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Separating Games from their Creators - Kingdom Come: Deliverance
- Thread starter Dictator
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you forgot the "/s" at the end, some people are going to believe that you are being serious
You're not being serious... right?
He calls Sarkeesian a "misandrist", supports an online harrassment and doxxing group, and blames a conspiracy for not covering his game.
"So edgy!"
"both sides"? really?
Lol no it's the only way to make your point of view win. Every studio and every game director should be allowed to make the game according to their vision. You can then buy the game if you like and accept that vision or skip it if you don't.
Sargon was called human trash and a mysoginist because of he criticised her. So there's one example.
Nope, Sargon was called human trash because he harassed her, and also, he's human trash.
Got any better examples?
He never harassed her. That's complete bs
Try keeping your bias of him out of this
The problem with the 'both sides' fence sitting (and I do appreciate the thought you've put into your posts) is that intentionally or not, you end up downplaying that GamerGate was a harassment campaign. When people point to Anita as being on the other side, they're ignoring that she didn't choose to be one of the key targets of a harassment campaign. I've never really understood what the other side of GamerGate was even meant to be... but it seems to often be described as a lot of far left people on twitter. To me those are people who were justly upset at a harassment campaign. Maybe they over reacted, I don't know, but they don't represent all the people who disagreed with GamerGate's goals.
Vavra wants to publically take pro MRA / GamerGate positions? Fine. I'm sure he's smart enough to realize that will turn some people away from projects he's a key lead on. Gamers trying to get people upset with his public statements to ignore them and spend their dollars? It just seems like a waste of time.
To be quite frank, Vavra sometimes drives me crazy with the shit he says. Can't even attribute it to a language barrier (sometimes his English, which is otherwise quite good, gets in the way of making himself clear) because I speak Czech and so I'm able to read his opinions in the actual native language of the man. He's often intellectually dishonest in allowing the side of an argument that he agrees with to be oppressive and hateful while calling out the other side for it. Generally, I don't think he's a bad person but he definitely does a very bad job at communicating it.
The take-away I get from this is that Vavra is an asshole
What's worse is that his ego won't let him admit he's being an asshole
Imagine if Trump got something right, he'd lord it over everyone's head
That's what this guy is doing. He's basically going, "BOHEMIA WAS ALL WHITE YOU SJW CUNTS!"
His information is correct but his presentation is wrong
What's worse is that his ego won't let him admit he's being an asshole
Imagine if Trump got something right, he'd lord it over everyone's head
That's what this guy is doing. He's basically going, "BOHEMIA WAS ALL WHITE YOU SJW CUNTS!"
His information is correct but his presentation is wrong
The word "argument" is offended by your use of it. Even if we assume that this hypothetical difference exists, for which you neither supply evidence or reasoning, how should it affect moral decisions? So its ok to buy non-art products from racists because the product is not tarnished by their beliefs?
Also, what is an argument that you have seen that is a little less worse, and what is one that is a little more worse?
Look, i agree with you. What i dont agree with is to jump to rhetoric like calling people "garbage" or even worse, judging others by their purchasing decisions. It isnt that easy. Everybody has different lines and sensibilities. In my opinion, the only way were going to push further is by stopping to judge each other and start to have level-eyed conversations about our actions and how we feel about them. Treating everyone respectfully in the process.
It makes the conversation a whole lot harder, but even without an agreement, a lot more valuable and productive.
Thats fine. What if you didnt spend any money on entertainment, but reallocate that to buy the things you need from sources that do not exploit people in the most eggregious ways?
https://www.polygon.com/features/2017/6/27/15880582/anita-sarkeesian-garbage-human-vidcon-interview
https://www.themarysue.com/sarkeesian-v-garbage-humans/
In any case, this thread isn't about Anita or Sargon. But keep this in mind next time you want to defend an openly misogynistic and racist Youtuber.
Sargon was a big name in GG early on and we all know what that involved.
You're really trying to say he never harassed her?
He was sat there, doing nothing, and she decided to attack him. And that equates to him harassing her to you? Complete bs.
Just reading about this now, Vavra seems like a good person and I can understand everything he says. The complaints about him and the game seem absurd and totally unnecessary to me.
