PlayStation 5 System Architecture Deep Dive |OT| Secret Agent Cerny

[Deleted member 23046]

I hope this is possible. It would tide me over until in-spec drives are reasonably priced.

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I really hope they do this, though it should be noted that the drives would still need to be certified, as there are certain NVMe models that literally won't fit in the bay. They could have maybe have 2 certifications? "PS5 Certified" for drives that fit but can only be used as storage, and "PS5 Certified Platinum" for drives that can actually play PS5 games.

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I doubt they'll have to certify something just for cold storage... but maybe they will for thermal reasons, depending how it's integrated. 2TB start around 230$ today, 1TB at 120$. Recycling a SATA3 SSD in a USB3 caddy should also offer decent transfert speed.

 

[BreakAtmo]

I doubt they'll have to certify something just for cold storage... but maybe they will for thermal reasons, depending how it's integrated. 2TB start around 230$ today, 1TB at 120$. Recycling a SATA3 SSD in a USB3 caddy should also offer decent transfert speed.

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No, they would need to. Cerny explained in the talk that there are some NVMe SSDs that have their own heatsinks or even fans, which mean they actually can't fit in the PS5's SSD bay. Even if they were just going to be used for cold storage, they would still need to be certified as capable of fitting in there.

 

[vivftp]

So at this point in time do we know who's manufacturing Sony's SSD? We know Seagate is doing Xbox's, I'm guessing they're probably not doing it for both companies. Are we looking at Samsung or someone else?

 

[BreakAtmo]

So at this point in time do we know who's manufacturing Sony's SSD? We know Seagate is doing Xbox's, I'm guessing they're probably not doing it for both companies. Are we looking at Samsung or someone else?

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I might be wrong but didn't HyperX retweet the PS5 presentation announcement? Maybe it's them?

 

[anexanhume]

I might be wrong but didn't HyperX retweet the PS5 presentation announcement? Maybe it's them?

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My guess is they're doing headsets or other accessories.

 

[vivftp]

I might be wrong but didn't HyperX retweet the PS5 presentation announcement? Maybe it's them?

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Yeah, I seem to recall something about that now that you mention it.

Also, just thinking out loud here. We know from DF's PS5 video that the original plan was for them to be flown out to SIE's HQ, but of course that didn't happen and instead they got their video call with Cerny. Well my question is, what exactly was the plan if they had gone? I mean, was the entire purpose of the trip to do a sit-down Q&A with Cerny? Were they supposed to be part of the shadow people while Cerny talked? Or was Sony going to actually show them things like demos and maybe even more? I'm kinda curious now... I dunno if Sony were prepared to show off the actual PS5 final design or anything to DF, but maybe the controller?

I have to imagine something meaty would've happened if Sony bothered to bring DF all the way to them. I don't believe DF has commented much about the additional content from their talk with Cerny that they mentioned in their video. Then again we just got another Xbox video today so maybe there's another video or article being worked on? Or maybe Sony is preparing a reveal in the not too distant future and they were planning to get DF prepped with a bunch of content for that reveal? Hmm, so many possibilities...

 

[disco_potato]

I might be wrong but didn't HyperX retweet the PS5 presentation announcement? Maybe it's them?

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My guess is they're doing headsets or other accessories.

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HyperX is part of Kingston group, biggest ram/SSD manufacturer out there IIRC.

 

[anexanhume]

HyperX is part of Kingston group, biggest ram/SSD manufacturer out there IIRC.

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That would be Samsung.

 

[BradGrenz]

A 1gb pcie 4.0 at 5gb/s right now cost $199. No way will a 7gb/s model cost less when they come out. That extra storage is going to cost a pretty penny.

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It doesn't matter that much how expensive they are this fall. The number of people who will require an upgrade day one is effectively zero. By 2023 when people are starting to feel cramped PS5 capable drives will be commonplace and probably pretty cheap. I'd bet you'll be able to pop in a 4TB drive for less than $200 by then.

I think Sony simply can not afford to depend on 3rd parties for making those "PS5 certified" expansion SSDs and they'll have to make and sell their own expansion drives, probably in 2021 already.

