Why wouldn't they add these? I thought that is what most users here wanted in a "definitive edition".
Why wouldn't they add these? I thought that is what most users here wanted in a "definitive edition".
Atlus and other companies don't care about what people here want.Why wouldn't they add these? I thought that is what most users here wanted in a "definitive edition".
They kept the homophobic scenes and added even more questionable stuff in regards to one of the rape victims from the first arc.Wait, so Royal does not add FeMC or gay relationship options?!?
Idk why people thought that Atlus of all companies would even entertain the idea of adding gay relationships to this game when it's very clear how they view the LGBT community. The writing was on the wall after Catherine Full Body imo.
I agree. I can't remember all of the scenes in P5 (it's been a while since I've played it) but based on the scene which was linked earlier in the thread, I don't see how it's homophobic. As he says, it's just Ryuji rejecting two men who are engaging with him.It's not even homophobic, he just rejects those two men. Again, a bad tasteless joke very early 00's anime but I don't think it's pushing any agendas
They chase Ryuji around as he runs away screaming.I agree. I can't remember all of the scenes in P5 (it's been a while since I've played it) but based on the scene which was linked earlier in the thread, I don't see how it's homophobic.
though on one hand you can't pretend that people like that don't exist
What looks '' effeminate '' in the west and be considered '' normal/masculine '' somewhere else. How men are allowed to act or how they can look without setting off any kind of '' weirdo/gay alert '' varies from culture to culture. And even if Japanese men have more breathing room in how they are allowed to dress, that's only one part of gender expression. They can still be pressured to ACT and BEHAVE in a masculine way. If you look like a pretty boy who takes care of himself, other forms of '' feminine '' expression if you are a man, are prohibited. And even if there's a trend of men being able to look a bit more '' effeminate '', that doesn't mean it's not criticized or looked down upon by others (probably mostly men).As someone who has - at best - surface level understanding of Japanese culture, I can't wrap my head around the seemingly rampant homophobia that gets called out again and again. To me, what would be considered "effeminate" in the west is the norm for the cis male ideal in Japanese teen/youth culture. I would almost go as far to say that an andronygous look is seemingly highly desired by the younger male populace in Japan.
So, all of this is relatively close to what your average joe (at least in the west) would relate to your stereotypical gay man, which is close minded but somewhat understandable all things considered. What I don't understand is, with this relatively progressive "feminine" male ideal, why is Japan struggling with all this homophobia?
TL;DR: The mainstream male stereotype in Japanese culture seems more aligned with the stereotypical gay guy, which in my mind should mean less knee-jerk homophobia.
My guess is that you've framed this in the totally wrong way. For example, at least if you look around the '70s and '80s there are still a ton of Japanese works which, while not specifically homophobic, explicitly push the idea of "if you're a man you have to ask like a man". Its just that it tends to be moreso along the lines of "if you're a man you have to fight and be unhappy and it totally sucks but you have to do it." There are also a lots of scenes like "You're a man, right? So you have to do it".As someone who has - at best - surface level understanding of Japanese culture, I can't wrap my head around the seemingly rampant homophobia that gets called out again and again. To me, what would be considered "effeminate" in the west is the norm for the cis male ideal in Japanese teen/youth culture. I would almost go as far to say that an andronygous look is seemingly highly desired by the younger male populace in Japan.
So, all of this is relatively close to what your average joe (at least in the west) would relate to your stereotypical gay man, which is close minded but somewhat understandable all things considered. What I don't understand is, with this relatively progressive "feminine" male ideal, why is Japan struggling with all this homophobia?
TL;DR: The mainstream male stereotype in Japanese culture seems more aligned with the stereotypical gay guy, which in my mind should mean less knee-jerk homophobia.
I mean considering that this is a sexualised version of someone literally living inside the abusers head, doesn't it just thematically make sense for the game to do this?
Kamoshida physically abuses Shiho constantly and enjoys it, so of course the cognitive version of her - the way he personally views her and wants her to be - would be sexualised and weak to physical attacks.
