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Realistically, how is Microsoft expected to compete with Sony next generation? Can they?
- Thread starter VinFTW
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Here is a difference if the TF performance scaled perfectly with resolution:
These are lossless pics uploaded to lensdump which doesn't compress:
(from this video: https://youtu.be/DUvqIlkLbkk)
I can see it but man the difference is laughably small.
Most won't see it if they don't zoom in hard.
If that's the difference then i applaud sony going with a quicker ssd.
Well, you could argue that Sony wants the users into their ecosystems just as much as Microsoft does.
Of course they do. They can achieve that without pricing their console lower than the competition though. You're already seeing it with the big budget timed exclusives (and content), and showing off a lot of great 1st party titles
It's difficult for them to compete directly with software right now, because they don't have the pedigree among their studios. It might in theory take 4 years for a studio to make a good game, but it takes a decade or longer for a studio to get into a consistent flow of producing top quality titles.
If you look at studios like Naughtydog, while they've always had a good track record they were experimenting a lot on the PS2 with the Jak and Daxter series, with some mixed results. The first Uncharted is also a fairly mediocre game. All of those games, Jak 1-3, Uncharted 1-4, it took up until Uncharted 2 for Naughtydog to really figure out what their studio was good at and begin to harness that into consistent output.
If you look at Microsoft's acquisitions, with studios like Compulsion Games, or even the studios they've built themselves, like 343 you'll see the same thing. You can't simply put 200-400 people together and expect their first game to be a smash hit. It takes years of successes and failures, years of iteration on internal creative processes to get a studio into a position where they're creating consistently good games.
For that reason, it's very difficult for Microsoft to compete right now, but it's not about competing right now. For Microsoft if they want to stay a strong competitor in this market they needed to recognise the importance of high quality first party software, and they needed to make the right moves to ensure that their studios are able to grow.
For folks expecting big things from Microsoft's internal studios in the near future, I think you're going to be tremendously disappointed with their software output. But it's not about that, Microsoft need to simply focus on sustaining consistent profitability (with things like gamepass) while nurturing these studios to develop the best games they can. Studios like Compulsion Games, The Coalition, The Initiative and Rare still need to be afforded the freedom to fail, before they will find consistent success.
So that's the issue right now, you can't magically force your relatively new studios to produce good games. Some of these studios haven't been able to work on anything but very specific IPs, in very specific ways (Halo and The Coalition) and moving from those titles to find success elsewhere is going to be a challenge. For Microsoft at this stage, it shouldn't be about 'competing', they can't compare the output of these studios against the likes of Naughtydog and expect similar results at this stage. It needs to beshould be about putting in the work to nurture these talented teams so that in the future , in 10 years time, they have a consistent portfolio, and then they can put their best foot forward.
As far as third party exclusivity goes, it's just a bandaid for them at the moment, and an expensive one at that, because an exclusivity deal on the platform with the lowest market share has very low proportionate value for the developer. Any exclusivity deals that Microsoft seek out, Sony can compete with at a lower cost, because signing console exclusivity to Sony's platform doesn't lose you more than half of your audience. I think they need to focus on these types of deals less, and as I say, more on nurturing those internal studios.
So, it's not really about competing for Microsoft right now. It's about building up their studios while finding consistent profitability. Ideally they can sustain their market share, but most importantly by leveraging services like gamepass to increase household revenue into their ecosystem they can invest more and more into their internal studios so as to gradually strengthen their first party portfolio. If this is strategy is sustained, then in the future they will be able to compete more directly, and grow their market share more considerably with consistent must-have first party software output. But that isn't happening in the next few years.
If you look at studios like Naughtydog, while they've always had a good track record they were experimenting a lot on the PS2 with the Jak and Daxter series, with some mixed results. The first Uncharted is also a fairly mediocre game. All of those games, Jak 1-3, Uncharted 1-4, it took up until Uncharted 2 for Naughtydog to really figure out what their studio was good at and begin to harness that into consistent output.
If you look at Microsoft's acquisitions, with studios like Compulsion Games, or even the studios they've built themselves, like 343 you'll see the same thing. You can't simply put 200-400 people together and expect their first game to be a smash hit. It takes years of successes and failures, years of iteration on internal creative processes to get a studio into a position where they're creating consistently good games.
For that reason, it's very difficult for Microsoft to compete right now, but it's not about competing right now. For Microsoft if they want to stay a strong competitor in this market they needed to recognise the importance of high quality first party software, and they needed to make the right moves to ensure that their studios are able to grow.
For folks expecting big things from Microsoft's internal studios in the near future, I think you're going to be tremendously disappointed with their software output. But it's not about that, Microsoft need to simply focus on sustaining consistent profitability (with things like gamepass) while nurturing these studios to develop the best games they can. Studios like Compulsion Games, The Coalition, The Initiative and Rare still need to be afforded the freedom to fail, before they will find consistent success.
