem to be real.
And as Ahed's mother is the one who confronted the soldiers with her and posts the videos of her daughter online, I do think that it taints their protest if she sympathises with terrorists that target civilians
Israel doesn't justify the occupation because of violence. They simply don't recognise the rights of Palestinian people. If there were other measures available I'm sure they'd go for it, but there aren't. Fighting the occupying force is their only method because the UN is neutered by the US. Gaza is an open air prison. There's barely any clean water. Snipers regularly shoot children.
You say you want an unbiased source, then read international news. It's kinda telling the sources you have been reading when you call them terrorists. Were the French resistance terrorists?
Israel doesn't justify the occupation because of violence. They simply don't recognise the rights of Palestinian people. If there were other measures available I'm sure they'd go for it, but there aren't. Fighting the occupying force is their only method because the UN is neutered by the US. Gaza is an open air prison. There's barely any clean water. Snipers regularly shoot children.
You say you want an unbiased source, then read international news. It's kinda telling the sources you have been reading when you call them terrorists. Were the French resistance terrorists?
She is a child under every international law, including every single UN mandate/declaration. Being a child and being teenager is not mutually exclusive. And a child punching or kicking an armored soldier has exactly zero impact on the story.
I honestly don't get your post? Should I expect you to make "well actually" post every time there's a thread about a victim? Particularly an "actually" that points out completely insignificant details?
no one is exaggerating, you're trying to downplay how fucked up this arrest was.
Of course the résistance weren't terrorists. They were fighting an occupying regime. Oppression should always be resisted, and the Palestinians should be able to do it. When I said terrorists I exclusively meant extremists like Hamas and suicide attackers targeting civilians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#2016_(1_bombing)
This Hamas excuse doesn't hold any credibility when Israel steals more land after each war (hell, they do so without war). Every couple of months they take over more land and build a settlement over it. The fact is if Israel wanted peace then Hamas would cease to exist but the Israeli government doesn't give a damn about peace considering they are gaining from the situation.Of course Israel does that. Not the initial occupation, but the latest wars on Gaza or tightening the checkpoint system and building border walls, it's always justified as a response to violence like the rocket attacks by Hamas or the knife Intifada
I know the situation in Gaza is terrible, as it is in the West Bank in a different way
The thing Ahed did is resistance so why were you comparing her to terrorists? Resistance Includes violence by default so don't give me that "meet them in the middle and try creating peace" shit because it is bullshit. Especially in this case.Of course I read international news (I'm not Israeli if you think that). Just in most cases reading national news of a country can give you more information, that's why I tried to look into Israeli media, with probably not the best results
Of course the résistance weren't terrorists. They were fighting an occupying regime. Oppression should always be resisted, and the Palestinians should be able to do it. When I said terrorists I exclusively meant extremists like Hamas and suicide attackers targeting civilians
yeah that is a clear case of someone not knowing much about a situation but assuming there's blame on both sides and trying to reach a neutral position.I think you should go and read more about the situation before attempting to form an opinion because it is clear you don't know much about it.
It is crazy how common that line of thinking is. I also doubt that will ever change sadly.yeah that is a clear case of someone not knowing much about a situation but assuming there's blame on both sides and trying to reach a neutral position.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#2016_(1_bombing)
last one was in 2016, no one died (hamas didn't claim the attack)
last one that killed anyone was 10 years ago in 2008. 1 israeli died.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Gaza_border_protests
just this year israelis killed 136 (it's more now, there's been several more murders since the gaza protest) and injured 15,000.
the people claiming both sides are violent are so disingenuous it's fucking infuriating. their racism is showing.
here's the thing, the only reason hamas is considered a terrorist group and IDF is a legitimate military force is because the people responsible for putting groups on that terrorist list are america (israel's biggest supporter) and their allies. to the people of gaza, whose family members are dropping like flies hamas isn't the terrorist group, the state of israel is the terrorist state. if the shoe was on the other foot and hamas had the power and america's support, IDF would be the terrorist group.
people being so quick to jump and call hamas and palestinian resistance terrorism, just know that you've been brainwashed to believe the people being oppressed deserve it and you're trying to justify it for yourself, no one looking at the number of innocent people dying on both sides (well, one side) would ever dare call the palestinian resistance terrorism.
as usual receipts will be ignored, until the same old tired and baseless arguments can be brought up in another thread next week.Thanks for bringing the receipts. Let's so how they'll respond now!
as usual receipts will be ignored, until the same old tired and baseless arguments can be brought up in another thread next week.
