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Mr.Deadshot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,285
I saw a thread earlier this week talk about Switch third party, I do think we'll see more day and date Switch releases down the line as devs will be developing for it day one.
Not for big AAA productions. Especially not when PS5 and Xbox 4 are coming. The Switch is to weak to run most of these games and that's also the main reason why RDR2 isn't on Switch. Switch will still get all the indies and non-AAA japanese games though. And more ports of older games.
 

Simba1

Member
Dec 5, 2017
5,384
It's debatable if they could get RDR1 to run on the Switch. Even if they could, there's no way they would be able to get the simulations, draw distance, AI, etc. to work on that CPU.

I'm not sure if GTAV is even possible. The remastered version still runs at 30fps on current gen consoles, indicating that the game could be CPU bound. The Jaguar chips are pretty underpowered by today's standard but they are still more capable than the CPU in the Switch.




Are you just assuming these games are possible on the Switch or do you know something we don't. Especially when talking about RDR2, they would have to strip away so much that it would end up being a different game in many regards.

Are we again back to this shit "Switch dont have enough power for PS3/360 games"?

Every PS3/360 can easily run on Switch, and in almost all cases we talking about better graphics, higher resolution and better frame rates compared to same games on PS3/360.
Latest example is Diablo 3, on Switch game runs at from 1344x756 to 1600x900 px with much better frame rate compared to PS3/360, where on PS3/360 same game runs at 1120x584 px with worse frame rate.
Saying that last gen games like RDR1 or even GTA5 are not possible on Switch is crazy.


I was talking about GTAV, and we had reliable informations from Resetera members that game was in develpment for Switch but thats most likely shelved because current price and size of Switch carts.
 

Hugare

Banned
Aug 31, 2018
1,853
I clicked on this thread thinking "oh boy, let's see what he comes up with"

But Reggie sidestepped really well. I mean, that's not the reason why it's not on Switch, but at least the answer was believable
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
That's a nice way of saying our system has no hope in running this game so that's why it's not on it.



Problem with the streaming route is the latency it introduces. There are already plenty of complaints about the unresponsive controls when playing locally, add on another ~70ms of lag and that could be a major problem. Even streaming isn't an ideal situation for all games yet.



It's debatable if they could get RDR1 to run on the Switch. Even if they could, there's no way they would be able to get the simulations, draw distance, AI, etc. to work on that CPU.



I'm not sure if GTAV is even possible. The remastered version still runs at 30fps on current gen consoles, indicating that the game could be CPU bound. The Jaguar chips are pretty underpowered by today's standard but they are still more capable than the CPU in the Switch.



Crash appearing on the Switch doesn't prove anything though. It was a remaster of a game designed to run on the PS1. Even with all this in mind, the cut backs were still pretty severe on the Switch. Even with these cut backs there are still performance issues we don't see on other platforms.



Are you just assuming these games are possible on the Switch or do you know something we don't. Especially when talking about RDR2, they would have to strip away so much that it would end up being a different game in many regards.
The Switch CPU is a lot more powerful than CPUs in last gen consoles though. It has a lot more RAM too. In fact, Cortex A57 cores have higher IPC than Jaguar cores, an A57 core at 1GHZ is roughly equivalent to a Jaguar core at 1.6GHZ, and the amount of L2 cache per core is the same. The Switch has about the same per-thread performance as the current gen consoles (Povided modern code is used) and about half the multicore performance if perfect threading is assumed. (Or more if the game scales poorly across multicore setups)
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,660
Not sure what they have in common, but RDR2 is almost 100GB on PS4/XB1. Doom is something like 60GB with the level creator patch.
Last time I gave it a check, Doom on PC was around 90 GB and nearly 70GB on PS4.

Doom being a linear game doesn't factor in the discussion when purely talking about file sizes. That guy everyone, including yourself, is quoting ..isn't wrong. If they can manage to cram that onto switch then it's possible to cram RDR2's data too. Whether it'll actually be able to run RDR2 in any form or not...that's a different story (I'm betting on not).
 

test_account

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,648
It's 100% fine if RDR2 is not on Switch, the real question is: where is GTA V?

That game released literally everywhere and sold huge numbers on every platforms, and if a game like Skyrim did good then GTA V would be huge on Switch as well.

And power definitively is not a problem right there, si Nintendo come on!
Maybe its because of GTA V Online? GTA V Online for PS3 and Xbox 360 stopped getting content update in 2015.