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This is silly. Go to any amazon page for a high capacity microSD card and one of the very first questions or reviews will be about Switch compatibility. The same is often true for 2.5inch drives and PS4 compatibility. SSD makers are going to create drives that work and people are going to identify them and share that info with or without Sony actually needing to certify them officially.

 

[disco_potato]

That would be Samsung.

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Kingston is #1 at something. I was pretty sure it was ram or ssd.

 

[Ploid 6.0]

It doesn't matter that much how expensive they are this fall. The number of people who will require an upgrade day one is effectively zero. By 2023 when people are starting to feel cramped PS5 capable drives will be commonplace and probably pretty cheap. I'd bet you'll be able to pop in a 4TB drive for less than $200 by then.



This is silly. Go to any amazon page for a high capacity microSD card and one of the very first questions or reviews will be about Switch compatibility. The same is often true for 2.5inch drives and PS4 compatibility. SSD makers are going to create drives that work and people are going to identify them and share that info with or without Sony actually needing to certify them officially.

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Yep, look at Nvidia "certifying" G-Sync compatible Freesync monitors. People bypassed that list and found out that all Freesync monitors worked, if they glitch or act strange it's because they also glitched and act strange with AMD GPUs as well. People won't have to wait for Sony to give it a go, tech youtubers will enjoy the content to find out which SSDs work on PS5. Then sites will have a big list that gets updated. There probably won't even be a need for a list, they may tell you what specs to look for in a Gen4+ NVMe SSD.

 

[anexanhume]

Kingston is #1 at something. I was pretty sure it was ram or ssd.

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Samsung passed Intel as the number one semiconductor manufacturer in the world. 1 of every 3 SSDs is Samsung.

Samsung’s chip business is now worth more than Intel’s

Intel processors cede dominance to Samsung memory

www.theverge.com

They also lead the DRAM market. They're a juggernaut.

DRAM manufacturer market share by quarter 2023 | Statista

In the third quarter of 2023, Samsung held a market share of 38.9 percent while SK Hynix occupied a market share of 34.3 percent.

www.statista.com

Kingston makes the DRAM modules from chips. That's probably what you're thinking of. That wouldn't be applicable to a console. Similarly, they wouldn't supply the NAND chips. They could be a partner for the M.2 drives, sure.

Kingston Technology Takes Top Spot as DRAM Module Supplier

Kingston Technology Company, Inc., a world leader in memory products and technology solutions, today announced it has been ranked the top DRAM module supplier in the world, according to the latest rankings by DRAMeXchange, a division of TrendForce. Kingston retains its number 1 position with an...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[褲蓋Calo]

I agree that both machine are close in terms of power. But point 4, i think, it's bullshit.

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I would agree with you but watch the video he makes a great case for it and it's not like it won't be impossible on PC forever. It's until the hardware catches up. The real dings he makes actually are against Nvidia

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I think that's why DirectStorage exist.

My prediction is that DirectStorage will be like Direct3D, a common API that provides applications the access to storage accelerators/coprocessors made by a variety of vendors. Applications will use DirectStorage to submit lists of commands/shader-like kernel to be executed by the accelerator, the tasks may include fine grained DMA and decompression, freeing up CPU cycles.

Maybe Microsoft have had a new initiative with storage device vendors going underway now, they just aren't ready to announce it yet.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

I don't know if this video has been posted or if this guy is reliable. But he seems like he doesn't even care about consoles and once he starts talking about both PS5 and Xbox Series from minute 8 (since the video is about AMD and not specifically about consoles) i found it fascinating. He also talks about how for a while PC gamers will see things in consoles (specially PS5) that won't be possible (more like affordable) on PC for a long time due to that PS5's SSD.
He then goes into amazing details about the PS5 architecture.

I advise you to watch this tbh, at least starting on minute 8.

 

[Deleted member 23046]

I don't know if this video has been posted or

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[Deleted member 224]

I don't know if this video has been posted or if this guy is reliable. But he seems like he doesn't even care about consoles and once he starts talking about both PS5 and Xbox Series from minute 8 (since the video is about AMD and not specifically about consoles) i found it fascinating. He also talks about how for a while PC gamers will see things in consoles (specially PS5) that won't be possible (more like affordable) on PC for a long time due to that PS5's SSD.
He then goes into amazing details about the PS5 architecture.

