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BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
4,576
It actually works the same as GDDR5. It's just a name change due to the fact that GDDR6 has a 2-Channel mode where it can address single memory modules as if they were 2 GDDR5 modules. Read the whitepaper.

Actually this may be the case for Micron but PS4 uses Samsung chips. The below article has a graph that indicates max RAM would be 16GB (256bit) and 24GB (384bit)?

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1236...rtfolio-8-gbps-ics-new-io-speed-bins-included

Or are Anandtech forgetting about Clamshell mode completely here?
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,773
SSDs are not happening, especially a massive 1TB drive. It's time to let it go.
I'm not counting on it. I'd like it.
Aren't the Samsung 850 1TBs like $330 today? Give it three years and it isn't that crazy to think it could be cheaper

At $330, I imagine it costs $110-$150 to make max since Samsung likely sells the commercial product at triple cost to maximize profit. Give it a few years and I see no reason why Costs can't come down, by late 2020, to $50-$70 per SSD tho of course, I do think Sony/Ms would not want to spend more than $30-$40 per unit on storage so likely a 2TB HDD.

A 250GB SSD is like $100 MSRP, so likely $30-$40 to make IMO.

Again, I'm not expecting it but I'd love it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,142
Somewhere South
Actually this may be the case for Micron but PS4 uses Samsung chips. The below article has a graph that indicates max RAM would be 16GB (256bit) and 24GB (384bit)?

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1236...rtfolio-8-gbps-ics-new-io-speed-bins-included

Or are Anandtech forgetting about Clamshell mode completely here?

Clamshell Mode is part of the JEDEC spec, so it would surprise me quite a bit if Samsung were to forego it.

I do think Sony/Ms would not want to spend more than $30-$40 per unit on storage so likely a 2TB HDD.

Yup, a 2TB HDD is much, much more likely. Since they quite likely will go the HBCC + NAND route, you won't even notice it's not running from an SSD, because it will load stuff just as fast.
 
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Segafreak

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,756
I'm hoping for (and sorry if I say this ever few pages), 8 cores @3Ghz, 11TF, 7nm+, 32GB RAM, 128GB Blu Ray XL and ideally a 1TB SSD, holiday 2020. Full 4K push similar to 360/PS3's HD push in 05/06

I wouldn't be shocked if they don't support 720p resolution. Idk if that would mean they wouldn't work on 720p sets, maybe downsampled? Seems like they could make it 4K/1080 only
My specz: Ryzen 8core16thread@3Ghz, 14Tflopz, 32GB HBM3, 7nm, 1TB SSHD, late 2020

Sony is gonna be forward thinking and come up with something that will take advantage of future PS5 iterations immediately, no more fiddling around with patches. 60fps will be an important factor, I predict a mandated performance mode for all 30fps games at a lower res. They'll also do something about the ballooning game sizes, soon we'll be swapping discs again.

about ssd prices
new.png

don't expect much to change in 3 years
 

Jessmo24

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
753
It's seems like we are a few years away from a truly next gen mass market machine. I want to point out that by 2020 the switch will look very dated, compared to a ps5. How long before we can get an X1X level device, on a switch form factor?
I don't mean to derail the thread, I'm just trying to get a feel for the future market.
Also, do you think Microsoft will wait on ps5? Or try and beat them to market?
 

VallenValiant

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,598
I predict a mandated performance mode for all 30fps games at a lower res.
Sony would never do that with third parties. First party games, MAYBE. But it is insane to make demands like that for major third party games from large companies.

If you want high framerate numbers, PSVR2 games in a few years is the only place to find it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
My specz: Ryzen 8core16thread@3Ghz, 14Tflopz, 32GB HBM3, 7nm, 1TB SSHD, late 2020

Sony is gonna be forward thinking and come up with something that will take advantage of future PS5 iterations immediately, no more fiddling around with patches. 60fps will be an important factor, I predict a mandated performance mode for all 30fps games at a lower res. They'll also do something about the ballooning game sizes, soon we'll be swapping discs again.

Neither Sony nor MS will do much about this, short of including the latest texture decompression and transcoding fixed function hardware as part of the GPU—which is inherent in AMD GPU designs so AMD is technically including this.

