Everyone starts out as something politically then evolve as they get older. For someone like Bernie, a Full fledged Socialist softening his position a tad as they get older to become a Democratic Socialist seems perfectly logical.
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Sanders finally differentiating himself from Warren: "...she's capitalist through her bones. I'm not."
- Thread starter brainchild
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Everyone starts out as something politically then evolve as they get older. For someone like Bernie, a Full fledged Socialist softening his position a tad as they get older to become a Democratic Socialist seems perfectly logical.
That's what he's advertising, yes, but that's not actually where he wants to take things.
I'm not a socialist btw. I'm just saying that Sanders wants the US to go beyond capitalism. The Nordic coutnries are just very useful as a way to get people to become agreeable to socialism even though they're not socialist although everyone thinks they are.
Sanders doesn't mean this as a negative; it's her own words. He was asked to provide a distinction.
He's not as strong of a socialist as people seem to think. Almost nothing in his campaign about collective ownership, abolishing the for-profit model in government contract work, or abolition of private property systems (patents, etc.) which you would see if he were a full-bore socialist. I still like the guy, though.
He's not as strong of a socialist as people seem to think. Almost nothing in his campaign about collective ownership, abolishing the for-profit model in government contract work, or abolition of private property systems (patents, etc.) which you would see if he were a full-bore socialist. I still like the guy, though.
Aren't they? Are you sure you aren't just wrapping yourself in semantics here
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He's literally on record saying that the only reason that he doesn't call himself a socialist is because it would require too much explaining and he didn't want to spend half of his life doing that. That's it.
I disagree. He has a better voting coalition than Warren and is more well liked. There's no indication that his recent health issues have troubled his campaign.Psst... The electability argument doesn't really work here. Besides a guy who had a heart attack on the campaign is not going to look as attractive if he's actually up in a general.
President: general election Polls
The latest political polls and polling averages from FiveThirtyEight.projects.fivethirtyeight.com
They're mostly working class. And Bernie does good as relating to them.
Biden is seen as more of an average joe and Warren seems more elitist to them.
I understand but what he's advocating for right now is no different than countries Canada, Norway, Sweden and so on. Those aren't socialist countries.
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Oh for sure, but what he's advocating for and where he stands ideologically are two different things.
Thats not the case. His unfavorable polling is much higher than Warren's
Fine but what you're saying is he is softening his position publicly. By that act he is tying himself to his campaign agenda. It isn't like he is gonna walk into the White House and lift a hammer and sickle flag over it. He has to act as President how he stated he would.
The Nordic countries are Social Democracies. Basically, it's just regulated capitalism over there.
I'm a social democrat myself so I'm fine with that.
Sanders wants to go beyond that but he never will in his lifetime even if he were elected president twice in a row so you'd get as much progress on that front as you would if you elected Warren.
In practice, yes, he would be a social democrat. Philosophically, he isn't.
In practice and philosophy, Warren is a social democrat. That's the real difference.
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Right. We're in agreement.
Exactly.
This is honestly pathetic. I think Bernie and his team have comported themselves terribly this cycle.
Yea I feel you. But what he's advocating for right now has a more probability of happening then implementing a system that would align with how he feels ideologically. America being fully socialist will never happen.
"Hey Bernie, what's the difference between you and Warren?"
"Well here's what she herself says is the difference."
"Pathetic."
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I mean, I'd like to think it's possible in the distant future, but you're probably right.
she said it herself. What's terrible about differentiating himself? You want Warren to be protected in her crystal castle so much.
You shouldn't be surprised. This is what politics is, politicians throwing jabs at each other while their supporters throw javelins.
Good. I'm also a capitalist. Thanks for telling me who to vote for Bernie. Not that you stood a chance anyway.
honestly i think the collapse of the US will happen before then sadly
too many people are invested in keeping things the same (you can even see this in this topic)
If he had a coalition of support... he wouldn't be third in the primary.
That's literally what he says in the clip, though? To make your own decision. Jesus the bitterness thrown at this guy any time he opens his mouth. He could read the back of a cereal box and people would tell him he's an asshole for doing it.