So that's the issue right now, you can't magically force your relatively new studios to produce good games. Some of these studios haven't been able to work on anything but very specific IPs, in very specific ways (Halo and The Coalition) and moving from those titles to find success elsewhere is going to be a challenge. For Microsoft at this stage, it shouldn't be about 'competing', they can't compare the output of these studios against the likes of Naughtydog and expect similar results at this stage. It needs to beshould be about putting in the work to nurture these talented teams so that in the future , in 10 years time, they have a consistent portfolio, and then they can put their best foot forward.
As far as third party exclusivity goes, it's just a bandaid for them at the moment, and an expensive one at that, because an exclusivity deal on the platform with the lowest market share has very low proportionate value for the developer. Any exclusivity deals that Microsoft seek out, Sony can compete with at a lower cost, because signing console exclusivity to Sony's platform doesn't lose you more than half of your audience. I think they need to focus on these types of deals less, and as I say, more on nurturing those internal studios.
So, it's not really about competing for Microsoft right now. It's about building up their studios while finding consistent profitability. Ideally they can sustain their market share, but most importantly by leveraging services like gamepass to increase household revenue into their ecosystem they can invest more and more into their internal studios so as to gradually strengthen their first party portfolio. If this is strategy is sustained, then in the future they will be able to compete more directly, and grow their market share more considerably with consistent must-have first party software output. But that isn't happening in the next few years.
Several pages ago, Matt asked this for Dusk, after he said that stuff about multiplatforms running way better on the XSX, price, etc:
Did Dusk answered anything?
Did Dusk answered anything?
Years ago the arguments would have been the console needs to be more powerful than the others, cheaper ways to get more games and pushing for consumerfriendly tactics.
Now xbox does all that. The console is more powerful, gamepass is a godsend, crossplay is championed by MS and crossowning with pc aswell.
Only first party games are missing and MS is really trying.
I mean sony doesn't have one own Multiplayer first party titke that is successful instead they moneyhat stuff.
Thing is just Playstation right now is more popular on a grand sclae and that's it. Dethroning something like this is hard.
LoL, fortnite and CoD have a lot of games that are like them with fresher ideas and stuff, but you can't just beat the most popular thing in its genre
Now xbox does all that. The console is more powerful, gamepass is a godsend, crossplay is championed by MS and crossowning with pc aswell.
Only first party games are missing and MS is really trying.
I mean sony doesn't have one own Multiplayer first party titke that is successful instead they moneyhat stuff.
Thing is just Playstation right now is more popular on a grand sclae and that's it. Dethroning something like this is hard.
LoL, fortnite and CoD have a lot of games that are like them with fresher ideas and stuff, but you can't just beat the most popular thing in its genre
Over talks Dusk supposedly had with people in the know which he can't prove one or the other? Be my guest. We might as well make threads on an unsubtantiated rumour.
No
First-party titles are first-party titles and while 3-4 AAA games a year is respectable it's still pretty standard fare. It should be a great time in the generation for those who have been waiting to see the fruits of XGS. Seeing 2022/2023 being highlighted just makes me wonder what the heck MS will rely on for the first 1.5-2 years. I would expect Forza Horizon 5 to be out before 2022, so that's probably one of their key 2021 titles.
Their 'Playstation Advantage' line may bite them in the ass then if their games perform noticeably worse. That's the kind of shit fanboys will meme the fuck out of on Social Media
Thing is when you look at the business aspects it don't make sense .
He is saying MS have more wiggle room to take a lost on hardware because of GP ( which not making money right now ) than Sony does which is why they would go lower .
But if you look at things Sony has as much room or even more and if they lock people into there ecosystem people will also buy things for years to come.
For eg Sony first party game sales alone could cover this yeah lost if the sell about 5 million console ( not counting PS+ , there DD store etc etc )
Why would it ?
The will market it around content and how the game perform don't matter if it's something the other systems don't have.
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Difference is only in resolution, but the power of XSX and PS5 can give better details if devs want. Both will focus on 4K unfortunately, but I hope each console has their exclusive game with great details (like TLOU2 on PS4).
Pray that the game struggling at 1080p/60 on PS5 has no Lockhart version.
+100m PS4 sold. Less than half have PS Plus. A lot of people just play occasionally. If there's a Xbox Series S, those people that just want a console or want to play F2P games and etc. will buy that Xbox.
Exclusives sell consoles, but there are also people that don't care about power, games, etc. and just want to play in a damn console. Xbox Series S and free multiplayer on F2P games it's a way for selling more and have more users.