I advise you to watch this tbh, at least starting on minute 8.

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Yes, that video has been posted. The creator gets a ton of stuff completely wrong.

 

[Deleted member 23046]

No, they would need to. Cerny explained in the talk that there are some NVMe SSDs that have their own heatsinks or even fans, which mean they actually can't fit in the PS5's SSD bay. Even if they were just going to be used for cold storage, they would still need to be certified as capable of fitting in there.

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Yeah you are right but what I meant was that every device should work behind the norm first, certification or not - like any USB or SATA device - while something capable to be paired with the CernyDD, first doesn't exist and secondly should require more fine tuning at the OS level than "basic" drivers support for a standard like NVMe.

 

[Deleted member 63832]

Cerny

Give price

Please

 

[Md Ray]

Cerny

Give price

Please

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Probably in June/July.

 

[Calverz]

Of course he isn't. It was a real audience.

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No it wasnt.

 

[Wace]

Cerny

Give price

Please

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...sorry

 

[Pheonix]

So at this point in time do we know who's manufacturing Sony's SSD? We know Seagate is doing Xbox's, I'm guessing they're probably not doing it for both companies. Are we looking at Samsung or someone else?

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It's my understanding that no one is building the PS5 SSD per see. Sony's SSD solution is more like an SSD OEM building a consumer package but using components from different vendors.

So sony could be getting the nand flash chips from one or any number of companies, the controller from someone else (and even that seems to be a custom controller too). MS is using a 2230 SSD from Seagate, so its likely that the one that ships in the box would be a 2230 SSD just without the enclosure. The enclosure is what makes their SSD proprietary.

_____________________

On another note anexanhume , Lady Gaia , Liabe Brave , Cerny said something about time to triangle is less than 1 month on the PS5, does them using a GPU with 36CU which is similar to the CU count on the PS4pro mean that it would be easier for devs to port their already existing engines over to the new console? Furthermore, does having fewer CUs in the PS5 mean that it would be easier optimizing engines to make the most of them than say in the XSX?

 

[Kyoufu]

By 2023

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I'm gonna need an upgrade in the first 6 months. 825GB is peanuts.

Thankfully there are options, like using my SATA SSD over USB for cold storage.

 

[ppn7]

Ps4 = 18 CU
Ps4 Pro = 36 CU
ps5 = 36 CU

So Ps5 pro could easily be a 72 CU if the 80CU exist at RDNA 2 end of year right ?
Maybe in 2024...

 

[Deleted member 20297]

Ps4 = 18 CU
Ps4 Pro = 36 CU
ps5 = 36 CU

So Ps5 pro could easily be a 72 CU if the 80CU exist at RDNA 2 end of year right ?
Maybe in 2024...

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It doesn't have to be a multiple of 36 but of 18.

 

[ILikeFeet]

It doesn't have to be a multiple of 36 but of 18.

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9 CU playstation portable 3 🤔

 

[ppn7]

It doesn't have to be a multiple of 36 but of 18.

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The more CU the better , isn't ?

 

[ppn7]

Guys do you think Microsoft and Sony will be able to make a tool like DLSS 2.0 but avaible not only for first party and chosen games, but something that every devs could use day one ?

I really start to think that the war can be ended by the one who make the first step on image reconstruction.

Ok we know something about directML and forza Horizon but it's just one game, and we all know about HZD checkerboard, again only one game.
I want to see all this enhancement in all games, because for now, only nvidia convince me about AI upscaling. It should be easy to implement it through new games and the result seems massive.

 

[Vimto]

Cerny

Give price

Please

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Can you really put a price on saving america?

 

[foolishoptimist]

It doesn't have to be a multiple of 36 but of 18.

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I'm not sure I believe that. I can't help but feel that 36CUs was the only viable option for them with BC.

 

[dgrdsv]

So at this point in time do we know who's manufacturing Sony's SSD? We know Seagate is doing Xbox's, I'm guessing they're probably not doing it for both companies. Are we looking at Samsung or someone else?

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It's a custom soldered solution meaning that they'll likely buy NAND chips of needed specification from anyone who's going to sell them for the lowest price. The controller is in the SOC and is made by Sony I presume.

