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Rian Johnson Explains Away One of the Big Complaints in The Last Jedi
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
It was definitely brought up in the OTs shortly after the movie came out. Not as much anymore. But I know there are people who had issues with it, even on this board.
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So her biggest flaws are having feels about not knowing her true parents, having hope that someone with conflicting emotions (moreso than Vader no less) would choose to do the right thing, and being briefly seduced by the dark side (before overcoming it quickly)?
Also, didn't she get the best of Luke in that quick bout? AND didn't she rek Kylo in their very first battle the moment she realized she could?
I don't mind the idea of a character who is an unstoppable force prodigy, but not so sure it makes for a compelling lead protagonist. Give me a main character who's arch is more than just a bland hero's journey.
He was trained in the ways of the force for the duration of two movies by TWO mentors. He had highs and lows as a character. He also went through some shit that kinda justified the bad attitude he had to overcome (that'll happen when your uncle and aunt caretakers are murdered, not one but TWO surrogate mentors/father figures also bite the dust, you learn your real dad is the second most evil person in the galaxy, etc). Rey wasn't trained for the duration of even ONE movie. She was just a Jedi master from second one apparently, and has few if any true negative personality traits. Self taught from the get go to be more powerful than Luke, Kylo, etc. What are the stakes?
I mean, I get it - she's a middle finger to men's rights bros. She's strong and got to that point herself. I love what she represents, but from a character development standpoint i don't see what's supposed to be compelling about her beyond being an icon or archetype that hasn't existed in SW until now. Not that Luke was ever a super interesting character either (not until TLJ at least).
when Luke was revealed to be an illusion, but before he was shown to be projecting from Ach-to, there was a second or two where I was secretly hoping that Luke had been dead this whole time (maybe even dead for years), and that Rey had been interacting with his Force Ghost.
In hindsight, it wouldn't have worked with everything else that happened in the movie, but in the moment, my mind was about to be blown. Then they showed luke on Ach-To projecting himself, and I felt dumb for not realizing that's what he was doing.
In hindsight, it wouldn't have worked with everything else that happened in the movie, but in the moment, my mind was about to be blown. Then they showed luke on Ach-To projecting himself, and I felt dumb for not realizing that's what he was doing.
Yeah Johnson is clearly just baiting Star Wars fanboys to endlessly debate the hybrid canon of the new movies. This is probably the most meta joke any director has ever played on an audience. The whole theme of the TLJ is to 'burn down the past' as in, don't hold your nostalgia so close to your heart that you become dogmatic about it. The past is flawed, the old Star Wars movies are flawed, the current is flawed, the canon of the past EU is a garbled mess and that's okay. Just don't act like it's been handed down to us by literal divinity.
One of the big turning points of the film is Luke/Yoda burning last jedi texts. For him to reference an obscure text literally named 'The Jedi Path' in defense of the movie is pretty antithetical to the central theme of the movie itself. He's literally trapping diehard fans in their own fanboy contradiction by saying 'well, yes, you can do force project in canon'.
The more I see Johnson respond to the haters, the more I like TLJ, it clearly has a lot to say about the cultural zeitgeist of the time, but it's also just a Star Wars movie.
This is one of the many disingenuous tricks defenders of the movie make. In fact this is almost Inception level deflection.
Firstly, nobody complained about Luke's projection power in itself. They complained that using it made no sense (why not just go to the planet?) and that his death was unsatisfying given how ambiguously it was shot, in terms of why Luke died and whether he knew that was what was going to happen.
Secondly, one of the main complaints about the prequels is that they didn't invent any new Force powers. Yoda and the Emperor should never have demeaned themselves to using lightsabers. The projection ability is new (as far as cinema goes, I've no idea what that book is in the tweets) but it's also boring and seems to offer no benefit over just going to the planet - or even just simply using a hologram.
I've never really understood this complaint. To me, growing up, the OT made it pretty clear that the main training with the Force has to do with belief. You see it multiple times in the OT, every time Luke fails, whether it is with Ben or Yoda, they mainly respond with telling him to simply believe. It was one of Luke's weaknesses, imo. He had trouble setting aside what he thought was realistically possible with what is actually possible with the Force. Once he realized its potential, he could stand toe to toe with anyone. Rey doesn't have this weakness, which imo, is fine. For whatever reason she decided to buy in and believe in the Force quicker than Luke which led to faster results. Not unusual at all.
Rey's weaknesses are more personal. We've spent two movies dealing with her having to discover that her parents aren't that important and her want for familial/parental/teaching figures in her life shouldn't be as important as she was making it seem (which she was trying to find with Han, Luke, and Kylo). She's now learning to be on her own and how to not feel the desire of needing a teacher in her life. I personally find that more interesting than watching her train for two movies like we did Luke.