I'm not seeing the outrage here.
Atlus, the Chick-fil-A of game developers.
"B-b-but myhomophobic gameoverpriced chicken dunked in pickle brine is delicious! Sorry, gays!"
Disgusting, and people WILL hand-wave it away.
I vaguely recall that it was later officially stated thati keep reading that they are awful at portraying gay people but i mean......Do you guys even remember persona 4?
i dont want to write everything myself so im gonna copy everything from wiki.
"I still don't really get what bein' "strong" means, but I'm gonna start by not lying to myself. No more being scared of everyone, hiding my hobbies, staying away from people... Anytime, anyplace, I'm gonna bust right through as my own self! That's the way to deal with that "other me" in the TV world."
this is said by kanji.
and the boss of the palace ofcourse:
" After being denied, Shadow Kanji transforms into is a mostly nude version of himself surrounded in a bed of roses while holding two Mars symbols. It represents his second thoughts regarding his true sexuality (the possibility of being gay) and being unsure of the opposite sex, as the sensitive side under his rough exterior is often unappreciated and even ridiculed by girls and being thought of as an unmanly degenerate as a result. His Shadow is also accompanied by two other Shadows, one named 'Nice Guy' and the other named 'Tough Guy;' possibly referring to the common homosexual stereotypes of a feminine man , and the other a masculine man. "
The whole point of the dungeon was for him to believe in himself and accept who he really is. You literally fight the stereotypes.
Also there are predatory and feminine gay people (what was that youtubers name again) , I know its a wrong stereotype but again i dont really feel like they had any agendas behind this particular scene. it was a joke that some liked and many disliked.
Japanese culture usually over exaggerates stuff to the point that people who are not familiar with the culture can get offended by it. Its just their thing.
Kanji is a badly written straight character. They accidentally made him appear gay (well, bi) when the intent was that he was just kind of feminine in some aspects.i keep reading that they are awful at portraying gay people but i mean......Do you guys even remember persona 4?
i dont want to write everything myself so im gonna copy everything from wiki.
"I still don't really get what bein' "strong" means, but I'm gonna start by not lying to myself. No more being scared of everyone, hiding my hobbies, staying away from people... Anytime, anyplace, I'm gonna bust right through as my own self! That's the way to deal with that "other me" in the TV world."
this is said by kanji.
and the boss of the palace ofcourse:
" After being denied, Shadow Kanji transforms into is a mostly nude version of himself surrounded in a bed of roses while holding two Mars symbols. It represents his second thoughts regarding his true sexuality (the possibility of being gay) and being unsure of the opposite sex, as the sensitive side under his rough exterior is often unappreciated and even ridiculed by girls and being thought of as an unmanly degenerate as a result. His Shadow is also accompanied by two other Shadows, one named 'Nice Guy' and the other named 'Tough Guy;' possibly referring to the common homosexual stereotypes of a feminine man , and the other a masculine man. "
The whole point of the dungeon was for him to believe in himself and accept who he really is. You literally fight the stereotypes.
Also there are predatory and feminine gay people (what was that youtubers name again) , I know its a wrong stereotype but again i dont really feel like they had any agendas behind this particular scene. it was a joke that some liked and many disliked.
Japanese culture usually over exaggerates stuff to the point that people who are not familiar with the culture can get offended by it. Its just their thing.
This would've went over better if they also made a '' it's okay to be gay '' arc for one character but that didn't happen either.Kanji is a badly written straight character. They accidentally made him appear gay (well, bi) when the intent was that he was just kind of feminine in some aspects.
His arc is queer coded to hell and back, for sure. And the game wants you to think he's gay, at least to begin with. But when he's talking about his hobbies and falls for Naoto, you're not supposed to think "ah, he's queer and fallen for a trans man", you're supposed to think "ah, Naoto was a girl the entire time, Kanji subconsciously picked up on her womanhood somehow and then started worrying about toxic masculinity in regards to his hobbies, he's straight".