 

[amstradcpc]

It's a custom soldered solution meaning that they'll likely buy NAND chips of needed specification from anyone who's going to sell them for the lowest price. The controller is in the SOC and is made by Sony I presume.

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IIRC I read Sonys nand chips are Samsungs. The flash controller is not in the SSD?. In the slide it looked it was.

 

[BitterFig]

The most interesting aspect of a 72 CU PS5 Pro would be the amount of spin it'll take Cerny to introduce the console.

The only acceptable title for the presentation would be The Road to Redemption.

 

[Deleted member 20297]

The most interesting aspect of a 72 CU PS5 Pro would be the amount of spin it'll take Cerny to introduce the console.

The only acceptable title for the presentation would be The Road to Redemption.

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Yeah, good luck achieving high clock rates then.

 

[Jonnax]

IIRC I read Sonys nand chips are Samsungs. The flash controller is not in the SSD?. In the slide it looked it was.

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It's very likely that the internal SSD of the PS5 will be soldered onto the motherboard.

So if the NAND is Samsung they can have whatever they want for the controller.

Think of it that Sony are making the SSD from components.

 

[Pheonix]

Guys do you think Microsoft and Sony will be able to make a tool like DLSS 2.0 but avaible not only for first party and chosen games, but something that every devs could use day one ?

I really start to think that the war can be ended by the one who make the first step on image reconstruction.

Ok we know something about directML and forza Horizon but it's just one game, and we all know about HZD checkerboard, again only one game.
I want to see all this enhancement in all games, because for now, only nvidia convince me about AI upscaling. It should be easy to implement it through new games and the result seems massive.

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Exactly, people need to stop drinking the cool-aid...

Pixel reconstruction, VRS, DLSS... they all pretty much do the same thing. Give you the impression of running at a higher native resolution than you actually are. This is what I personally consider the industries Blacksheep, no one; Nvidia, AMD, Sony or MS wants to outright come out and say, "Hey look, its a computational waste going from1440p to native 4K. The IQ gains are not worth the computation cost. Diminishing returns is real".

So they come up with all these catchy names for you to basically run your game at lower resolution because its easier to market True 4K than to say just as good as 4K.

GOW also used Checkerboard, and I think days gone. And yes, I think these rendering methods should be embraced by all of them. every time I see the words native 4k or true 4K I can't help but feel the devs have their priorities all crossed and are pissing performance down the toilet all for a buzzword.

 

[amstradcpc]

Yeah, good luck achieving high clock rates then.

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The ps5 pro clearly would be 54 CUs at 2,23 Ghz at least.

 

[anexanhume]

From the devs react thread

On another note @anexanhume , @Lady Gaia , @Liabe Brave , Cerny said something about time to triangle is less than 1 month on the PS5, does them using a GPU with 36CU which is similar to the CU count on the PS4pro mean that it would be easier for devs to port their already existing engines over to the new console? Furthermore, does having fewer CUs in the PS5 mean that it would be easier optimizing engines to make the most of them than say in the XSX?

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It's mostly about making sure the PS4 code can run natively. That allows devs to use existing tools to get prototypes working. GPU work is already massively parallelized, so having the same number of CUs probably doesn't matter much.

 

[vivftp]

So what does everyone think Sonys plan was if they had flown the Digital Foundry folks out to their HQ? A Q&A with Cerny? Showing off some demos? Showing off the console and/or controller? Joining Cernys legion of shadow people who sit and watch him talk?

Or could it be they are planning something soon and wanted to prep DF for videos and articles to release on the same day?

 

[amstradcpc]

From the devs react thread

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I am glad global illumination will be the cheapest and most used RT effect as I think is the most shocking one.

 

[BreakAtmo]

Here's something I want to know. We all know that when boost mode gets applied to a game, there's often caps to framerate or dynamic resolution that mean it can only do so much. Will it be possible for the PS5 to recognise those caps and, if not change them or turn them off, at least set the variable clocks to only what is needed? After all, it's not like you'd need maximum clocks to, say, make The Last Guardian stick to 30fps in its 1800cb mode, or DOOM Eternal stick to 1440p. Hell, for a bunch of games, the IPC improvements could mean that you wouldn't need clock boosts at all.

