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InfiniDragon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,337
Yeah, it's pretty easy to discern between "she is female" and referring to a woman as "a female".

The one that's rough for me to avoid is "girls" as some women don't care for the term (like calling a man "boy" which a lot of men don't like). I try to just stick to women and woman as much as I can, as a general rule even though it doesn't really roll off the tongue as well.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
When I come into a thread about a topic someone else created I expect that person to be putting forth an argument instead of just "heres an opinion, now go do research on your own to see why I'm right". Thus I asked for an elaboration.
But I mean there are plenty of other people in the thread explaining this to you. Why does it need to come from OP?

Could you answer the question I asked you?
 

PhazonBlonde

User requested ban
Banned
May 18, 2018
3,293
Somewhere deep in space
What you are stating can also be considered offensive. By telling someone else that their language is "wrong" and your way of writing is the correct way is forcing hegemonic values of the English language over theirs. Ultimately, reading requires more than just the text itself. It includes the linguistic pragmatism. There isn't a negative connotation unless the word has a history of being a negative connotation or the writer is making it so. If someone is not being malicious, then their should be no offense. Otherwise, we are going to be constantly offended by everything that we write on this forum.
tenor.gif
 

Ascenion

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,255
Mecklenburg-Strelitz
Find it hard to disagree with OP. Female is definitely being used in a derogatory fashion. I'd go so far as to say female is basically the new "bitch". At least where I live(NC) it's like Female is being substituted for bitch in instances where someone would normally say that instead.

For example at a party I went to about 2 weeks ago I heard the following:

"Females be trippin bruh"
"Them some fine ass females over there"

And during an altercation:
"Female, if you don't get the fuck up out my face I will smack the shit out of you. I won't tell you again."

I only remember this because it caused a scene and they both left the party. So yeah I agree with OP. It needs to stop, it's 100% dehumanizing and derogatory because it's only used in certain contexts and as a black guy I absolutely recognize we probably started this crap. 7/10 when I hear it it's coming from one of us.
 
OP
OP
Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,512
When I come into a thread about a topic someone else created I expect that person to be putting forth an argument instead of just "heres an opinion, now go do research on your own to see why I'm right". Thus I asked for an elaboration.

I mean, I said it's dehumanising. That's my argument. Don't use it because it dehumanises women and we don't like it.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
This reminds me of when there is a group of females and people say

"how are you guys doing".

When there is no guy in the group.

I mean, it's better to not use a gendered nouns at all, but honestly i feel like saying, what's up guys is better than saying, what's up group of women? Should just be how y'all doing? But generally speaking I think guys has sort of become gender neutral.
 

Chamaeleonx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,348
Are they capitalized mid-sentence in German? (assuming that's your native language)
Yeah they generally are. There are a few exceptions for polite pronouns which are also capitalized but otherwise you can assume that a word with a capitalized letter is a noun in sentence. You generally can make nouns out of a lot of words (Verbs and some pronouns (at least if I remember correctly)). As said below, it looks better, is good formatting and makes skimming a text easier.

German is the only language I know that does that tbh.
It makes reading so much better as you directly see what nouns are and you can skim text better. Nouns are often the topic of a sentence so you can skim over text passages much easier as you only need to look for the relevant nouns.
No clue what other languages do that, to me it seems logical and is good formatting. Also, it simply looks better. xD
 

robosllim

Banned
Dec 4, 2017
548
Whether it is malicious, a lack of English understanding, or a lack of education ultimately doesn't matter. The correct response to this thread would then be: Huh, I was mistakingly being offensive. I didn't realize. But now I know, thank you.

As a non-native English speaker this happens sometimes. But I would rather be wrong and learn, than be wrong and mad for being told so.
Eh, there's a limit. Personally, I don't think I use the word "female" very often (except in contexts like, "I don't know many female programmers," but I think OP would be fine with that) but I'd rather not self-censor every word or phrase that someone finds offensive.

I've been told not to use the word "cunt," but... well, I just know who not to say it in front of now. I learned, but I didn't change my mind. I don't personally find anything wrong with the word when used sparingly so I'm going to keep saying it regardless. On the other hand, I figured it was finally time to drop the word "retarded," which was honestly just a holdover from when I was a kid, when it was pointed out to me that that's not really acceptable anymore.

I guess what I'm getting at is, context and meaning matter, and even though I'm not a libertarian, don't tread on me, "triggered much?" type of person, I still think people can sometimes be overly sensitive and preachy. We live in sensitive times to be sure, but this doesn't really help.
 

