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Walnut

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 2, 2017
879
Austin, TX
This is definitely a bad look considering how much money they're throwing out to try to break Steam

If they spent probably even 5% of it on a live service team who primarily work on fixing broken live content, these people would be able to work normal 40 hour weeks and take time off
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,029
This is definitely a bad look considering how much money they're throwing out to try to break Steam

If they spent probably even 5% of it on a live service team who primarily work on fixing broken live content, these people would be able to work normal 40 hour weeks and take time off
They're trying. They have 216 open jobs, and the article says they pay the most in the industry. Other than slowing down content updates, which gamers hate, what else should they be doing?

https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/careers
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,815
They're trying. They have 216 open jobs, and the article says they pay the most in the industry. Other than slowing down content updates, which gamers hate, what else should they be doing?

https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/careers

Slow down the fucking updates! How is this even a question? If the current rate can't be sustained without working people to the point of burn-out then of course slow down until you can figure out a way to deliver that content more efficiently and without throwing your developers into the meat grinder!
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,029
Slow down the fucking updates! How is this even a question? If the current rate can't be sustained without working people to the point of burn-out then of course slow down until you can figure out a way to deliver that content more efficiently and without throwing your developers into the meat grinder!
OK. Gamers would complain about it for sure, just like they do here in the Battlefield and Apex Legends topics. DICE (BF) is a union shop, and I've never once seen anyone here say, "It's true the content drops are really slow, but I'm glad the devs have a great work/life balance thanks to being unionized so I don't mind." Not once.
 

Spider-Man

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,353
It is crazy to know that the two most successful developers on the planet (Epic and Rockstar) cannot afford the time and budget to make development life easier for their staff.
 

ElBoxy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,137
OK. Gamers would complain about it for sure, just like they do here in the Battlefield and Apex Legends topics. DICE (BF) is a union shop, and I've never once seen anyone here say, "It's true the content drops are really slow, but I'm glad the devs have a great work/life balance thanks to being unionized so I don't mind." Not once.
Fortnite in it's current state doesn't need anymore big updates that change the meta. In fact most players want to go back to the previous meta with health regen on kills and fast farming. If there is to updates every week it only needs to address the small problems like weapon balancing and glitches. They don't need to immediately throw out an update the next day to fix something caused by an update from just a day ago. There's better planning for this stuff, but the senior management at Epic feels like they want to throw as much at the wall and whatever doesn't work has to be quickly dealt with.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
OK. Gamers would complain about it for sure, just like they do here in the Battlefield and Apex Legends topics. DICE (BF) is a union shop, and I've never once seen anyone here say, "It's true the content drops are really slow, but I'm glad the devs have a great work/life balance thanks to being unionized so I don't mind." Not once.
They can still offer weekly updates but they just don't have to be so drastic/massive. They don't need to introduce new weapons, items, vehicles and gameplay systems every week. A lot of Fortnite players hate the "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" style badly balanced & thought out updates that constantly throw the meta out of whack and ruin game balance until Epic gets the balance right after 2-3+ weeks of patches or remove them altogether because they just don't fit the meta. Maybe they don't have to release new skins & microtransaction content at such an insane pace. They already have a gazillion skins at this point that a vast majority of players haven't had the chance to get, they could just recycle those more instead of the constant stream of new content. They don't need to introduce new game modes constantly. Recycle those that they have already instead of pushing new shit like Air Royale all the time. Release new modes when they have been able to do them in a more reasonable timeframe/work hours. They could make a bit fewer changes to the map on a weekly basis. Do all of these and the pressure to overwork would certainly diminish. Perhaps still not quite to regular 40 hour weeks but maybe people would never have to work 100 hour weeks.
 
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Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,584
Yes, that one game did give them the valuation, and no they were not earning billions before it. No goalpost moving there, it's just the facts. In June 2012 when Tencent bought 40%, the company was valued at $825M. So what should they do when their game blows up and is the #1 game in the world, and gamers are clamoring for updates (just look at any Battlefield or Apex Legends topic here for that), should they say, "It's 6pm folks, time to go, we'll get that update out next month, it's fine."? You think that's how they'd stay #1 with competition breathing down their necks? The article talked about paying people 3x their salary in bonuses, and Epic having the best compensation in the industry. That's a nice trade-off for some hard work, especially considering nobody knows how long Fortnite will be this big.
2012 was 7 years ago. They have billions in profits.
 
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Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,029
2012 was 7 years ago. They have billions in profits. You are wrong.
For future consideration, when someone posts facts and you post an opinion you call a fact, that actually makes you the one that's wrong, not the other person. They went from $825M valuation to $15BN because of Fortnite, not from Unreal Engine or Bulletstorm Remaster or Paragon or whatever.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,584
For future consideration, when someone posts facts and you post an opinion you call a fact, that actually makes you the one that's wrong, not the other person. They went from $825M valuation to $15BN because of Fortnite, not from Unreal Engine or Bulletstorm Remaster or Paragon or whatever.
You said that Epic doesn't have billions. This isn't correct.
 
