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Pokémon for Nintendo Switch Speculation Thread 2 | What Defines a New Thread?
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Why does it need to be completely tied to single player? you still haven't told me.
You cant compare every competitive game by the same metric of balancing and tier lists. Comparing a turn based strategy combat system like Pokemon to a fighting game tier list is off the walls crazy for obvious reasons like player skill, balance patches and characters being much more intricately unique. I dont think you can really compare hitboxes and framedata to pokemon stats
Its not even about a small advantage when so many Pokemon are straight up trash just to make others look better by comparison. ie. give me some special optional postgame quest to get pikachu with raichus stats as an alternative to light ball. ANYTHING AT ALL.
so have an indication that they share their evolved forms attributes. done.
obviously you wouldn't have stealth stats like that
Player skill still exists within Pokemon as well. I've seen PU teams do well against OU ones when the one player is more skilled, especially if the other player has less familiarity with what the PU Pokemon can do. And the reason competitive is tied to single player is because that's honestly a part of the point of Pokemon in the first place: You raise Pokemon in the single player and then can use the Pokemon you've raised to battle your friends. Separate the aspects entirely and they might as well be two separate games. And balancing Pokemon is harder than balancing a fighting game because as a general rule a given Pokemon has way more options than a given fighting game character. The more options a character has, the harder it is to avoid missing a specific option that straight up breaks the game. And with a handful of devs on balance, you're never going to beat the legion of players in that regard
I've posted it multiple times in the old thread.
Ohmori: nowadays the rate at which people get new information is very fast becauase of the internet. The cycle between getting new information and digesting it has become very short. In such an age, I feel that it's becoming more important to release new information and new games as soon as possible. This is why we have new releases in a short period of time.
Source
Cool, so now all Pokemon in a line are equal, but it still does nothing if that Pokemon's entire line isn't very useful in the first place. No matter what you do, making every Pokemon competitively viable is impossible. If you're that upset that you can't use all your favorite Pokemon in your competitive team, than just accept that competitive play isn't for you. Hell, even if every Pokemon was viable individually, it wouldn't change the fact that every combination of Pokemon for a team of 6 would not be viable regardless
single player doesn't last that long, and again theres nothing to stop there from being a post game quest to be able to use the pokemon in different ways in multiplayer long after the pve stuff has run its course, which honestlly turns into just a grind after the very light post game content we get.
you can buff some useless pokemons numbers, or give them more significant customization options even if it means they share the same exact purpose as some of the others. I dont see how thats a bad thing for pvp.
How is pikachu with raichus stats breaking the game? especially if they indicate the inheritance visually
im honestly sick of the anime having episodes where the unevolved form (recently the eevee episode) is perfect and strong the way it is and always being reminded that the game has actual barriers to prevent that possibility outside of things like the shitty baton pass Z move gimmick. The game does everything possible to make me feel like we're supposed to be sociopath kids who give no shits about life itself.
thats a really cynical stance to take
The anime is not a real representation of how competition works in the real world. It's a fantasy for children. In real life as important as effort and hard work are, there are barriers you can't overcome with them. Unless you have a certain body type, you can never hope to become the world's best swimmer for example. Hard work only gets you to the top when you also have talent. It's an important component, but there are always limitations you won't be able to pass with just hard work. That's simply the nature of competition in the real world
I sincerelly dunno why people believe that asking for a decent balance equals to balance everything(perhaps not reading). Theres a difference about the competitive and casual play, but anyone can see how competitive is extremelly repetitive and lack of diversity nowadays. This is something I would call super lame.
Competitive play has plenty of diversity. But again, improving that diversity to a significantly higher level than we have now would require ongoing patches, it's not something you can expect to happen in a single game even if they focus on it. Because again, they'll never be able to have more than a handful of people in charge of balance, and a handful of people on such a complex issue are always going to make oversights, which will inevitably be found when the legions of players get their hands on the game. Players will always have an overwhelming advantage in terms of the number of people looking for ways to unbalance the game, and the nature of competitive play is such that even a tiny advantage will be used if it's found
This is the most demented analogy ive heard for pokemon.
Critiquing the anime on its optimistic characteristics as "fantasy for kids" but the game is somehow exempt from that....
you know what, ive been dealt a really shitty hand in life too, but having people tell me I shouldn't be able to use my favourite characters in games because its somehow analogous to being fucked over by genetics in reality makes me sick to my stomach.