Ravensmash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,797
Agree with the OP, it doesn't make sense grammatically either.


I don't use female at all, to the detriment of my grammar. I use "women" in all contexts. Women programmers, women lawyers, women carpenters, etc. It sounds weird to say but everyone knows what I mean and nobody will mistake me for a creep.

This just seems a bit too far for me.
 

Kaban

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,502
I sometimes use the term to describe the gender of a friend, depending on the conversation at hand i.e. a female friend or a male friend. Saying boyfriend/girlfriend/man-friend/lady-friend in reference to a platonic relationship seems to give the wrong idea to people.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
But I mean there are plenty of other people in the thread explaining this to you. Why does it need to come from OP?

Could you answer the question I asked you?
Because OP was the one to start the conversation and doing so would have allowed for organic and genuine conversation to start right off the bat rather than having to wade through pages of the topic to catch up.

Additionally considering the word feminist is a noun, yes.
 

Deleted member 18347

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,572
I don't remember an instance where "woman" and "male" were used together, but I've seen plenty of "man" and "female" in the same comment/argument. In some cases it's very clear what the intentions are.

But not every use of the term is due to malicious/cynical intent. Depends on context.
 

NameUser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,113
My nephew does this and it drives me up the f****** wall! I feel like it's a newer thing because when I was growing up no one really used it that way. We just said girls.
 

GeoGonzo

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,363
Madrid, Spain
It is cringeworthy. I more often than not give people the benefit of the doubt and assume it isn't intentional, but I bet I'd be really tired of that if I were a woman.
 

marimo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
612
I sometimes use the term as a noun to describe the gender of a friend, depending on the conversation at hand i.e. a female friend or a male friend. Saying boyfriend/girlfriend/man-friend/lady-friend in reference to a platonic relationship seems to give the wrong idea to people.
You are actually using it as an adjective in those examples. "Friend" is the noun there.
 

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
I sometimes use the term to describe the gender of a friend, depending on the conversation at hand i.e. a female friend or a male friend. Saying boyfriend/girlfriend/man-friend/lady-friend in reference to a platonic relationship seems to give the wrong idea to people.
There's nothing wrong with that.

The context Persephone is talking about would be like if you said "the men and females I'm friends with" or "I had some females at my house the other day". It's gross.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,421
I assume one could say "hello ladies". Technically it would be correct.

From woman to woman, yes. but what about a man greeting women friends?
"Hello ladies" is the *fat-guy-tipping-the-hat* meme
"Hey girls" can also be construed as sexist or have sexual overtones.
"Hey women" sounds more like an order in the "husband sits on the couch an calls his wife to bring him something"

Between those three, "Hey guys" seems to me the most non-sexist way of a greeting, because it is so universally used and can not be seen as a sexual advance.
 

Deleted member 18360

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,844
I think it might be appropriate as an abstract adjective (for example, in the phrase 'the female experience', or something) but as a relatively specific noun it does to my ear sound like you're some kind of weird observer of animal behaviour, or objectifying people as some kind of oppositional other, or something.
 

sabrina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,174
newport beach, CA
Because OP was the one to start the conversation and doing so would have allowed for organic and genuine conversation to start right off the bat rather than having to wade through pages of the topic to catch up.

Additionally considering the word feminist is a noun, yes.
Honestly, this is bullshit. If you have the energy to engage in the thread by posting in it and responding to other people who have posted in it, then you have the energy to read the other posts that have better explained what the OP is getting at, or do the research on your own. At this point you're just whining just to whine.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,225
From woman to woman, yes. but what about a man greeting women friends?
"Hello ladies" is the *fat-guy-tipping-the-hat* meme
"Hey girls" can also be construed as sexist or have sexual overtones.
"Hey women" sounds more like an order in the "husband sits on the couch an calls his wife to bring him something"

Between those three, "Hey guys" seems to me the most non-sexist way of a greeting, because it is so universally used and can not be seen as a sexual advance.
You could just say say" hey everyone" or simply "hello"
 

Kaban

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,502
There's nothing wrong with that.

The context Persephone is talking about would be like if you said "the men and females I'm friends with" or "I had some females at my house the other day". It's gross.
gotcha, yeah, I have no idea why anyone would use the term in that way. Makes it sound like they're a different species.
 