This will be an issue addressed on the developer side, since they will be the one making the trade-off between game size on disc and the performance hit of image data decompression/transcoding at runtime.

about ssd prices
new.png

don't expect much to change in 3 years

Yeah, with silicon scaling coming rapidly to a close with 5nm in 3 to 5 or so years, there's really not going to be much scope for future improvements in SSD pricing.

Oh I doubt that. I really do think Anandtech just felt it wasn't worth mentioning because no consumer GPU really uses clamshell mode anymore? Just a few pro GPUs do.

Yeah, desktop discrete parts haven't used clamshell mode for a long time. However, consoles have had no qualms here, since the PS4 used it at launch to achieve the target 8GB GDDR5 with 16 chips.
 

Iced_Eagle

Member
Dec 26, 2017
846
Sony would never do that with third parties. First party games, MAYBE. But it is insane to make demands like that for major third party games from large companies.

If you want high framerate numbers, PSVR2 games in a few years is the only place to find it.

Agreed. They can certainly recommend this to developers, but I highly doubt they will require it.

Microsoft tried mandating resolution and anti-aliasing requirements for the Xbox 360, and later removed it. It's too much of a burden on developers to have a platform maker enforce these sorts of requirements on their technical design for a game. A dev should feel free to choose how they want their game to run, and it's then in the hands of consumers to choose with their wallet if something doesn't meet their standards.

https://www.engadget.com/2009/09/02/microsoft-lifts-xbox-360-minimum-720p-anti-aliasing-mandate-for/
 

RoboPlato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,815
My specz: Ryzen 8core16thread@3Ghz, 14Tflopz, 32GB HBM3, 7nm, 1TB SSHD, late 2020

Sony is gonna be forward thinking and come up with something that will take advantage of future PS5 iterations immediately, no more fiddling around with patches. 60fps will be an important factor, I predict a mandated performance mode for all 30fps games at a lower res. They'll also do something about the ballooning game sizes, soon we'll be swapping discs again.
I can't see a performance mode being a mandatory requirement but I hope/expect we see devs including those options. They've been well recieved on the Pro/X and simply allowing for dynamic res or reconstruction instead of native 4K would be nice.

Alternatively I could see some games allowing for options like that to future proof games for updated consoles. Uncapped framerate modes would eventually be able to be 60fps modes on future hardware. VRR will also be supported so devs may allow uncapped options for those that have those displays anyway.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,904
Australia
Shit... What is MS going to do?

I think PS5 will be 400, and November '20-ish. Not only can MS not launch anywhere near that soon given the X just shipped, they also have to target 400, and still have a substantial leap beyond the X... What the fuck.

What would really screw Microsoft is if Sony decided to go hard and capitalise on the success of the PlayStation division and the evergreen revenue of PS+. If Sony went for a 2019 release at $499 with a unit cost of $700 or so (sounds silly but the launch PS3 was more extreme than that with no PS+, maybe they could mention the unit cost in the ads and market it as a kind of console of the future), along with enhanced BC and everything, I'm not sure what MS could do. They'd have to either launch at the same time (probably not a good look so soon after the 1X) with what would probably be a weaker console as I'm not sure the Xbox division could afford a similar loss, or wait a year or two, which is probably even worse. It would be a risky strategy, but it would put their competitor in a trap not many could get out of.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,904
Australia
I can't see a performance mode being a mandatory requirement but I hope/expect we see devs including those options. They've been well recieved on the Pro/X and simply allowing for dynamic res or reconstruction instead of native 4K would be nice.

Alternatively I could see some games allowing for options like that to future proof games for updated consoles. Uncapped framerate modes would eventually be able to be 60fps modes on future hardware. VRR will also be supported so devs may allow uncapped options for those that have those displays anyway.

Yeah, the 60fps mode would need to be how the game was developed in the first place. I'd love to see every game designed at checkerboard 4K and 60fps with a native 4K/30fps mode, but your way would be better. Though I'd like then to test dynamic extrapolation over dynamic resolution.
 

kappa_krey

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
630
What would really screw Microsoft is if Sony decided to go hard and capitalise on the success of the PlayStation division and the evergreen revenue of PS+. If Sony went for a 2019 release at $499 with a unit cost of $700 or so (sounds silly but the launch PS3 was more extreme than that with no PS+, maybe they could mention the unit cost in the ads and market it as a kind of console of the future), along with enhanced BC and everything, I'm not sure what MS could do. They'd have to either launch at the same time (probably not a good look so soon after the 1X) with what would probably be a weaker console as I'm not sure the Xbox division could afford a similar loss, or wait a year or two, which is probably even worse. It would be a risky strategy, but it would put their competitor in a trap not many could get out of.