This from me.
What this says to me is that creators such as he can make vile statements like these and suffer no consequence.
User Banned (1 month): Supporting members of a harassment movement, denying evidence to contrary. Ban extended after review.
No he didn't. Feel free to prove me wrong though. The only things he's done regarding Anita, is make a few videos criticising her, and watch her speak at vidcon.
He jumped into controversy himself, and no matter is subtly accurate the portrait you could make of him or articulate an explaination of the current political state of eastern europe countries or how rudimentary and even offensive is the ideological grid of western people on it, it's his own fault.
While no one is going to accuse any Minecraft player to support the ideology of the cooked endive who coded it, who would have forced Vavra to put a Mongolian army or an Amazon queen in his game ? NOBODY FFS, and no one would have the stupid idea to ask it seriously.
The GG started with manic ways of a puritan psycho who could not stand his ex-girlfriend having an adult and private sexuality, who unleash his 4chan kennel against her, and opportunistic manipulators transformed that crowd harassment into a stringy debate.
While Mrs Frequency say freely what she wants to say, like any reddit moron or random twitpster, stop acting like if they are ruling your world and feel concerned for anything said anywhere by anyone. It's your problem if you feel guilty to have the obligation to response. Your are the only foolish foolest fool victim of your own foolishly foolishness.
While no one is going to accuse any Minecraft player to support the ideology of the cooked endive who coded it, who would have forced Vavra to put a Mongolian army or an Amazon queen in his game ? NOBODY FFS, and no one would have the stupid idea to ask it seriously.
The GG started with manic ways of a puritan psycho who could not stand his ex-girlfriend having an adult and private sexuality, who unleash his 4chan kennel against her, and opportunistic manipulators transformed that crowd harassment into a stringy debate.
While Mrs Frequency say freely what she wants to say, like any reddit moron or random twitpster, stop acting like if they are ruling your world and feel concerned for anything said anywhere by anyone. It's your problem if you feel guilty to have the obligation to response. Your are the only foolish foolest fool victim of your own foolishly foolishness.
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It is already ridiculous to boil this down to whites vs non-whites. It again comes from a sort of american cultural imperialism where people pretend like their is some uniform "white" culture in europe as there might be in the US, when the reality is completely different. You have so many different cultures, languages and traditions of the different european ethnic groups, it is frankly offensive to somehow boil that all down to "just white people, like in the US". Has there been any representation for czech people in gaming, aside from Prague being used as a backdrop in MD and MGS4? Any of the minorities that will be represented in the game? So yes I can absolutely understand that it must be extremely maddening to have people coming in and going "Wow what a racist game, there's no diversity and PoC! All just whites!!". It's a completely twisted understanding of diversity.
the dude is like the lead director in charge of the game though.
I'm glad to see Gamergate revisionism has taken full hold, and that this thread has reached the point where someone is going to bat for Sargon unironically.
It really gives me hope that maybe the video game industry can change.
It really gives me hope that maybe the video game industry can change.
/s
i'm not super educated on the subject, but i dont really think its a big deal whether this dudes one tiny historical fiction game in rural germany or wherever has poc. (vs something like the witcher, that represents a sprawling and fantastical world and is kinda making a statement by being Whites Only.)
however that aside the dude clearly fuckin sucks, says a bunch of vile anti sjw and pro gamergate shit, and doesn't seem like the type to keep his cryptofascism out of his game's writing, so no thanks on this game.
however that aside the dude clearly fuckin sucks, says a bunch of vile anti sjw and pro gamergate shit, and doesn't seem like the type to keep his cryptofascism out of his game's writing, so no thanks on this game.
User Banned (3 days): Ignoring evidence to the contrary, disingenuous trolling.
Nope. He follows some stupid idiots who I dislike, but I don't see anything there even remotely worthy enough to call him a Nazi.
So you will basically commit a crime by pirating his game to make your point ?
I hardly see how that accomplishes anything.
It is Bohemia. Part of what is now the Czech Republic. Not "rural Germany or whatever". Ugh.