I find them focusing on her personal weaknesses to be far more interesting than watching another 2 movie training session that we saw with Luke. It would had been boring if they did that again.
I still feel like some miss the point of Luke's training. The training was mainly about belief. Rey doesn't struggle with that part of the Force so its not too surprising that she is good from the get go. I'm fine with them spending more time on her figuring out how to survive without feeling the need to have her parents or to find that type of validation in Luke, Han, or Kylo. I like that character arc and am glad they decided to do something a bit different.
Luke pretty much had the perfect personal life in comparison growing up (before he found out who Vader was obviously). He was far more in tune with who he was as a person. They just have different weaknesses and strengths.
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It is a fictional universe, they can come up with the most convoluted theories to explain something just because.
Plenty of people did, I've seen a ton of people arguing that the film took too many liberties with force powers. I don't really see how you can say it doesn't provide a benefit, when it saved The Resistance.
People need to stop saying "nobody complained" about it when hundreds of us sifted through hundred-page TLJ threads with people complaining about it. The tweet you quoted is RESPONDING TO SOMEONE COMPLAINING ABOUT IT.
Rian Johnson explains a lot of things away. The "I can't be bothered thinking the rules of my time travel story through so let's break the fourth wall and tell you not to think about it" cafe scene in Looper was an eye roller. He's just not a good writer and it's only because it's Star Wars anyone is fighting his corner.
I'll never understand the complaints about Luke.
1) He doesn't go to the planet specifically because he can do this, and can stall the First Order / shake their shit up when they can't "kill" him. If he goes to the planet he literally dies in a barrage of gunfire.
2) He chose to die. I don't believe the projection killed him. Obi-Wan appears to get struck down by Vader, but "vanishes" before then. I think they both chose a similar fate to give way to a future generation of Jedi. It's legitimately not that weird, comparatively.
1) He doesn't go to the planet specifically because he can do this, and can stall the First Order / shake their shit up when they can't "kill" him. If he goes to the planet he literally dies in a barrage of gunfire.
2) He chose to die. I don't believe the projection killed him. Obi-Wan appears to get struck down by Vader, but "vanishes" before then. I think they both chose a similar fate to give way to a future generation of Jedi. It's legitimately not that weird, comparatively.
Nah, a lot of us were fans of Rian Johnson before this and thought he deserved the numerous awards he's gotten for screenwriting.
Rian Johnson's been an acclaimed and appreciated filmmaker since he came on the scene with Brick. All of his films are critically acclaimed. You're welcome to not like his work, or this film. But don't present your opinion as fact.
For the record, Looper DOES have an internal logic to it's time travel. Rian created rules for himself, and followed those rules. It's not explained in the film because that'd just be a bunch of nonsense exposition, not because the logic isn't there.
Also, how is it redeeming to let yourself be killed by the biggest threat to the galaxy, the threat you might have had a small part in making? As far as any character at the end of TLJ knows, Luke showed up and styled on Kylo Ren before dropping the mic and teleporting somewhere else. Would that not have a greater effect on rekindling the Rebellion than showing up as the most legendary Jedi in the galaxy to buy time to allow what's left of the resistance to escape before getting slaughtered moments later?
Movie was still a disappointment. And what book was he quoting from? Would be funny if it wasn't canon.
Yeah, like, the movie actually shows us the 'rules' that his time travel has by it happening and not by Bruce Williams taking out a sharpie and drawing graphics on a napkin. His younger self's questions about memory and whatnot are then seen later on and didn't need an exposition scene.
Let me clarify that obviously they had no intent to kill each other, but it was a sparring match and she bested him easily. Rey's biggest hurdle as a character is pinpointing the right moment to close her eyes and activate god mode in any battle.
So would going there. And that wouldn't have ended up with him him dying. (And yes, it is perfectly reasonable to assume he has some sort of super Force shield that could have achieved the same effect.)
Exactly. They could have literally written and taken the movie in any possible direction.
RJ can do whatever the hell he wants its his movie but he decided on the specific direction the movie went in. When people have to bend over backwards trying to explain and justify certain scenes it just shows how sloppily written the movie is.
How do you best someone easily when you don't hit them even once, the other person hits you once and is just dodging your attacks and then takes your weapon away and throws it?
It's why Rian Johnson's an award-winning writer and we're not. I can safely say I don't want whatever movie some other people wanted.
What part are people bending over backwards to defend? Most of the defense of the film is reaaalllyy easy, especially since some of the attacks (since when can Jedi do THIS?) show a lack of understanding of the prior films.
How would Luke have stalled and given the rebels enough time to flee by being there in person? He comes out to face Kylo but Kylo directs all the firepower at him, he would have been dead there. Instead Luke toys with Kylo and stalls (the same way Poe toys with Hux at the beginning to stall and give the rebels enough time to flee),
I don't know about other people, but pretty much anytime I've defended a specific scene or moment in the film, it's been using information that's already present in the film.