 

[Deleted member 61469]

From the devs react thread

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Does this make sense if they have no devkits?

 

[dgrdsv]

IIRC I read Sonys nand chips are Samsungs. The flash controller is not in the SSD?. In the slide it looked it was.

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You're right, it's off-SoC:

Doesn't change much though. The NAND chips are likely soldered onto the PCB and can be from whoever if they meet the required specs.

 

[ppn7]

Exactly, people need to stop drinking the cool-aid...

Pixel reconstruction, VRS, DLSS... they all pretty much do the same thing. Give you the impression of running at a higher native resolution than you actually are. This is what I personally consider the industries Blacksheep, no one; Nvidia, AMD, Sony or MS wants to outright come out and say, "Hey look, its a computational waste going from1440p to native 4K. The IQ gains are not worth the computation cost. Diminishing returns is real".

So they come up with all these catchy names for you to basically run your game at lower resolution because its easier to market True 4K than to say just as good as 4K.

GOW also used Checkerboard, and I think days gone. And yes, I think these rendering methods should be embraced by all of them. every time I see the words native 4k or true 4K I can't help but feel the devs have their priorities all crossed and are pissing performance down the toilet all for a buzzword.

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The problem is that I don't know if cherckerboard is as easily as DLSS 2.0 implementation. I hope Sony is working on something equivalent. Because they said that they were able to reach the PSX in term of facilitates development.
I really don't care about native 4K when you can simulate the image quality an de even do better in some way.

If devs don't need to waste time on performance and image quality. They can use this time to impress us with new gameplay mechanics and physics !

 

[DrKeo]

I am glad global illumination will be the cheapest and most used RT effect as I think is the most shocking one.

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GI is the most expensive RT effect. AO is probably the cheapest.

 

[Jade1962]

Lol this means nothing. Let's see what the messaging brings later in the year but I suspect you'll see 55/45 in favour of PS5 in the US should they continue making their message murky.

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Are you are aware of the current difference between PS4 and X1 in the US? Sony would be very pleased with a 55/45 split in the US.

 

[vivftp]

GI is the most expensive RT effect. AO is probably the cheapest.

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This image suggests that GI is pretty low down on the totem pole of expense:

 

[Doctor Avatar]

every time I see the words native 4k or true 4K I can't help but feel the devs have their priorities all crossed and are pissing performance down the toilet all for a buzzword.

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That's exactly what they are doing. Pissing performance down the toilet.

The sooner people get over themselves and stop caring about native 4K the better for both developers and gamers. We'll have better looking and better running games, developers will be putting their effort into something that actually makes a difference.

Native 4K vs reconstructed 4K is the losses vs high bitrate MP3 argument. You will have people swear blindly there is a "huge" difference when there isn't, and what difference there is requires very specific circumstances and equipment to really appreciate. And the cost for this mostly theoretical improvement in quality is astronomical in comparison to any benefit it provides.

For 90% in their normal consuming environment people will not be able to tell the difference between 256bit MP3 and lossless. Same goes for reconstruction - 90% of people with 4K screens who are playing normally will not be able to tell the difference between reconstructed 4K and native.

I wonder how many will be decrying VRS because it also "reduces" image quality?

 

[anexanhume]

A video similar to DF's on what kind of real-world gains that CPU frequency and SMT mean for games. I was impressed to see how much Tomb Raider benefits. It talks about the consoles in a much more abstract sense, so there's no uncertainty about the claims given scant hardware details on the new consoles.

 

[Pheonix]

From the devs react thread





It's mostly about making sure the PS4 code can run natively. That allows devs to use existing tools to get prototypes working. GPU work is already massively parallelized, so having the same number of CUs probably doesn't matter much.

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Thanks. I knew about that BC thing, just started thinking there could be more to it with all this easier to optimize for 36CU talk vs the 52CU, which to me didn't quite make sense... its not like devs optimize for every individual GPU core count configuration out there when mamking their games.

However, does that mean that a game's code, even when very well parallelized wouldn't on fewer cores than on more cores? Take for instance a 36CU 10TF GPU vs a 48CU 10TF GPU with everything else being equal (CPU + RAM + bandwidth...etc).