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Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,029
You said that Epic doesn't have billions. You are objectively wrong - and, frankly, don't understand the valuation process if you think that growth was all on the back of one game.
You're saying I'm objectively wrong because of a straw man you made up. It doesn't work that way. You also clearly do not have the faintest idea how valuations work. Or did you think Bulletstorm Remaster was the real reason for their jump in valuation?
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,584
You're saying I'm objectively wrong because of a straw man you made up. It doesn't work that way. You also clearly do not have the faintest idea how valuations work. Or did you think Bulletstorm Remaster was the real reason for their jump in valuation?
You said "It helps when your company is making billions year in year out and so deadlines are irrelevant."

Epic *is* making billions a year, so by your wording, deadlines are irrelevant. If you would like to make some other point, that's another thing.

How do you think valuation works? Where exactly is that number coming from? Like, not the specific product - how exactly is it calculated? I know how it is. Do you? What kind of timeframe do you think these investors look at? How do they do projections? Which line items do they care about? How do they sensitize different aspects of said projections? What multiples do they apply, and where?
 
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Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,029
You said "It helps when your company is making billions year in year out and so deadlines are irrelevant."

Epic *is* making billions a year, so by your wording, deadlines are irrelevant. If you would like to make some other point, I look forward to your goalpost moving.

Tell me, how do you think valuation works? Where exactly is that number coming from? Like, not the specific product - how exactly is it calculated? I know how it is. Do you?
My comment was about Valve. I'm not humoring you any more by following down your rabbit hole of straw men and lies.
 

Jakisthe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,584
^ All of your posts. If and until you actually have something to say, we're done.
I said that Epic makes billions, in response to you claiming that because Valve makes billions, they don't need to care about deadlines. By your initial wording, Epic should *also* not need to care about deadlines, because they too make billions - an objective fact.

Epic isn't some small company here, is my point. This has likely been the case for many years now, and is almost certainly not on the back of a single game, because valuations don't really work like that from a calculation standpoint, but even if those things aren't true - something which is incredibly unlikely - that doesn't change the fact that Epic is a large company with billions of dollars being made.
 
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VFX_Veteran

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,003
Have you ever been in a hiring position before?

Hiring people is not easy, and having "lots of money" is only a small factor in growing your team. Among the other factors:
  • You need to make sure they're the right culture fit. Hiring someone who isn't can drag down team morale or worse.
  • Different locations have different talent pools. Epic is located in North Carolina, and there's not much of a games industry there (or on the East Coast in general). If you don't want to hire local, then you have to convince talent to move, and that's easier said than done. If you want to start a second satellite studio, then you have to contend with the logistics of remote development and communication, and very few studios without "Ubisoft" in their name have shown themselves capable of that level of project management.
  • You need to make sure that they're of the right skill level. Again, easier said than done. Oftentimes, the job requires you to be trained on their development pipeline, especially for mid or senior level jobs.
Aside from that, as mentioned in the article, not every problem can be solved by hiring more people. Oftentimes, especially in software development, more people makes the problem worse. If a basketball team isn't performing well, do you just hire more players and coaches? If a building isn't being built fast enough, do you just hire more construction workers even if they can't all fit on the scaffolding? Games development is no different from the above, as more people necessitates more communication and more coordination, and time wasted on onboarding new employees.

This is the main problem in the tech sector -- the whiteboard interviewing. I think that this slows down hiring significantly, gives the company a false sense of confidence on the correct tactics to pick the ideal candidate and wastes an enormous amount of time doing interview prepping. It should be mitigated drastically and the days of good ole fashion "talk shop" readopted. Solving algorithm problems on a whiteboard might be the correct course of action for college graduates, but it's annoyingly painful for seniors who already have proven their value from previous jobs. I don't need a whiteboard to judge a candidates ability to do the job. All I need is for them to explain to me in detail about things they have done on their resume.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,733
Slow down the updates.

The fundamental issue here is the culture that says that consumers are never responsible for the consequences of their (increasingly unreasonable) demands. "I want a phone that does my taxes and can fight crime" turns into slave labor in China. The only way this gets fixed in the long term is for consumers to be more conscious about how what they're asking for means in real terms for the people tasked with providing it.
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
Exactly. Its double standard to say 'Valve can afford work-life balance because they earn billions', but not apply that to Epic when they are earning billions too.

Weird how a company which has a well work-life balance is demonized by a company who grind their 'bodies' to death.
 

Komo

Info Analyst
Verified
Jan 3, 2019
7,110
Epic needs to calm their updates down even their Pro players hate their consistently changing meta because they don't know what their doing.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,029
It's literally that easy... you post on an enthusiasm forum. You don't think a couple of the people here could make the game better?
It's literally not that easy. For one thing, they've always been hiring, and they over over 200 open job postings currently. For another, consider me skeptical that some of the people here could make the #1 game in the world better than the trained professionals who have been shipping games at Epic since before many of the posters here were even born.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,615
So Epic more-less got out easily. Remember Rockstar crunch news? Both developers and PR made statements and it was still news for weeks and even impacted some reviews of RDR2.