Like actually sick.
You know what would be the coolest, tightest shit? Remember how there were keys in Black 2/White 2 for easier/harder difficulties. Take that shit, except make a key for all double battles. Would make the games super replayable.
There is no competitive character based game on the planet where all characters are equally viable. No matter what game you look at, in a competitive setting some options are just bad.
The moment you start actually competing with real people is the moment it's impossible to maintain the fantasy of overcoming all odds and such.
I'd agree but don't make it a key, give us the option from the start.
wtf does that have to do with teaching kids they should know their place genetically and that hard work doesn't ultimately mean shit? ive never read something so messed up regarding pokemon before
like you have actually connected my fucked up life to being comparable to rejected pokemon that get dumped for something better because it has to be that way. real life lessons for kids?
Anyways seeing as im not on the "GF will add any truely new Pokemon other than forms" train I wonder how they will mix up the early route mons. I feel like you can toss Yungoose there with their history with Rattata. I'd love Hoot Hoot to be an early bird at night since Jotho isnt that far.
Hard work is important. I never said it wasn't. I said hard work alone will never get you to the top. That's life. And kids are really not a very large segment of the competitive Pokemon audience anyways. The vast majority of people playing games like Pokemon competitively are adults.
you first make an argument for how its better to represent human deficiency in a game for kids, but now you're saying its only really factoring for adults who play? which is it?
I wasn't saying it's better to represent human deficiency. I was saying that real competition ultimately works differently from the fantasy shows like Pokemon present. In a real competition people who win are those who make sure to use any advantage they can get. So even if the difference in viability between two pokemon who filled the same role was incredibly small, you'd still see a huge gap in which one people were using at a competitive level.
I really hope we get like 4 years between new gens. We don't need Pokemon every year...I'll take Kanto this year with a Johto DLC next year. Then in 2020 gen 8.
For dexterity purposes, this is the timeline of mainline Pokemon game releases I put together in the other thread.
Yeah, you'd be surrprised how much diversity there is in most Pokemon formats. Hell, some people have complained about there being TOO MANY viable Pokemon, since a large amount of viable Pokemon can be difficult to prepare for when team building! Regardless, I think its fine that not every Pokemon is viable. Balancing over 800 monsters is frankly totally unreasonable!
Something to note is that one of Pokemon's biggest strengths is that you can basically get totally different games just by tinkering with the banlist. This is most well known by Smogon's tiering system (where you have one format that allows everything that is banned, then the next format bans whatever Pokemon has a certain amount of usage, and it keeps going like that), but even Gamefreak tinkers with this via their Battle Spot Special formats every season, and the wide variety of strange tournaments they've done. Like to give an example of some of the stuff this has led to: I remember last gen when we had the Kanto Classic format, SEAKING of all fucking things made a niche for itself because it was the best check to Zapdos due to Lightning Rod rofl, and it could spam Horn Drill to be a general pain in the ass.
I should also note that when you start hunting for successful teams in most metagames, you're going to come across some high ranking teams that use very weird Pokemon. Sometimes, when making a Pokemon team, you're left with a hole in your team, and the common standards just won't solve your problem, so you gotta hunt through the Pokedex and see if you find a Pokemon that CAN solve your problem! The most infamous example is probably when Se Jun Park won VGC 2014 with Follow Me Pachirisu. If I recall, he used Pachirisu because a lot of Pokemon were starting to run Safety Goggles to get around Rage Powder Amoonguss, and Pachirisu would stop that strategy dead in its trackcs (in addition to pairing well with Gyarados and Garchomp). To use a more obscure example, while hunting for some Japanese Battle Spot Singles QR codes that reached a ranking of over 2000 points, I came across a strange team that was using Eelektross without an Eelctric-type attack!
Now, stuff like STABless Eelektross is something I'd never approve a Smogon analysis for, since lets face it: That makes no sense on most teams! However, this team in particular needed it to cover some threats they were having problems with, and it clearly worked very well for them considering how highly ranked they ended up being! This kind of stuff happens in Pokemon all the time, so I'd argue most metagames have a reasonable amount of diversity.