Can someone explain the controversy about the historical accuracy? Are they historically inaccurate by not including POC?
sorry, I don't know much about the game or the region. Doesn't change my point at all though.
Not really surprising based on the subject matter.
Personally I'm not getting involved anymore. This thread has run it's course for me.
Hopefully the OT won't have too much of this shit. One person does not represent a developer.
I mean the topic of the thread (title) is absolutely legit and it's frankly an interesting discussion to have. However I also hope that the future OT as well as future threads about this specific matter will stay "separate" in a way that one won't interfere with discussion of the other.
I mean your definition of nazi seems to include genocide as a prerequisite so outside of a picture of him mowing down an entire country's worth of people I'm not sure you can see anything worthy enough.
Don't worry, the OT will be your safe space.
Future threads though, so long as it's relevant it's still going to come up. Because he created the game. He founded the studio. And he's still a dirtbag. None of these facts have changed.
I don't get that position either.
It's basically saying "Hey, I have no problem working with the white house, Trump doesn't represent the white house after all".
If the guy was just a random code monkey, sure maybe the company isn't represented by the guy holding shitty views.
But here the game is pretty his baby and he's in all parts of it.
In the end the game is going to represent him in the same way as his words.
Was Bohemia 100% white? No.
Would you expect to run into POC in every village and town? Of course not.
It's fine to have a town full of white folk, the problem is when the guy in charge takes such pride in being a Gamergate, alt-right shit head.
That question has been hotly debated but the truth likely falls closer to them actually being historically accurate. There were probably some people of color in inland parts of Europe at that time, but this game is recreating a small area of Bohemia that wasn't really especially noteworthy as a cultural hub or trade route, so while it's not completely unimaginable that there could have been some groups, it's most certainly not a glaring or even an unreasonable omission to leave them out.
The controversy stems from the fact that the lead guy has had questionable social media activity, namely supporting elements of GamerGate and making some callous jokes and comments. There have also been debates as to what constitutes diversity, because the game does include a range of ethnic groups that certainly were in the region at the time, they just are not peoples of color.
That's basically it.
And is the creative voice guiding the game.
Fans will continue to handwaive it away like he's the key grip on a film set and not more like the film's director or screenwriter.
Also I'd like to point out that this
An historian looking at the history of a place will know much more than people who just happen to be born there.
It's a stupid argument.
Is BS.
An historian looking at the history of a place will know much more than people who just happen to be born there.
It's a stupid argument.
I'd say most sensible people are willing to admit that Bohemia and Europe at large was racially homogeneous in this period. There were of course non-whites (which is in itself a redundant term as there are many different tribes that belong under the umbrella of "white people") in Europe, but they were so rare in this particular region that most people living in Bohemia during this time would not have seen them. Daniel Vavra and his team consulted with historians and they agreed. If this was a fantasy game, or some kind of timeline-bending setting, then it becomes a different story, but the whole premise of this particular game was to offer a unique period/location in history and do it justice. It seems a vocal minority feel this is somehow racist and excludes non-whites from playing the game.
Historically speaking, yes, PoC would have been very rare in the region. That said, that does not mean they wouldn't have been there period, which the guy waffles back and forth on.
The historical accuracy defense also falls a tad apart when you notice that the main scenario itself is predicated on something that would have equally been historically unlikely, but was allowed for the sake of storytelling purposes. Also that they reference a few anachronistic things and foreign concepts for the sake of streamlining the presentation.
Vavra himself repeatedly affirmed there were no PoC (period) at the time in the area, which has been proved wrong because there are images of art that depicts people of color in this area around the time the game takes place, even some religious figures.
Scale that down to the scale of the game it makes it so that there is a probability that you would have encountered some in this area, but doesn't necessary prove that there would have been a necessity to include some to be perfectly accurate.
It's not innacurate per say not to include PoC in that 9km square of land, and they also might not have wanted to use resources to properly model some if it was for only a handful of NPC's (cause no one just wants regular models with darker skin ...)
Thing is with Vavra being who he is, the only answer people are willing to take as the truth is that it's a racist pov and nothing else, with the Studio's official answer always being way more nuanced that Vavra's personal ones on his personal Twitter I'm personally not entirely convinced.
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