A PS5 @ $700 has zero chance of justifying its price to even most hardcore gamers unless the games are god-tier killer apps, and with their current PS4 slate I don't think their dev stable atm would be able to make that kind of game for them in time for 2020. And even if they could....you are talking $700. This kind of pricing damaged PS3 early on and pretty much helped kill the 3DO, and relegated Neo-Geo AES to a premium niche product. That high a pricing does not do wonders for a gaming console and even a lot of early adopters would rather hold off and wait things out...all of which would benefit Microsoft.

I'll say this much: a $700 PS5 pretty much guarantees Microsoft next-gen in all the big Western markets and smaller ME/India/SA/African etc/ markets, and literally hands over Japan, China etc. to Nintendo. They would kill themselves at that price, or at least kill PlayStation. Never going to happen.

Why can't they just stack chips at 5nm until we figure things out. Multicores, double stacks. 5nm chips will eventually be in abubdance.

Heat and thermal dissipation issues, mainly, especially in a portable form-factor. It can also cause heating concerns with home consoles, as well.

There's also the issue of how adding the chips that way could affect total TDP; these guys usually try to aim very low (IIRC XOX's TDP is somewhere right around 200W, OG PS4 is around 170, and Switch is lower than both even when docked).
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
What would really screw Microsoft is if Sony decided to go hard and capitalise on the success of the PlayStation division and the evergreen revenue of PS+. If Sony went for a 2019 release at $499 with a unit cost of $700 or so (sounds silly but the launch PS3 was more extreme than that with no PS+, maybe they could mention the unit cost in the ads and market it as a kind of console of the future), along with enhanced BC and everything, I'm not sure what MS could do. They'd have to either launch at the same time (probably not a good look so soon after the 1X) with what would probably be a weaker console as I'm not sure the Xbox division could afford a similar loss, or wait a year or two, which is probably even worse. It would be a risky strategy, but it would put their competitor in a trap not many could get out of.
That would be an interesting tactic.

Shock everyone, do it 2019, make Death Stranding and The Last of Us 2 as the launch, and following March titles. FFVII remake for the June. It'd be cutthroat, you'd piss off the PS4 audience, but you'd also force their hand with three must play mega-titles.

I just don't think Sony would risk it. They have everything to lose. They have next-gen wrapped up already. MS have no first party, they have to launch later, or they have to burn every X owner. Sony can only lose if they seriously fuck it up. And how the industry looks eight years from now is anyone's guess. If there even will be a PS6/Xbox Three.
 

BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
4,576
Why can't they just stack chips at 5nm until we figure things out. Multicores, double stacks. 5nm chips will eventually be in abubdance.

Nah. I remember 2012 when PS4 was being discussed/rumoured and TSV and stacking was the next big thing with multiple cores being stacked along with HBM all on a single chip. All we have today 6 years later are a few high-end GPUs with stacked HBM/HBM2.

Here is a blast from the past that shows even Sony CTO's have high hopes and dreams: https://eandt.theiet.org/content/ar...-masaaki-tsuruta-sony-computer-entertainment/
 

Vinci

Member
Oct 29, 2017
669
Given how well it's selling, is there some concrete reason why Sony would prematurely end its life?
 

Vinci

Member
Oct 29, 2017
669
It wouldn't be the end of PS4 as it never is with Sony consoles....

Jus saying that it's outselling the PS2 at the same time in its life, or something like that, right? I'm just not seeing the need for Sony to split people's attention - from a consumer or development perspective - when there's no indication that it's slowing down.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,248
Jus saying that it's outselling the PS2 at the same time in its life, or something like that, right? I'm just not seeing the need for Sony to split people's attention - from a consumer or development perspective - when there's no indication that it's slowing down.

but it will have slowed down by 2020 or whenever ps5 begins to become a thing

varies from gen to gen but early adoption markets are their own thing for a few years. joe six pack who wants to throw $200 something odd dollars to play CoD on ps4 doesn't care about a $500 shiny new toy and it won't dissuade him.
 