The message of his arc is not "it's ok to be gay", it's "it's ok to like cute things, that doesn't make you gay, which is of course the bad thing here".
If ONLY there was a character they planned to be gay/bi...This would've went over better if they also made a '' it's okay to be gay '' arc for one character but that didn't happen either.
I see.Kanji is a badly written straight character. They accidentally made him appear gay (well, bi) when the intent was that he was just kind of feminine in some aspects.
His arc is queer coded to hell and back, for sure. And the game wants you to think he's gay, at least to begin with. But when he's talking about his hobbies and falls for Naoto, you're not supposed to think "ah, he's queer and fallen for a trans man", you're supposed to think "ah, Naoto was a girl the entire time, Kanji subconsciously picked up on her womanhood somehow and then started worrying about toxic masculinity in regards to his hobbies, he's straight".
The message of his arc is not "it's ok to be gay", it's "it's ok to like cute things, that doesn't make you gay, which is of course the bad thing here".
Kanji is a badly written straight character. They accidentally made him appear gay (well, bi) when the intent was that he was just kind of feminine in some aspects.
His arc is queer coded to hell and back, for sure. And the game wants you to think he's gay, at least to begin with. But when he's talking about his hobbies and falls for Naoto, you're not supposed to think "ah, he's queer and fallen for a trans man", you're supposed to think "ah, Naoto was a girl the entire time, Kanji subconsciously picked up on her womanhood somehow and then started worrying about toxic masculinity in regards to his hobbies, he's straight".
The message of his arc is not "it's ok to be gay", it's "it's ok to like cute things, that doesn't make you gay, which is of course the bad thing here".
Kanji is Bi, no matter how much they try to deny it.Kanji is a badly written straight character. They accidentally made him appear gay (well, bi) when the intent was that he was just kind of feminine in some aspects.
His arc is queer coded to hell and back, for sure. And the game wants you to think he's gay, at least to begin with. But when he's talking about his hobbies and falls for Naoto, you're not supposed to think "ah, he's queer and fallen for a trans man", you're supposed to think "ah, Naoto was a girl the entire time, Kanji subconsciously picked up on her womanhood somehow and then started worrying about toxic masculinity in regards to his hobbies, he's straight".
The message of his arc is not "it's ok to be gay", it's "it's ok to like cute things, that doesn't make you gay, which is of course the bad thing here".
I fully support this headcanon wise, but in terms of actual intent I would argue that any homoerotic moments with Kanji post his arc are part of a game the writers are playing called "Is it gay if Kanji does ___". Although I don't remember the specific example you mentioned.Kanji is Bi, no matter how much they try to deny it.
He has shown attraction to both men and women and not only Naoto (I think I remember a scene in P4G where he was blushing when Yosuke rided his bike along with him).
Remember, characters in video games are not real people. Every character and the world they're in are created by actual human beings in the real world. This situation didn't have to happen at all. The gay characters didn't have to act like this.Did I interpret this wrong or something? Seems like the guy(s) was coming onto him to him saying he was going to eat him up and calling him a studmuffin and he rejected him. Is it the way he rejected that is considered homophobic? The dog comment? I'd also have an issue if a man approached me like that.
Ok I didn't think of it from that perspective. That makes more sense to me. Thanks for the clarification. I also agree with you.Remember, characters in video games are not real people. Every character and the world they're in are created by actual human beings in the real world. This situation didn't have to happen at all. The gay characters didn't have to act like this.
If the only gay characters in the game are aggressively accosting straight men as a joke, it has implications for how the game is presenting gay men. It's turning gay men into a joke and a threat against straight men.
Could you specify what kind of subtext you mean? I don't think I got it myself.I have a question for people playing the game: How is Lala-chan handled in the new content?
I know at the time a lot of people liked her in the original release, but personally I thought she had some bad subtext regarding how other characters react to her. Albeit subtext that if it wasn't for EVERY OTHER GAME PERSONA TEAM HAS RELEASED POST PERSONA 2, I might have said that I was reading into.