Fox News - https://www.scribd.com/document/429686638/Fox-News-Poll-October-6-8-2019
YouGov - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/eb2rrb9ofh/econTabReport.pdf
Monmouth - https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/documents/monmouthpoll_us_100219.pdf/
The post above is way better. Fox and Monmouth both A rated pollsters by 538.
I'd say there is still a majority support for Bernie on Era. It's just the few vocal ones that are vicious towards him.
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That's not necessarily true. Current polls are based on methodology that assumes that certain people (and numbers of people) won't vote in the primary, and it wouldn't be the first time that the polls turned out to be wrong based on those assumptions.
If this is true on a national level (which is possible seeing how well Bernie is doing in fundraising on a national level), then being 3rd in the polls doesn't mean squat, and it would forever change political discourse about presidential primaries in America.
Warren's warts are on display. The DNA test, the former republican bullshit (seriously, why is it a black mark that a republican looked at hard data and shifted her perception?) It's not that you she's in a crystal castle; she's showing an ability to overcome her shortcomings.
Bernie is more to the left of Warren lol. Bernie has a bottom-up approach and Warren wants to keep existing systems but strengthen regulations. This quote I read off an article sums it up; "While Warren wants to be at the table with elites, arguing for progressive policies, Sanders wants to open the doors and let the public make the policy."
Elizabeth Warren hasn't been a Republican since the mid 1990s and Bernie fans still call her a Republican to this day... even if Bernie was now a social democrat and no longer a socialist (citation needed on that), how many decades would have to pass before people could no longer call him a socialist?
Does anyone think the Trump campaign wouldn't attack Bernie in the general election for his past comments on Cuba, the Soviet Union, etc. because "that was years ago"?
Okay, if it makes you feel better to tell yourself that, sure.
All the polling is wrong and Bernie Sanders will surge to victory as 18 year olds come out in droves to vote for him.
Which is why he won the primary in 2016.
All the polling is wrong and Bernie Sanders will surge to victory as 18 year olds come out in droves to vote for him.
Which is why he won the primary in 2016.
This poll in particular has really bad numbers for Bernie but even in more favorable polls he trails Warren in favorability
They're both mainstream social democrats who are ultimately TINA about capitalism, so this is pretty thin stuff.
When Bernie comes out demanding the end of private capital he'll be different.
When Bernie comes out demanding the end of private capital he'll be different.
Okay thanks I also got it from Grapes and Harvey.
These are numbers that Bernie can improve on. Still doesn't change the fact that Warren only has an 11% favorability rating outside the Dem base. She'd easily lose to Trump.
How does that even work?
That comes from a history of Bernie being obnoxious to the point of alienating his allies.
Being a capitalist is not the same as wanting the status quo as is.
Had Bernie done that he'd have remained an obscure politician nobody would pay attention to. He's riding the line as it is.
The fact these polls even show him at 15% or more is astounding. His coalition is certainly not with the media, it's not the rich people controlling it, it's not the democratic establishment...His support comes from the average citizen.
The average citizen isn't writing the CNN articles. The average (individual) citizen doesn't have the money to throw around to make things go their way.
He has massive amounts of support that will show when the time comes to vote.
1991
Democratic Socialists Of America Conference
The Federalist Society
Democratic Socialists Of America Conference
The Federalist Society
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The same "average citizen" that can barely tell him and Biden apart ideologically. he has support but he's hardly doing his best to appeal to the Democrats in-house like Warren is, that's why he's got a harder job ahead to create his coalition while Warren's doing an Obama.
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Except that's not what I said. I'm simply saying that it isn't a foregone conclusion that he doesn't have broad support just because he's 3rd in public polls. I'm actually doubtful he'll win the nomination, but theoretically, he could have more support than the polls show, and the Sanders campaign said their internal polling (where their methodology accounts for more younger voters) seems to indicate that as well. Same with canvassing data so far (that I've heard about from contacts in the campaign).
That's not what a capitalist is. Writing a book is not the exploitation of a giant labor force to profit directly off their labor.
I followed a link in that article. Look at the favourable/unfavourable ratings and ask your question again about who can't win if more than 50% of the country doesn't like them.
EDIT: For clarity, I think any of the top 5-or-so candidates could win.
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