RoboPlato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,815
Yeah, the 60fps mode would need to be how the game was developed in the first place. I'd love to see every game designed at checkerboard 4K and 60fps with a native 4K/30fps mode, but your way would be better. Though I'd like then to test dynamic extrapolation over dynamic resolution.
What's dynamic extrapolation? Some form of temporal reconstruction?
 

Iwao

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,826
A PS5 @ $700 has zero chance of justifying its price to even most hardcore gamers unless the games are god-tier killer apps, and with their current PS4 slate I don't think their dev stable atm would be able to make that kind of game for them in time for 2020. And even if they could....you are talking $700. This kind of pricing damaged PS3 early on and pretty much helped kill the 3DO, and relegated Neo-Geo AES to a premium niche product. That high a pricing does not do wonders for a gaming console and even a lot of early adopters would rather hold off and wait things out...all of which would benefit Microsoft.

I'll say this much: a $700 PS5 pretty much guarantees Microsoft next-gen in all the big Western markets and smaller ME/India/SA/African etc/ markets, and literally hands over Japan, China etc. to Nintendo. They would kill themselves at that price, or at least kill PlayStation. Never going to happen.

I think they meant selling the PS5 for $499, but its production costs being $700 (because it's the latest greatest tech etc).

So what they now make from PS+ could support that kind of loss per unit sold. It's quite the risk to take.
 

BitsandBytes

Member
Dec 16, 2017
4,576
Jus saying that it's outselling the PS2 at the same time in its life, or something like that, right? I'm just not seeing the need for Sony to split people's attention - from a consumer or development perspective - when there's no indication that it's slowing down.

Maybe but it is very different now. The younger generation especially love change and new tech. PS4 Pro arguably only increased (or slowed the decrease) of PS4. I don't think PS5 sooner rather than later or while PS4 is doing gangbusters will do much of any damage at all.
 

kappa_krey

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
630
I think they meant selling the PS5 for $499, but its production costs being $700 (because it's the latest greatest tech etc).

So what they now make from PS+ could support that kind of loss per unit sold. It's quite the risk to take.


Yeah, but then they'd just be selling for (effectively) at-cost, instead of at-profit. IIRC PS4 was slightly profitable for Sony from the start, or only sold at a very small lost that was made up with a single game purchase, let alone extra peripherals like controllers, etc.

PS+ might be bringing in lots of profit for them, but not enough to eat $200 on each PS5 they sell, b/c that $200 would actually be a bit more than $200 when you add marketing/promotion/advertising costs, and whatever retailers get off of each unit that's sold (if they in fact do; not sure if that's the case), etc. That'd basically call for PS+ prices to raise noticeably, and that could turn off a lot of people, putting a dent into using that as a subsidizing method.

I'm assuming that HBCC and a reasonably size NAND pool is a given, whether the PS5 comes with 32GB of RAM or 24GB. So the size of the NAND pool would be dependent on the chosen capacity of RAM.

E.g. Going with 32GB of RAM on a 256bit bus with 64GB of NAND vs. 24GB of GDDR6 on a 384bit bus with 128GB NAND.

What type of NAND are we talking, here? MLC or SLC? I'm assuming MLC because that's the only way they could get that much in quantity for a $400 system without losing mountains on the BOM. But MLC NAND chips have much faster degradation rates and less precision than SLC ones.
 

2Blackcats

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,119
What would really screw Microsoft is if Sony decided to go hard and capitalise on the success of the PlayStation division and the evergreen revenue of PS+. If Sony went for a 2019 release at $499 with a unit cost of $700 or so (sounds silly but the launch PS3 was more extreme than that with no PS+, maybe they could mention the unit cost in the ads and market it as a kind of console of the future), along with enhanced BC and everything, I'm not sure what MS could do. They'd have to either launch at the same time (probably not a good look so soon after the 1X) with what would probably be a weaker console as I'm not sure the Xbox division could afford a similar loss, or wait a year or two, which is probably even worse. It would be a risky strategy, but it would put their competitor in a trap not many could get out of.

That would be a bold but excellent move. Especially if they did it next year or early 2020.

What was the loss on the PS4? Nearly 100? Not beyond the Realm of possibility.

I think Sony probably don't see Microsoft as big enough competition to try something so disruptive though.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,904
Australia
And bleed away all the PS4 profits just like how selling PS3 at a loss bled away all the PS1/PS2 profits? I think Sony would rather not go through that again, just saying...