Two things I'd say about a next-gen console "struggling to do 1080 60fps"
1. How would someone drop that info and not think it's a huge bombshell?
2. Devs sound like they're putting last gen in the bin quickly, in fact pitting anything lower than a 10Tflops in the bin.
1. How would someone drop that info and not think it's a huge bombshell?
2. Devs sound like they're putting last gen in the bin quickly, in fact pitting anything lower than a 10Tflops in the bin.
How are we expecting Series X to be cheaper?
Wasn't it reported that Sony were ramping up PS5 production? surely the more you produce the cheaper it gets. I think both will be around the same price with the PS5DE slightly cheaper.
Wasn't it reported that Sony were ramping up PS5 production? surely the more you produce the cheaper it gets. I think both will be around the same price with the PS5DE slightly cheaper.
I think you make a reasonable point in the case of a studio like Compulsion, or The Initiative... but you're mentioning other studios that are not new. 343i and The Coalition have both developed two games already. Rare are celebrating their 35th anniversary. Obsidian and inXile have been around for 17 years.
Now, it's possible that some of those studios staffing up for bigger game development will come with it's own risks and pitfalls, but it's not like these are newborn babies learning to crawl before they can walk, lol.
I haven't forgotten anything. I'm a Sony fan, just not a fanboy. Just like with the PS3, we should be able to criticize them.
If some devs are saying the difference is bigger than what that 18 % difference might suggest, the only logical conclusion to that would be that the variable clocks on the PS5's GPU are the culprit. The amount of CU's as well, 36 vs 52 - That's a 44 % (!) difference, eventhough the XSX's are clocked significantly lower.
But I'll stop derailing the thread. If games designed specifically with the PS5 in mind can somehow produce games that aren't possible anywhere else - Maybe it's a worthy compromise. A cheaper, more powerful XSX is a problem for me personally though. That's definitely a significant way for MS's to counter.
While I take this point, looking at that list of 7 titles I posted for 2022/2023, not many of the dev teams would really fall into that category. We've got Obsidian, Ninja Theory and Rare who all have a tonne of experience under their belts, then there's Playground who is almost guaranteed to knock it out of the park with Forza.
Playground's second team on Fable is an unknown quantity, as are Undead Labs with a bigger budget and the Initiative, but even then there should be plenty to look forward to.
With PS4 it's like they almost completely skipped trying with online MP games of their own. It really does seem like they're looking to at least try and change that for PS5, bringing a range of MP titles similar to how they did on PS3.
- Destruction AllStars.
- 2nd MP game from Guerrilla.
- TLoU II Factions MP.
- Gran Turismo 7.
- SOCOM (only a rumour).
It's a start and if they strike it right this could be another advantage in that they offer good SP and MP of their own, and also have the exclusive content from third-parties.
U will see the first vs in 3 months . If resolution difference is less than 18% then ps5 punches about its weight . If resolution difference is more than 20% then variable frequency is hindering it.
Simple .so 3 more months till assassin creed valhalla VS video or call of duty VS video .
As for prices u know those in 2 weeks from both
I agree with a lot of what you said but the problem for Microsoft has always been they directly compete against Sony. Nintendo found out years ago they simply cannot or don't want to and rely far more on their own ip's to keep them relative. Microsoft and Sony have always fought over the same audience but it is the global brand that keeps Sony competitive even when they fail (such as the PS3).
It would take something monumental such as buying Ubisoft to turn the tides. I don't think it is wise to continue this pissing content with third party deals. All those games they had in their favor such as Bioshock, Mass Effect, Oblivion, they don't own those. Which brings us back to your point and that is nurturing your own studios. Which again like you said takes time.
So here we are about to start another genertion with Microsoft looking like they are not prepared. Momentum is key and Halo Infinite is doing the exact opposite. Throughout the whole current gen Microsoft has not created one new AAA ip that sold well where they can build on and all those resources put into Halo Infinite looks like wasted opportunity.
I don't know about a Forza. If Motorsport is being pushed back to 2021, then I can't see two Forza titles dropping in one year.
A Flight Sim port in 2021 seems likely to me.
Live Gold is required to any online game, while on Playstation you can play F2P games without PS Plus.
What I'm saying is that Microsoft might (and need to) do the same and allow F2P not requiring Live Gold (Halo Infinite Multiplayer, which is F2P, is already confirmed to not require Live Gold).
That's not been confirmed, heavily speculated on and rumoured, but not confirmed.
One thing Microsoft needs to do is clarify what the hell is going on with Xbox Live Gold. They just announced that Gold isn't going anywhere, but they also hiked the price really hard. When it costs €100/year to play online on Xbox and €60/year to play online on PS4/PS5, Xbox is not going to be a valid option for many.