It's not Rian Johnson's job to make you pay attention.
Because he's Jedi Level 99 and has unlocked all the skill trees, OBVIOUSLY.
I can't wait to watch that scene again, at home where I can rewind.
I'm sure Luke immediately snapped into 'master observing promising pupil' mode. Like, I'm almost certain that's how Mark Hamill played it. I'm sure I saw it in his face and the way he held his body as he easily blocked Rey's swings and disarmed her.
It really looked to me like an old Kung-fu legend had wound up the student he was teaching, and was now letting her blow off steam by attacking him, as he watched and judged her attacking skills.
Bombers in space
Superman Leia
Force projecting
Could have come up with better scenarios for each one. The movie is intent on pulling those AHA PSYKE moments at every moment and undermines itself in the process. The movie actually opens with it.
AHA you thought Luke would be happy to see his lightsaber but PSYKE he doesnt give a shit.
AHA you thought Holdo was a cold hearted fool but PSYKE she's a hero.
AHA you thought Leia was done for but PSYKE she's Superman.
AHA you thought Snoke was boss but PSYKE he ain't shit.
AHA you thought Finn was about to go out on a blaze of glory but PSYKE its not about who you hate, its about who you love.
Im not a super Star Wars fanboy. Im just the average movie goer and some of these scenes bothered the hell out of me.
Expecting a dozen replies from fanboys telling me how wrong I am and my opinion ain't shit.
Dying for no real reason runs in his family. (His mother.)
Nah it's not really any big effort to address most of the things people have issues with. The movie pretty easily explains what's going on and set up a lot of the plot points that happen in the movie.
This feels like low quality trolling. Most of these aren't scenes that need justifying. Most of these are just gripes about personality or the outcome of a character not being satisfactory. Not about them making no sense.
Almost nobody had a problem with the projection.
He should explain away all the other real complaints instead.
He should explain away all the other real complaints instead.
Can you at least acknowledge that "training" has been a major theme in all the previous movies before episode VIII?
By noticing the lightsaber they are apparently not capable of being aware of and force-pulling it into your hard and putting it to their neck.
Okay, TBH, I just checked the tape again on youtube and on further inspection there does seem to be more evidence that Luke simply didn't care to exert the effort needed to defeat her/school her in combat and was just doing what he had to do to get back to his hut and drink his green milk in peace, so I'll go ahead & concede to the point that he was holding back.
But not besting the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy aside, I think overall my assertion of her character still stands.
Well you're kind of mocking the whole idea with your posts, equating anyone talking about it to a gamer obsessed with leveling up.
rey bested him easily????
what scende did you watch????????????????????
I liken it to having a fistfight with someone where you dodge all of their punches, but then they pull a gun on you. I guess technically you lost because they can now kill you, but you clearly had the upper hand.
The movie also justifies a scene with Luke milking an alien seacow, doesn't mean that scene had to be in the movie.
1. I've never seen a Star Wars where things don't fall down in space. Empire did it with the TIE Fighters in the asteroid (that Han/Leia were able to breathe in!), and did it with the destruction of a Star Destroyer, ROTJ did it with the Super Star Destroyer, and when X-Wings crash.
2. Leia used a force pull. I don't think there's
3. Jedi can force project. There's no explanation needed just as there was no explanation needed as to why lightning suddenly became a thing three movies into the series. The element allowed a heroic ending for Luke and phenomenal chemistry between Rey/Kylo. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but a lot right with it.
A lot of those aren't "psychs," nor is a twist in the movie a form of bad writing. I mean, we saw how powerful Snoke is, so we know he's a powerhouse. A person being powerful but dying has happened a lot in Star Wars. All the dead Jedi, for one. The Emperor in the OT as another.
Holdo having a plan and Poe acting brash goes with the character. Two failures for Poe before he learns to not be a hero at the end ("Everyone, pull back," paraphrasing what he tells to Finn) and learns to leave and fight another day. It's all in the story and all explained without the need to diagram it.
Saving who you love is what Holdo does for the Resistance, what Rose does for Finn and what Luke does for the Resistance.
Leia using the Force to save herself, again, is a twist in the movie, which is standard for film in general.
There are a lot of scenes which don't "have" to be in a movie, but considering the purpose of the scene was to be jarring and flip your expectations, it continues to prove how effective it was. If you were shocked, imagine what Rey thought.
Because that's the approach people are taking in how they talk about it. It's NOT a video game, it's not a simple calculation where x hours of training = y ability in the force. The Jedi Order is a religion, learning to tap into the force is a spiritual journey more akin to the journey one takes through faiths like Buddhism and Daoism. All of Luke's training in ESB is about learning to have faith, learning to believe, it's not about how to do the most bad-ass force tricks out there.