Not the same situation. PS3 launched at $599 with a $250 loss, 1 year after its competitor, before PS+ existed, and had a bunch of issues with a lack of games and difficult development. This hypothetical PS5 would launch at $499 with a $200 loss (after 14 years of inflation, too), most likely 1 year before its competitor, with a simple and easy design and plenty of games, and PS+ making plenty of revenue.

Yeah, but then they'd just be selling for (effectively) at-cost, instead of at-profit. IIRC PS4 was slightly profitable for Sony from the start, or only sold at a very small lost that was made up with a single game purchase, let alone extra peripherals like controllers, etc.

PS+ might be bringing in lots of profit for them, but not enough to eat $200 on each PS5 they sell, b/c that $200 would actually be a bit more than $200 when you add marketing/promotion/advertising costs, and whatever retailers get off of each unit that's sold (if they in fact do; not sure if that's the case), etc. That'd basically call for PS+ prices to raise noticeably, and that could turn off a lot of people, putting a dent into using that as a subsidizing method.

It's not just about PS+, it's also all the profit they make from games (digital especially), and the most important thing - the head start. Launching a year ahead of Microsoft would be tremendous for them, especially in the market position they're in now, and combined with a huge amount of power and full BC, they might even pull in a bunch of Xbox diehards. The impression i got from the people here is that 2019 would be too early and too weak, so I thought about how far Sony could reasonably push the envelope in terms of power and cost to get it done.

What's dynamic extrapolation? Some form of temporal reconstruction?

Lol, just something I made up, not sure how feasible it would be. Basically like dynamic resolution, except instead of dropping the resolution, you would extrapolate more of the pixels in the way checkerboard rendering does. Checkerboard extrapolates 50%, this would extrapolate different percentages of the pixels as needed - probably 10/20/30/40/50%. Whether it would actually be better than normal dynamic resolution, I can't be sure.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
Honestly I'm kind of more interested in how they handle PSVR2.

PS5 is not going to be some shocking package. It'll be a black rectangular cuboid that costs four hundred dollars and comes with a gamepad that looks a lot like the Dualshock 4.

PSVR2 though? Next-gen motion controls, the headset itself, a breakout box, maybe lasers for positioning, and how much is that package going to launch at? Four or five hundred dollars? Are they going to launch at the same time? Are they going to launch a year later but announce it at the same time? Will PS5 support PSVR1 before PSVR2 hits?

Could go anywhere with it.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,904
Australia
Sony are never going to take a $200 hit with PS5. Crazy talk.

Oh, you're almost certainly right. A year-long head-start with no sacrifices in power would be very effective, though.

Honestly I'm kind of more interested in how they handle PSVR2.

PS5 is not going to be some shocking package. It'll be a black rectangular cuboid that costs four hundred dollars and comes with a gamepad that looks a lot like the Dualshock 4.

PSVR2 though? Next-gen motion controls, the headset itself, a breakout box, maybe lasers for positioning, and how much is that package going to launch at? Four or five hundred dollars? Are they going to launch at the same time? Are they going to launch a year later but announce it at the same time? Will PS5 support PSVR1 before PSVR2 hits?

Could go anywhere with it.

I'm really excited for PSVR2 as well. I really hope they manage to pull off a 4K internal screen.

Something I also want for PSVR and its successor, though not likely, would be high-fps 3D modes for various games, to be used in Cinematic Mode. You could drop the resolution - unnoticeable as the screen res in Cinematic Mode is already low - and redirect the power to rendering in 3D (which the PSVR does perfectly) and pushing the framerate as high as it can go. A lot of games could really benefit from that alternative experience.
 

Jessmo24

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
753
Can we get a separate thread discussing what the next x-box will be like? Like the thread above mentioned Sony has a template for success. The ps5 will be very predictable. I'd like a spin off thread on a Microsoft machine.
 