No, the opposite has been confirmed. The Steam page for Halo Infinite specifically says that Gold is required on console.
Now seeing it that no. Big oof then, still hope that MS won't ask for Live Gold, it's stupid to ask it for F2P games.
There's so much people thinking MS won't get a bigger piece of cake this gen.
Let me tell you, you are not living in developing markets and you do not know how big those really are.
Xbox WILL grow their # of consoles sold. Why?
Cheaper Access to New Gen (Lockhart)
Launching globally at the same time, no tier bullshit.
Gamepass. In the US costs U$S15? In Argentina costs u$s4. The same applies to other markets. It's a steal.
Can Microsoft compete? Anyone asking this seriously is not thinking straight. It is Microsoft and you are all condemning it for one gen lost because of them.
Let me tell you, you are not living in developing markets and you do not know how big those really are.
Xbox WILL grow their # of consoles sold. Why?
Cheaper Access to New Gen (Lockhart)
Launching globally at the same time, no tier bullshit.
Gamepass. In the US costs U$S15? In Argentina costs u$s4. The same applies to other markets. It's a steal.
Can Microsoft compete? Anyone asking this seriously is not thinking straight. It is Microsoft and you are all condemning it for one gen lost because of them.
They said that Motorsport was in early development in July, so that stands out to me as a definite 2022 title.
FH5 in 2021, Motorsport in 2022.
Halo at launch, with FH5, Flight Sim and last-gen ports just doesn't seem like enough (and cause we're on the topic of how can Xbox compete with PlayStation) when compared to what PS5 is hauling. It's looking likely that we'll get 9 substantial first-party titles releasing in the first 12-16 months on that console. Maybe MS is holding back on some first-party announcements for the first year of the Series X.
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The thread title would be funny .
PS5 have problems doing 1080@60fps lol.
Mean while Dirt and others at higher res and doing 60fps.
Some were saying Sony would not sell any consoles this gen or drop out when they sold over 85 million in the last one .
Some people just say crazy things.
MS will always be able to compete if they want once the think losing the money early on worth the ROI later .
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I'd be surprised if we saw Horizon before Motorsport, Horizon builds on top of Forzatech, so you'd expect Playground to want to wait until Turn 10 had got the engine up and running. Plus, we've seen Motorsport but not Horizon. It'd be odd to show off the game that was further out first.
I don't know why MS would necessarily want XSX to be cheap. They have lockhart for that - I'd have thought they'd be more willing to subsidise that box for market share benefits than the 'halo' box of XSX which can potentially afford to be 499 as its more powerful etc.
JIM RYAN: You are looking at an industrial laser, which emits an extraordinary light not to be found in nature. It can project a spot on the moon, or, at closer range, cut through solid metal. I will show you. (Signals to position the laser.)
Games, Mr. Phil. All my life I've been in love with their fun, their brilliance, their divine sense of wonder. I welcome any 3rd party game that will increase my market share, which is considerable.
PHIL SPENCER: I think you've made your point, Jim. Thank you for the demonstration.
JIM RYAN: Choose your next witticism carefully Mr. Phil, it may be your last. The purpose of our 3 previous generations of consoles is now very clear to me. I do not intend to be distracted by another. Good night, Mr. Phil.
PHIL: Do you expect me to compete?
JIM RYAN: No, Mr. Phil, I expect you to die.
Games, Mr. Phil. All my life I've been in love with their fun, their brilliance, their divine sense of wonder. I welcome any 3rd party game that will increase my market share, which is considerable.
PHIL SPENCER: I think you've made your point, Jim. Thank you for the demonstration.
JIM RYAN: Choose your next witticism carefully Mr. Phil, it may be your last. The purpose of our 3 previous generations of consoles is now very clear to me. I do not intend to be distracted by another. Good night, Mr. Phil.
PHIL: Do you expect me to compete?
JIM RYAN: No, Mr. Phil, I expect you to die.
Factors suggesting FH5 won't be 2021
FH builds off Forzatech so motorsport normally goes first
Playground working on Fable (yes two teams but maybe they need to prioritise Fable)
We've not seen anything of FH in MS events
FH released more recently
FH4 being updated around XSX launch suggests not to expect FH5 soon
Spencer's comments about two years cross gen suggesting no XSX-only until 2H 2022
I think 343 are still there and their new trailer is showing that. So that's a big studio in the position I described, and it's their flagship studio really. I think Playgrounds new studio is in the same position, I think Compulsion are in that position, Undead Labs too and I think the Coalition will be in that position if they ever step away from Gears of War. I think Rare are still growing too, Sea of Thieves wasn't exactly a hit on release, and they've turned it around which is great, but I don't think they're in a position where they have a reputation for putting out consistent high quality titles.
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