This Hamas excuse doesn't hold any credibility when Israel steals more land after each war (hell, they do so without war). Every couple of months they take over more land and build a settlement over it. The fact is if Israel wanted peace then Hamas would cease to exist but the Israeli government doesn't give a damn about peace considering they are gaining from the situation.
The thing Ahed did is resistance so why were you comparing her to terrorists? Resistance Includes violence by default so don't give me that "meet them in the middle and try creating peace" shit because it is bullshit. Especially in this case.
I think you should go and read more about the situation before attempting to form an opinion because it is clear you don't know much about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks#2016_(1_bombing)
last one was in 2016, no one died (hamas didn't claim the attack)
last one that killed anyone was 10 years ago in 2008. 1 israeli died.
here's the thing, the only reason hamas is considered a terrorist group and IDF is a legitimate military force is because the people responsible for putting groups on that terrorist list are america (israel's biggest supporter) and their allies. to the people of gaza, whose family members are dropping like flies hamas isn't the terrorist group, the state of israel is the terrorist state. if the shoe was on the other foot and hamas had the power and america's support, IDF would be the terrorist group.
people being so quick to jump and call hamas and palestinian resistance terrorism, just know that you've been brainwashed to believe the people being oppressed deserve it and you're trying to justify it for yourself, no one looking at the number of innocent people dying on both sides (well, one side) would ever dare call the palestinian resistance terrorism.
You are deluding yourself, Hamas are still religious extremists. If they don't want to be called terrorists, they shouldn't have attacked civilians
no, you are. you are under the impression that the side with more power and influence has to be more "in the right".You are deluding yourself, Hamas are still religious extremists. If they don't want to be called terrorists, they shouldn't have attacked civilians
nothing, if you're in power, it gives you the right to label the side you're against terrorists and justify your own similar (or in case of israel, way worse) actions in the name of defending yourself from terrorism.This is my issue with the definition of terrorism. Military powers around the world murder civilians all the time, what's the difference?
no, you are. you are under the impression that the side with more power and influence has to be more "in the right".
answer this, considering how many civilian lives are lost at the hands of IDF and the state of israel, do you consider israel a terrorist group and israel a terrorist state?
how is you being german in anyway related to the discussion? you shouldn't let your country's history have any impact on how you feel about this conflict. at this point this conflict has nothing to do with germany. if the "guarantee of israel's existence as a state" means the german people have to not blame israel for the wrong things they do because their ancestors had a part in what led to creation of the state, that makes very little sense to me.I wouldn't call it a terrorist state (maybe that's the German inside me speaking, for obvious historical reasons the guarantee of Israel's existence as a state has been one of the foundations of foreign politics here.) But the occupation, the checkpoint systems, the settlements tearing into the West Bank, the wars on Gaza killing thousands, the recent nationalist laws discriminating against the Arab population are obviously terrible. Still, it's a country with 8 million inhabitants and at this point generations have grown up there and didn't choose their place of birth, so I'm no comfortable calling it a terrorist state as a whole
Anyway, I never wanted to make this thread about me, so I will probably leave this discussion for now.
I'm a history student (this is not an attempt to claim authority on the subject, I've barely touched the history of Palestine and Israel at university). And studying history tends to show you that the longer a conflict persists, the more likely each side will get their hands dirty and commit atrocities, no matter how clearly the initial blame may lie on one side. I don't know, maybe I've become too cynical and jaded
I wouldn't call it a terrorist state (maybe that's the German inside me speaking, for obvious historical reasons the guarantee of Israel's existence as a state has been one of the foundations of foreign politics here.) But the occupation, the checkpoint systems, the settlements tearing into the West Bank, the wars on Gaza killing thousands, the recent nationalist laws discriminating against the Arab population are obviously terrible. Still, it's a country with 8 million inhabitants and at this point generations have grown up there and didn't choose their place of birth, so I'm no comfortable calling it a terrorist state as a whole
Anyway, I never wanted to make this thread about me, so I will probably leave this discussion for now.
I'm a history student (this is not an attempt to claim authority on the subject, I've barely touched the history of Palestine and Israel at university). And studying history tends to show you that the longer a conflict persists, the more likely each side will get their hands dirty and commit atrocities, no matter how clearly the initial blame may lie on one side. I don't know, maybe I've become too cynical and jaded