RoboPlato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,815
I think we'll only see $499 if it's a 2019 release and Sony feels like putting a few cross gen games out to continue supporting the PS4. That would keep the specs solid for the gen, give them an early start for the gen, would allow them to keep making money from the ecosystem, and then they could drop the price when MS launches. 2020 and they'll definitely aim for $399
 

Silencerx98

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,289
Sorry to steer the topic from marketing and hardware topic for a bit, but I thought about bringing up game graphics tech. You know, the reason all of us want a next gen system :P

This gen saw a huge bump in scene complexity overall compared to the last. Levels are lavishly decorated with a variety of assets and most assets finally have enough geometry to look grounded within the scene. For instance, pipes are well rounded and outdoors are filled with patches of grass compared to barren landscapes last gen. However, devs can take geometric complexity to the next step next gen and I think a proven solution is adaptive tessellation. I can't find any pics at the moment, but Star Wars Battlefront and DICE's succeeding games have all used it and it looks great. Rocks especially have a rounded, bumpy shape. So, do you guys think adaptive tessellation will be commonplace next gen or will shader techniques like parallax occlusion mapping be used to simulate bumps at a lower cost?
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,151
United Kingdom
Why can't they just stack chips at 5nm until we figure things out. Multicores, double stacks. 5nm chips will eventually be in abubdance.

3D stacking DRAM memory dies and 3D stacking microprocessor dies are two completely different animals. To date there is not a single product on the market that I know of that 3D stacks ASICs.

The thermal dissipation problem is still unsolved at this stage and the costs issues—regarding multiple dies (the cost per die will still be the same), as well as manufacturing complexities and production yields dropping off a cliff with each stacked die, means stacked ASICs are probably still over a decade away, if they'll ever really be economically feasible.

What type of NAND are we talking, here? MLC or SLC? I'm assuming MLC because that's the only way they could get that much in quantity for a $400 system without losing mountains on the BOM. But MLC NAND chips have much faster degradation rates and less precision than SLC ones.

The differences in MLC and SLC usable life have closed considerably over the last few years. MLC Flash drives are significantly more reliable than they used to be. So I see MLC flash at the aforementioned capacities not being a problem for a console with a 4-8 year lifespan.

Console vendors have to option to go SLC at lower densities though, if they choose. I guess, again it depends on which way they want to go. I'm sure something like 16 or 32GB of SLC NAND flash with HBCC would have just as much utility in reducing load times and improving GPU VRAM usage.

Sony are never going to take a $200 hit with PS5. Crazy talk.

Agreed. It's not even worth speculating on it, imho.
 

Kyoufu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,582
Honestly I'm kind of more interested in how they handle PSVR2.

PS5 is not going to be some shocking package. It'll be a black rectangular cuboid that costs four hundred dollars and comes with a gamepad that looks a lot like the Dualshock 4.

PSVR2 though? Next-gen motion controls, the headset itself, a breakout box, maybe lasers for positioning, and how much is that package going to launch at? Four or five hundred dollars? Are they going to launch at the same time? Are they going to launch a year later but announce it at the same time? Will PS5 support PSVR1 before PSVR2 hits?

Could go anywhere with it.

I really hope they can figure out a wireless solution for PSVR2. If they do, I'll jump in at any price.

They probably won't need a breakout box, PS5 should have the juice to do all of it itself.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,904
Australia
I really hope they can figure out a wireless solution for PSVR2. If they do, I'll jump in at any price.

They probably won't need a breakout box, PS5 should have the juice to do all of it itself.
I really hope they can figure out a wireless solution for PSVR2. If they do, I'll jump in at any price.

They probably won't need a breakout box, PS5 should have the juice to do all of it itself.

The HTC Vive models have that separate wireless adapter coming later this year, right? If the tech is that close now, I would think it would be ready - and cheaper - for PSVR2 when it comes around.
 
Oct 27, 2017
617
They said if you buy one game, they're breaking even. Their first party cut of a game is less than ten dollars, so yeah, I'd say they basically sold them at cost.

You mean third party, if they sell an exclusive game from them they gain much more than $10 (but yeah for a game like Battlefield 4 for example the royalties are like $8 to be exact I believe).

So they didn't lose $60 per unit at launch, more like ~$10.
 

StuBurns

Self Requested Ban
Banned
Nov 12, 2017
7,273
You mean third party, if they sell an exclusive game from them they gain much more than $10 (but yeah for a game like Battlefield 4 for example the royalties are like $8 to be exact I believe).

So they didn't lose $60 per unit at launch, more like ~$10.
I said their first party cut, as in the cut a first party gets from the sale of a third party game. Badly worded though, admittedly.
 
Oct 27, 2017
617
I said their first party cut, as in the cut a first party gets from the sale of a third party game. Badly worded though, admittedly.

Oh got it got it, sorry.