What is feasible to balance better however, is the typing chart. Ice in particular desperately needs a defensive buff, because while its a fantastic offensive typing, we have a lot of slow bulky Ice-types who are ruined by it being a god awful defensive typing. Bug might not be a bad one to buff either, maybe removing its Rock weakness could go a looong way to making those Pokemon much more interesting Ground-type checks. That's just stuff off the top of my head though, Im sure plenty of rebalancing of the type chart could be done.
Regardless, if your goal in Pokemon balancing is "I want my faveorites to be good", I just can't see that as realisitic. No matter what Gamefreak does, there's always going to be Pokemon that franky aren't good at all in competitive play, harsh as that is.
My personal solution for this is to use Pokemon I think are cool in my in-game adventures, and get serious when I battle online. So for example, when I was doing a 2nd run of Pokemon SM a while back, I traded myself a level 1 Dhelmise for use early in the game. I think Dhelmise looks cool, but I'd probably never use it online because its super slow, not very bulky, and has an iffy movepool. But when playing ingame, that doesn't really matter too much because its not like the AI's teams are made for competitive play in mind either! I think there's nothing wrong with sticking to faveorites on an in-game run. There isn't really anything wrong with sticking to faves in competitive play either, but thing is, that will likely HEAVILY handicap your team. And I think that's ok, because you still got a place to use Pokemon you think are cool without it causing you to lose!
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Why do you care so much about how reality depicts competition and why should that matter in a particularly juvenile game where you're a 10 yr old anime kid catching gods and fighting weird supervillains?
How is it not better to show that a trainer and his friend can overcome adversity, as opposed to the equivalent of your boss acting like your friend until they find a replacement and promptly fire you?
you know what would better get me through today? not being told that im inferior and it has to be that way, but rather that there is a way to keep up in this world despite everything telling me to disappear
They did create some moves on XY for instance, but they not even care much for them.
For instance, Eletric Terrain would be pretty interesting if they give more pokemons abilities in the same fashion as Alola Raichu. But instead A-Raichu and Gogoat are the only pokemon ever introduced to take advantage of them. Why not expand this instead of creating Tapus who already call those terrains? Also, do people ever heard of Iierie Impulse? Or Rototiller?
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And 2002-2006 and 2006-2010 is 4 years.
Well, there it is.I've posted it multiple times in the old thread.
Ohmori: nowadays the rate at which people get new information is very fast becauase of the internet. The cycle between getting new information and digesting it has become very short. In such an age, I feel that it's becoming more important to release new information and new games as soon as possible. This is why we have new releases in a short period of time.
Source
With the announcement of Switch Online details
I can feel it in the air
Pokemon is coming
JMON
I can feel it in the air
Pokemon is coming
JMON
You can overcome adversity, you just have to be significantly better than the person you're battling, and not have this weird expectation that NFE should be capable of everything their evolved counterparts are. The games have never attempted to set that expectation, bringing on baggage from the anime that takes tons of liberties just isn't going to do you any favors.
The reason why you think that is because you're making the assumption that the games and anime are the same when there's nothing to suggest that. Not to mention, the way the anime and games handle battling is completely different, so it's unrealistic to expect one to be copied onto another when you have battle mechanics, base stats, movepools etc. to take into account. That said, they are not "barriers." There is no realistic expectation of NFE mons being able to overpower other Pokemon.
Also, I don't get the whole "game does everything possible to make me feel like we're supposed to be sociopath kids who give no shits about life itself." take.
Not to sound rude, but this seems like a big over reaction to what Aaronrules380 was getting at. From what I'm reading, he's basically saying that no matter what Gamefreak can try, there's always going to be a pretty large group of Pokemon that aren't competiitvely viable. That doesn't mean you can't use them ingame or can't like them. To use an extreme analogy myself: Stephan Hawking (may he rest in peace :[ ) would not have been a viable football player, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was a brilliant physicst. To apply that to Pokemon: Pikachu is not a competitively viable Pokemon in most cases, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's the face of the franchise, and probably the most loved of all the Pokemon!
That doesn't mean Gamefreak can't make certain popular, unevolved Pokemon have interesting niches though. I know you used Extreme Evoboost Eevee as the "wrong way" of doing it, but funnily enough, I'd disagree a bit here, since there's been plenty of high ranking teams on Battle Spot Singles that are dedicated around Eevee. To the point where I've actually made decsions for teams based around "oh shit my team is extremely weak to Eevee. I think I'll need Taunt on this Pokemon to block the Memento!"