World persistence. There can be lots and lots of tamed dinosaurs and player-made objects that have to stay in the world in a consistent way. Many objects are destructible. The creatures around are persistent, as are all the objects.
The game logic has to be ready to keep up with this, and account for dozens of players on a single map that can be doing all those things at once. The engine can't easily flush things from memory, because many things are persistent and destructible, down to rocks you can pick up.
From what I see it doesn't succeed very well at this, being buggy and such, but the reason it's so buggy is because it's essentially Minecraft with modern graphics, and that's ambitious.
This (And very poor optimization) is probably also the reason it's the most demanding game out there.
In any case my point here is not to debate the merits of the game, but to say that it's much more demanding than RDR 2. Whether how demanding it is on every platform is justified or not is not my problem, the point is that it is. So RDR 2, being a lot less demanding and running a lot better on every platform, would also run a lot better on the Switch.
I see what you mean, but i dont think RDR2 is too much different here. You also have tons of NPCs and horses/animals etc.. Also, items and collectibles that can be picked up. I'm not sure about destructable objects besides fences. These are also things that are in older games as well, but it doesnt necessarily mean that newer games arent more demanding because of that in this area. I'm no expert on this at all, but i think animation system for example requires its share of CPU power, and the animation system is much more complex than what we see in ARK (or other older games for that matter). How the AI routine is programmed can also be more complex. All of these things can add up.

It might be possible to get RDR2 to run on the Switch, but it might require tons of work, and it might not be feasable because of that. ARK also runs on phones by the way. I just downloaded it on my Samsung Galaxy S7 to test, and it works fine it seems. Framerate is maybe around 20fps if i should guess. Not the best, but at least its playable (i only tested for like 1 minute, but it runs). So if it can run on my relatively old phone, i wonder how demanding the game really is.
 
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DrROBschiz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,508
I clicked on this thread thinking "oh boy, let's see what he comes up with"

But Reggie sidestepped really well. I mean, that's not the reason why it's not on Switch, but at least the answer was believable

Yeah I dont blame Reggie.

He must get stupid questions all the time

Its kind of crazy how people dont understand how this shit works in 2018

Yes the gap has been closing ever so slightly over time as components shrink and chipsets seek better power efficiency and lower profiles

But the reality of how a dedicated power supply and large cooling pf high end hardware compares to battery powered and thermal controlled devices is still a massive ravine

Wrap your head around it people. Some games just wont be possible on switch even IF it gets an ungraded system
 

noyram23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,372
If Doom can why not RDR2? Just decrease resolution to 240p, framerate to 15fps, turn off all the effects, include superfx within the microsd then pack in a keychain of tahiti so they can charge a Switch tax. Easy peasy, it's like pushing a (panic) button
 

GTAce

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,172
Bonn, Germany
People who say that they could just downgrage RDR2 are missing some key elements.
3D assets with their respective LODs, shaders, scripted events, mission design (enemies on screen, AI routines etc.), overall gameplay elements etc.
These are all things you have to consider. It's not just resolution, framerate and filesize. RDR2 has a massive scope and all these things can bring serious issues when downporting. Comparing this with a rather simple* game like DOOM is nonesense.
It's not just "can the Switch theoretically handle it" but also "how much work is it".

*Just talking about complexity, I loved DOOM.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,071
Is a severely gimped version possible on the Switch? Yes.
Is it feasible given the sales, time, development budget? Debatable.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
Maybe its because of GTA V Online? GTA V Online for PS3 and Xbox 360 stopped getting content update in 2015.



I see what you mean, but i dont think RDR2 is too much different here. You also have tons of NPCs and horses/animals etc.. Also, items and collectibles that can be picked up. I'm not sure about destructable objects besides fences. This is also things that are in older games as well, but it doesnt necessarily mean that new games arent more demanding because of that in this area. I'm no expert on this at all, but i think animation system for example requires its share of CPU power, and the animation system is much more complex than what we see in ARK (or other older games for that matter). How the AI routine is programmed can also be more complex. All of these things can add up.

It might be possible to get RDR2 to run on the Switch, but it might require tons of work, and it might not be feasable because of that. ARK also runs on phones by the way. I just downloaded it on my Samsung Galaxy S7 to test, and it works fine it seems. Framerate is maybe around 20fps if i should guess. Not the best, but at least its playable (i only tested for like 1 minute, but it runs). So if it can run on my relatively old phone, i wonder how demanding the game really is.
Ark on phones is a different game, it's kind of a remake. Switch version is a port of the console/PC versions, which again, go watch the DF videos for those. Ark is more demanding than RDR 2, by a mile. It runs much worse.
The real question is whether all versions should be re-done based on the mobile version.
 