... But anyway, does that subtext continue? Does the subtext become text? Do new plot points affect her situation at all? Or does she just exist off screen for most of the new content.
Ok so there's a scene in Makoto's confident where the MC and Makoto go to Lala-chan's bar. I forget the details, but at one point Lala-chan starts talking about when she was a little girl? Makoto's reaction to this is shock.Could you specify what kind of subtext you mean? I don't think I got it myself.
I mean if they're literally chasing him around, I still don't understand how this is homophobic? Happy to have my mind changed here but I think it's a reach to suggest that the scene in question is homophobic.They chase Ryuji around as he runs away screaming.
Both here and in another scene in the beach event.
Because it paints gay men specifically as predatory. The scene in question is easily read as '' gay people are gross '' rather than '' predators are gross. '' And gay men being painted as predatory towards unwilling straight men and even underage boys is an age old stereotype all around the world.I mean if they're literally chasing him around, I still don't understand how this is homophobic? Happy to have my mind changed here but I think it's a reach to suggest that the scene in question is homophobic.
I mean if they're literally chasing him around, I still don't understand how this is homophobic? Happy to have my mind changed here but I think it's a reach to suggest that the scene in question is homophobic.
I mean if they're literally chasing him around, I still don't understand how this is homophobic? Happy to have my mind changed here but I think it's a reach to suggest that the scene in question is homophobic.
You don't understand how portraying the ONLY two gay characters in the game as pedophiles is homophobic? You don't understand that? Really? 🤔I mean if they're literally chasing him around, I still don't understand how this is homophobic? Happy to have my mind changed here but I think it's a reach to suggest that the scene in question is homophobic.
I really don't get it either and I'm gay people are offended too easily.Can someone explain to me how it's homophobic? There seems to be a consensus here that it is... Looks like an overly zealous gay guy hits on someone who doesn't want it. He reacts negatively. What am I missing and why is it so critical that it requires censorship?
Or maybe these '' jokes '' about gay people, that have been said for tens of years, are getting fucking irritating and downright insensitive?I really don't get it either and I'm gay people are offended too easily.
Kanji is a badly written straight character. They accidentally made him appear gay (well, bi) when the intent was that he was just kind of feminine in some aspects.
His arc is queer coded to hell and back, for sure. And the game wants you to think he's gay, at least to begin with. But when he's talking about his hobbies and falls for Naoto, you're not supposed to think "ah, he's queer and fallen for a trans man", you're supposed to think "ah, Naoto was a girl the entire time, Kanji subconsciously picked up on her womanhood somehow and then started worrying about toxic masculinity in regards to his hobbies, he's straight".
The message of his arc is not "it's ok to be gay", it's "it's ok to like cute things, that doesn't make you gay, which is of course the bad thing here".
I mean if they're literally chasing him around, I still don't understand how this is homophobic? Happy to have my mind changed here but I think it's a reach to suggest that the scene in question is homophobic.
I mean, it's not the straight men who don't want sex or relationships who deserve scornful humor either. It's the toxic work culture that has killed relationshipsImagine making fun of gay men in a society where there is a crisis of straight men not acting on their supposed sexuality.
Japan: exercise some fucking introspection, please, and recognise who or what truly deserves the scornful humor.
Could you not apply this logic to any other type of individual in the game though? For example, the game's only PE teacher is portrayed as a paedophile. I just think it's silly.You don't understand how portraying the ONLY two gay characters in the game as pedophiles is homophobic? You don't understand that? Really? 🤔
I find it very hard to believe that there's actual dialogue in the game of the men in question saying how they "love to have sex with underaged boys."It's combined with the fact that they stick around in the red district and will make some comments on how they love to have sex with underaged boys. They're pedophiles.
I think that's what's so telling. I didn't see anyone else making an issue when you can have a relationship with Kawakami, or Takemi, or Ohya (in regards to the paedophillic angle that's been brought up in regards to this.)I really don't get it either and I'm gay people are offended too easily.