However, making all unevolved Pokemon sorta seems like a fool's errand to me. Even with your transmorgification idea, there are plenty of entire lines of Pokemon that don't do well in competitive play. The only way I can think of this working is if Pokemon models basically became "skins", and team preview told you what the Pokemon really was. So say, you see Caterpie in team preview, but the game tells you that it's really Volcarona using a Caterpie skin. I can see gamefreak not liking this though, because it'd lead to weird stuff like a Caterpie using Fiery Dance, which would make no sense asthetically lol. I'd personally be fine with it since I tend to treat Pokemon as more of a numbers strategy game than anything, but I can see how that may rub some people the wrong way!
TBH I think the big issue with these moves is that they require much more specfic Pokemon to abuse them even ignoring abilities. That really isn't like Trick Room, which is a very general move that effects a large amount of Pokemon. Giving more Pokemon Surge Surfer would make things a bit more interesting (sorta like how in doubles, manual weather setters are a thing, manual terrain setters could become a thing if there were better Pokemon to abuse them), but I can't see it having the same effect as Trick Room. I'm not quite sure how one would go about making another move as game changing as Trick Room atm, but I do know in order for it to be as good it'd have to effect pretty much every Pokemon on the field.
Dude you cut him DEEP lol.
I think a better comparable would be playing NBA games. Maybe the Suns are your team and you get really good at using them but if you meet a equal skill level player and their team is the Warriors then you are at a disadvantage. That's just competition.
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Its not an all or nothing idea, and anything to make even a few of peoples favourites more viable is not a bad thing.
They don't need to share absolutely everything outside of base stats, but even if they did, I dont see how thats weirder than seeing fish pokemon swimming mid air or the many shared attack animations of the game that visually dont exactly line up with the model itself.
and Stephen Hawking would have been a powerful psychic type
it was just one idea, and I dont know what new things they will add that could change things significantly
thanks for the input
its a fantasy world with its own rules and realism is toxic to Pokemon as a concept.
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Yeah this is pretty much what I was trying to get at, thanks
I've posted it multiple times in the old thread.
Ohmori: nowadays the rate at which people get new information is very fast becauase of the internet. The cycle between getting new information and digesting it has become very short. In such an age, I feel that it's becoming more important to release new information and new games as soon as possible. This is why we have new releases in a short period of time.
Source
What does the Internet have to do with announcement times???
Game Freak makes stupid decisions sometimes (looking at you removing Battle Frontier because 'kids are using smartphones more')
Wasn't there a GameFaq rumor that said the online info would drop today and also had Pokémon info in it?
Like it being a Red/Blue Remake or some shit but different.
Like it being a Red/Blue Remake or some shit but different.
I'm guessing we'll still have to pay for Pokebank on top of the online services for Switch huh? Unless pokemon uses it's own online service and Pokebank gets rolled into that...
I don't care if it's right or wrong but that's more than a lucky guess. The couple of YouTubers who reported this and a podcast I watch wonder if we would receive any form of news today and we did. That's like that user back on Gaf who said he could've guessed the Name of Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon when debating old leaks.
There was that guy on twitter that got the direct right, but nothing else.
But if the guy admitted that it was BS, then that should be the end of it.
Asset creation is definitely one of the more costly portions of development; they spend the money to spread out work in order to make the process go faster. You can see in the credits that GF already outsources work. Making new assets for a Gen 1 remake or a Gen 8 game aren't gonna be too different in time
Ok... I wasn't going to read a whole gamefaqs thread. And it came from gamefaqs, words cannot express my dislike for that place. I just read the post I quoted and remember a similar thought about a old Gaf member who said he could've guessed the names of Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon when we were discussing old leaks at the time.
Getting literally one detail right and every single little other bit wrong is a fluke, not a leak.
Design and iteration take up a massive amount of time in game development. Working off of a base, no matter how old, is always faster than doing something from scratch.
Seriously. Especially in this case where the was literally a 10 day window, and 6 of those days were unlikely due to being part of either goldenweek or the weekend. Picking at random you still had an essentially 1 in 4 shot. Even if you didn't know the specific wording in Japanese used for early May meant before the 10th, it'd be reasonable to assume before the 15th, which at worst means your shot becomes 1 in 7 instead once we discount the weekends and golden week
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