DCBA

Member
Dec 12, 2018
1,057
Is there any current gen AAA third party open world game on switch?
I don't think so... the reason might be a combination of beeing the weakest console on the market, high prices for memory cards (>32 gb), (currently) the smallest install base and lacklustre online experience (games as a service concept (ubisoft games, gta V etc.))
 

Astandahl

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,029
Why are we talking about the first Red Dead Redemption? If R* was able to port it on other platforms it would already be on PC , PS4 and XB1.

It's clear that is a massive undertaking for the team for technical reasons.
 
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Majukun

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,542
it will be a problem for as long as nintendo decides to stay one step behind the opposition in terms of power..no matter how successful their console is,some games will never come becaue they need too much work to be ported, and that's an expense third party will never pay for.
 

New Fang

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,542
I actually think it's shitty for Reggie to tease Nintendo customers into thinking the Switch night get RDR2 at some later date. It's not happening.
 

DSP

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,120
They can't get RDR2 but they probably can get GTAV. That could be a decent selling game. There won't be a new GTA anytime soon either.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,259
It's 100% fine if RDR2 is not on Switch, the real question is: where is GTA V?

That game released literally everywhere and sold huge numbers on every platforms, and if a game like Skyrim did good then GTA V would be huge on Switch as well.

And power definitively is not a problem right there, si Nintendo come on!

GTA Online is what sells to this day, kind of another beast. could be pulled off on switch perhaps but that's another can of worms

GTA V standalone i dunno if there's a particular demand for it, and even then there'd be huge fuss over GTA:O exclusion
 
Jan 10, 2018
7,207
Tokyo
Is there any current gen AAA third party open world game on switch?
I don't think so... the reason might be a combination of beeing the weakest console on the market, high prices for memory cards (>32 gb), (currently) the smallest install base and lacklustre online experience (games as a service concept (ubisoft games, gta V etc.))

It's indeed, in my opinion, a combination of all these. Being the weakest console is however, still in my opinion, far from being the main lock preventing these games to come.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,660
Maybe its because of GTA V Online? GTA V Online for PS3 and Xbox 360 stopped getting content update in 2015.



I see what you mean, but i dont think RDR2 is too much different here. You also have tons of NPCs and horses/animals etc.. Also, items and collectibles that can be picked up. I'm not sure about destructable objects besides fences.
These are also things that are in older games as well, but it doesnt necessarily mean that newer games arent more demanding because of that in this area. I'm no expert on this at all, but i think animation system for example requires its share of CPU power, and the animation system is much more complex than what we see in ARK (or other older games for that matter). How the AI routine is programmed can also be more complex. All of these things can add up.

It might be possible to get RDR2 to run on the Switch, but it might require tons of work, and it might not be feasable because of that. ARK also runs on phones by the way. I just downloaded it on my Samsung Galaxy S7 to test, and it works fine it seems. Framerate is maybe around 20fps if i should guess. Not the best, but at least its playable (i only tested for like 1 minute, but it runs). So if it can run on my relatively old phone, i wonder how demanding the game really is.
It is different because it's not persistent.
The object you pick up and drop, will get reset to its default location once you leave the area. The objects you destroy, will magically be fixed when you leave the area and come back. The NPC and animals are atleast partially randomly generated who will just get replaced by another one in their absence, they basically don't exist when you aren't there. Infact, without a persistent world barely anything exists in the game outside of the place where you are at.
 

9-Volt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,892
I'm perfectly fine with a port of the first game. Playing the sequel, made me realize how the first one held up today. I really want to visit the first one if Take Two allows it to appear on Switch.
 

Nintendo

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,388
It is different because it's not persistent.
The object you pick up and drop, will get reset to its default location once you leave the area. The objects you destroy, will magically be fixed when you leave the area and come back. The NPC and animals are atleast partially randomly generated who will just get replaced by another one in their absence, they basically don't exist when you aren't there. Infact, without a persistent world barely anything exists in the game outside of the place where you are at.

Many NPC's are persistent. I've met random NPC's multiple times and they even remembered me. Most of them are randomly generated though.
 

Kage Maru

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,804
Are we again back to this shit "Switch dont have enough power for PS3/360 games"?

Every PS3/360 can easily run on Switch, and in almost all cases we talking about better graphics, higher resolution and better frame rates compared to same games on PS3/360.
Latest example is Diablo 3, on Switch game runs at from 1344x756 to 1600x900 px with much better frame rate compared to PS3/360, where on PS3/360 same game runs at 1120x584 px with worse frame rate.
Saying that last gen games like RDR1 or even GTA5 are not possible on Switch is crazy.


I was talking about GTAV, and we had reliable informations from Resetera members that game was in develpment for Switch but thats most likely shelved because current price and size of Switch carts.