NameUser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,113
From woman to woman, yes. but what about a man greeting women friends?
"Hello ladies" is the *fat-guy-tipping-the-hat* meme
"Hey girls" can also be construed as sexist or have sexual overtones.
"Hey women" sounds more like an order in the "husband sits on the couch an calls his wife to bring him something"

Between those three, "Hey guys" seems to me the most non-sexist way of a greeting, because it is so universally used and can not be seen as a sexual advance.
I say, "Hey y'all" to every group now. Sounds a little country, but it works.
 

iapetus

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,080
I mean, it's better to not use a gendered nouns at all, but honestly i feel like saying, what's up guys is better than saying, what's up group of women? Should just be how y'all doing? But generally speaking I think guys has sort of become gender neutral.

"What's up, ladies?"

I've heard this quite a bit. I've been addressed that way myself at times. :P
 

Keldroc

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,033
From woman to woman, yes. but what about a man greeting women friends?
"Hello ladies" is the *fat-guy-tipping-the-hat* meme
"Hey girls" can also be construed as sexist or have sexual overtones.
"Hey women" sounds more like an order in the "husband sits on the couch an calls his wife to bring him something"

Between those three, "Hey guys" seems to me the most non-sexist way of a greeting, because it is so universally used and can not be seen as a sexual advance.

"Hey everyone."
"Hey all."
"Hey y'all."
"Hey folks."
"Hey friends."

I mean I know this is advanced but I do have a degree in English so don't feel too bad.
 

SugarNoodles

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,625
Portland, OR
Because OP was the one to start the conversation and doing so would have allowed for organic and genuine conversation to start right off the bat rather than having to wade through pages of the topic to catch up.

Additionally considering the word feminist is a noun, yes.
I feel like expecting a poster to "wade through" pages of a topic is more reasonable than every late comer getting a personal briefing.

I could be wrong (and if so I apologize), but I don't think OP is looking to have genuine and organic conversation with you over this. I think she's telling you that it's dehumanizing and that you shouldn't do it.

What kind of contexts does your academic advisors refer to women as "females" in?
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
From woman to woman, yes. but what about a man greeting women friends?
"Hello ladies" is the *fat-guy-tipping-the-hat* meme
"Hey girls" can also be construed as sexist or have sexual overtones.
"Hey women" sounds more like an order in the "husband sits on the couch an calls his wife to bring him something"

Between those three, "Hey guys" seems to me the most non-sexist way of a greeting, because it is so universally used and can not be seen as a sexual advance.
I cannot imagine a group of ladies that don't like being referred to as "guys" are gonna be bothered by saying "hey ladies". I don't think most women are bothered by "guys" either from what I've seem/heard.
 

Skelepuzzle

Member
Apr 17, 2018
6,119
From woman to woman, yes. but what about a man greeting women friends?
"Hello ladies" is the *fat-guy-tipping-the-hat* meme
"Hey girls" can also be construed as sexist or have sexual overtones.
"Hey women" sounds more like an order in the "husband sits on the couch an calls his wife to bring him something"

Between those three, "Hey guys" seems to me the most non-sexist way of a greeting, because it is so universally used and can not be seen as a sexual advance.

I really don't think there is anything wrong with "ladies" in this context.
 

jviggy43

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
18,184
Honestly, this is bullshit. If you have the energy to engage in the thread by posting in it and responding to other people who have posted in it, then you have the energy to read the other posts that have better explained what the OP is getting at, or do the research on your own. At this point you're just whining just to whine.
I wasn't whining I was actually answering a question posed to me by a poster so get that shit out of here. Additionally assuming I haven't been catching up or reading why the OP took this stance in the first place is a baseless assumption on your part. I simply asked for clarification, theres no need to freak out about it.

I feel like expecting a poster to "wade through" pages of a topic is more reasonable than every late comer getting a personal briefing.

I could be wrong (and if so I apologize), but I don't think OP is looking to have genuine and organic conversation with you over this. I think she's telling you that it's dehumanizing and that you shouldn't do it.

What kind of contexts does your academic advisors refer to women as "females" in?

There doesn't need to be a personal briefing if OP updated the post with the content they wish to put forth in the argument. I don't understand how thats even a contentious point to make, just update it for the sake of getting everyone on the same page.

The fact that you have to add the caveat of possibly assuming the OP's intentions in their own thread is a reason for why I simply asked for them to clarify because I didn't understand the context it was being employed for (which is clearer now that I have googled it).

As for how my advisors use it I don't believe Ive recalled them using it in a way such as "the female did this or that", but its been a few years since Ive had any of those conversations with them. I can't imagine that was the case.
 