It's funny how it feels like this gen started like yesterday, it's a feeling I didn't have at the same period for PS3/360, I don't know why (maybe because we still didn't have a true Rockstar game, just got a Gran Turismo, barely got 1 Naughty Dog game and a half). I feel like last gen the big studios had way more outputs than this gen (can you believe that last gen Rockstar released GTA IV, Red Dead, Max Payne and GTA V and still haven't released anything this gen besides a port of V?).
 

Darkstorne

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,856
England
Sorry to steer the topic from marketing and hardware topic for a bit, but I thought about bringing up game graphics tech. You know, the reason all of us want a next gen system :P

This gen saw a huge bump in scene complexity overall compared to the last. Levels are lavishly decorated with a variety of assets and most assets finally have enough geometry to look grounded within the scene. For instance, pipes are well rounded and outdoors are filled with patches of grass compared to barren landscapes last gen. However, devs can take geometric complexity to the next step next gen and I think a proven solution is adaptive tessellation. I can't find any pics at the moment, but Star Wars Battlefront and DICE's succeeding games have all used it and it looks great. Rocks especially have a rounded, bumpy shape. So, do you guys think adaptive tessellation will be commonplace next gen or will shader techniques like parallax occlusion mapping be used to simulate bumps at a lower cost?
Tessellation would indeed be amazing. I was hoping it would be a big thing this gen but the power wasn't quite there. You can move so much processing weight off the CPU and on to the GPU for mesh complexity when you build your environments specifically for tessellation. And if we're looking at mid gen refreshes with bigger GPUs becoming standard, this approach makes a lot of sense.

Something else I'd like to see is a solution for LOD shadows. No game I've seen yet has them. You can play something like Skyrim, Horizon ZD, The Witcher 3, and gaze out over a beautiful vista at sunset. That sun casts no shadows in the distance though. In reality it's a beautiful time of day specifically because of the long landscape shadows that get cast, but in games distant landscapes are just completely flat. There's a big tech gap here begging to be solved.
 

bulletyen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
1,309
Oh got it got it, sorry.

It's funny how it feels like this gen started like yesterday, it's a feeling I didn't have at the same period for PS3/360, I don't know why (maybe because we still didn't have a true Rockstar game, just got a Gran Turismo, barely got 1 Naughty Dog game and a half). I feel like last gen the big studios had way more outputs than this gen (can you believe that last gen Rockstar released GTA IV, Red Dead, Max Payne and GTA V and still haven't released anything this gen besides a port of V?).

This is my concern as well. As AAA games get more visually complex and expectations rise, team size and dev times expand.

If Devs are only able to put out 1 or two games this gen, what's gonna happen next gen? It's certainly not going to get better. Something's gotta give.

People keep complaining about hardware holding us back when the real bottleneck is that the speed developers can create content at a humane pace have hit the ceiling.

Why do you think talks of horrible working conditions and overtime is so widespread? Why are we getting so many remasters even so late into this gen? Tech has outstripped human ability and everyone is suffering for it.
 
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Silencerx98

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,289
Tessellation would indeed be amazing. I was hoping it would be a big thing this gen but the power wasn't quite there. You can move so much processing weight off the CPU and on to the GPU for mesh complexity when you build your environments specifically for tessellation. And if we're looking at mid gen refreshes with bigger GPUs becoming standard, this approach makes a lot of sense.

Something else I'd like to see is a solution for LOD shadows. No game I've seen yet has them. You can play something like Skyrim, Horizon ZD, The Witcher 3, and gaze out over a beautiful vista at sunset. That sun casts no shadows in the distance though. In reality it's a beautiful time of day specifically because of the long landscape shadows that get cast, but in games distant landscapes are just completely flat. There's a big tech gap here begging to be solved.
Shadow draw distances are largely dependant on CPU power as well, actually. I could be mistaken here, so someone please correct me if wrong, but shadows cast by assets have to issue draw calls from the CPU, much like the assets themselves, so the further you draw shadows, the more workload for the CPU. The easiest solution is utilizing a far more powerful CPU next gen and with Ryzen 2/3, hopefully that's the case and shadow draw distances stretch as far as the eye can see. On the other hand, this is just a suggestion, I have no idea how viable or flexible it is. Shadows could be baked into the environment and don't necessarily represent the shadow caster but transition into dynamic shadows as the player gets closer. I can see it being pretty jarring, though
 
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