Put down your pitchfork and relax, I'm not looking to start any shit. I didn't definitively say they weren't possible, I wondered if they were and said it could be debatable. I was purely coming from a utilization and simulation standpoint. Rockstar games usually are complex in terms of how the world simulation works, more than anything I recall seeing on the Switch. So I wasn't sure if it was a bit much for the 4 core, single threaded CPU in the Switch.

The Switch CPU is a lot more powerful than CPUs in last gen consoles though. It has a lot more RAM too. In fact, Cortex A57 cores have higher IPC than Jaguar cores, an A57 core at 1GHZ is roughly equivalent to a Jaguar core at 1.6GHZ, and the amount of L2 cache per core is the same. The Switch has about the same per-thread performance as the current gen consoles (Povided modern code is used) and about half the multicore performance if perfect threading is assumed. (Or more if the game scales poorly across multicore setups)

Correct, so if Rockstar games are heavily multithreaded, wouldn't that give merit to my question?
 

RestEerie

Banned
Aug 20, 2018
13,618
If they could fit DOOM 2016 on the Switch, they can fit Red Dead 2. It'd just be a vastly inferior experience with some SERIOUS graphical compromises.

Not this shit again.

Not every engine is equal.

Citing the Id tech games as an example every time that every game can be ported to the switch is just dumb.

You might as well said battlefield V with raytracing is possible for the switch too if they downgrade it enough.
 

Bitch Pudding

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,202
I mean, what do you want him to say? That was probably the best possible response considering.

Well, technically he was asked "That being said, when a game like Red Dead Redemption 2 comes out, is that something you're interested in having on the Switch?" So he might just have answered THAT question instead of delivering an explanation why that game isn't on their platform without addressing the elephant in the room which is the sheer lack of power for a game like RDR2.
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,775
Someone should ask Reggie how they plan to solve the game being 100GB and the switch carts being 32GB max, let alone that adding $10 or so to the cost of the game.

I think that's the biggest reason why it isn't there. Even if it could run it, that would still be a major roadblock

Asking people to download 70+GB just to start the game they paid $60 for (or more considering the profit margins on a 32GB Switch game would be less, so theyd need to charge more to make the same amount )
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
These two things don't mean the same. A game can be demanding without using hardware to its full potential. It is entirely possible that they got around certain optimization issues while porting (due to removing assets or post-processing effects etc.).
The rendering pipeline is identical. And again, the point is not because the hardware is not used to the full potential, the point is that it's demanding. It's making the CPU and the GPU compute stuff they wouldn't need to, but the point is that it does it.
The game has lower LoDs to ease CPU use, and generally smaller assets to fit in a 16GB cart. So would RDR 2. But if Ark made it intact, so can RDR 2.
Unlike a game like DOOM, which is pushing the same CPU load per frame on the Switch as it does on the other platforms, open world games can see many more cutbacks that are less appreciable at lower resolutions. Things like distant LoDs, distant frame animation, how close moving objects become active or even spawn, etc.

Put down your pitchfork and relax, I'm not looking to start any shit. I didn't definitively say they weren't possible, I wondered if they were and said it could be debatable. I was purely coming from a utilization and simulation standpoint. Rockstar games usually are complex in terms of how the world simulation works, more than anything I recall seeing on the Switch. So I wasn't sure if it was a bit much for the 4 core, single threaded CPU in the Switch.



Correct, so if Rockstar games are heavily multithreaded, wouldn't that give merit to my question?
The Switch is still much more powerful than last gen consoles. And it already has games with more complex simulation than the games Rockstar makes. Case in point, Ark. And as I said above, there is much more that can be trimmed from an open world game to reduce CPU load while having an acceptable sacrifice in quality.
 

Braaier

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
13,237
Well he wasn't saying it would appear on the switch. Just that it wasn't even a discussion point when RDR2 started development since the switch wasn't in the picture.

Plus, he goes on to say:

What happens moving forward? We'll see.

And he's right. Some big third party games have been announced for switch as well, others haven't. But it's trending in the right direction for Nintendo
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,888
Finland
Does he have any explanation for the missing PC port? =P

But yeah, I wouldn't have expected RDR2 come to Switch. I'm not expecting next GTA either, whenever that may be. Unless they are cooking up much beefier hardware. I guess that streaming could work? But isn't that Japan only so far, or am I completely wrong?
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,843
Brazil
His excuse was pretty great, all things considered. He managed to not be wrong no matter how impossible porting rdr2 to Switch would be, and i can just praise his great pr skills for that.
 

Bunkles

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,663
Not sure what ya'll wanted him to say. It was a pretty good answer / side step.