Sgt. Demblant

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,030
France
Uh, this thread is interesting.
I was surprised when I started learning english by the common use of the word female to refer to actual women. Since that would be unthinkable in my language. But after a while I started thinking that it was just a cultural idiosyncrasy of the english language and that there was no negative connotation so I started using it, but only in english. But I guess I was mistaken, I'll try to adjust accordingly.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,210
I can assure you many will take offense with you using "ladies". Either it is too old or too young or it plays into the stereotype of "M'lady".
Who the hell is gonna be offended by somebody describing their family as living in a "house full of ladies"? Who is gonna say or think "how dare you refer to your daughters and wife as ladies"
 

WarLox

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
574
I say males and females all the time. I've never heard anyone say men and females. Female is a word that I've learned in school and its a word that is socially accepted by the general mass.

I dont agree with the reasoning as to why people shouldn't say female, but i do respect the right someone has to be offended.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
11,869
I will say actually that while I'm guilty of having used female sometimes online I've never used it in real life to refer to a women or women. Who the hell would do that?

Girls can be fine I feel if you use it more ironically like "Gurlz". Same way I call my friends Boys like "Boiz.". You have to be aware obviosuly of whose gonna be fine with that.
 

Black_Red

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,929
I think I have thidbproblem with English, since I comonly use "a female friend/a male friend" to translate amiga/amigo.its so weird to me that I have to use an extra word to specify genre in english

Specially weird since girl friend means a different thing.
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,550
New York
Using females as a noun I can definitely agree with it being stupid and dehumanizing. Same thing for something like blacks.

What I have issue with is people saying not to use it as an adjective when it serves a viable purpose/role in the language and is generally how it's supposed to be used.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
The context Persephone is talking about would be like if you said "the men and females I'm friends with" or "I had some females at my house the other day". It's gross.

...people do that? Is it an American thing, 'cause I must admit that I've never heard anyone speak like that. It's kinda jarring, the sort of thing that'd stick out.
 

dyst

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,461
I've seen my two year old niece called young lady or young woman. It comes off as being very respectful
I wasn't suggesting whether or not it is respectful just merely pointing out that "women" by definition should be used for females that are adult. Whereas "girls" by definition should be used for females that are young (not adult age yet).

Young lady is fine because lady encompasses all ages young and adult.
 

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
Reading "female" in the way people use it has always been one of the weirdest fucking things in the English-speaking internet for me as a native Portuguese speaker.

Our equivalent word, "fêmea", is never used to describe human beings outside of, maybe, medical reports.
Funnily enough, "macho" is widely used to talk about "real men".

With regards to this topic, never heard any of my English speaker friends use female like that, thought I don't doing that's a thing. And yeah, I can see how it's dehumanizing, so I wouldn't say that myself.
 

NameUser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,113
Using females as a noun I can definitely agree with it being stupid and dehumanizing. Same thing for something like blacks.

What I have issue with is people saying not to use it as an adjective when it serves a viable purpose/role in the language and is generally how it's supposed to be used.
Yeah, it has a place. Always use the best word for the job. But most of the time it's used incorrectly and in a derogatory fashion.
 

Irminsul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,061
As a non-native English speaker, I always find it really weird if someone uses "female" (or male, for that matter) as a noun for humans. Part of that is certainly due to the fact that you can't really do that in German. But I also always think "Why don't you just write (wo)men instead? it's shorter!" It really sounds like "this other species I refrain from interacting with". I don't get the argument about groups of women of different ages, honestly. I would just not use any gendered word and instead say something like "Hello, everyone".

As a side note, I dislike the cup with "Male tears" written on it for the same reason. It should be "Men's tears", because the tears probably don't have a gender.
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,225
...people do that? Is it an American thing, 'cause I must admit that I've never heard anyone speak like that. It's kinda jarring, the sort of thing that'd stick out.
Yes.

Just last week I was talking to my bro in law about attending a baby shower and he said something along the lines of "Why would I go to a baby shower? There will be nothing but females there."
 

PhazonBlonde

User requested ban
Banned
May 18, 2018
3,293
Somewhere deep in space
I wasn't suggesting whether or not it is respectful just merely pointing out that "women" by definition should be used for females that are adult. Whereas "girls" by definition should be used for females that are young (not adult age yet).

Young lady is fine because lady encompasses all ages young and adult.
Then say ladies. Girls doesn't explicitly mean underage anymore than boy does
 
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