On this point, and this point alone, your opinion is bad. There's a fine line between naked and barely naked and flaunting and testing this line is a world of difference for many.
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Sexualized Designs do not equal Bad Designs
- Thread starter iRAWRasaurus
- Start date
On this point, and this point alone, your opinion is bad. There's a fine line between naked and barely naked and flaunting and testing this line is a world of difference for many.
TO add to this, stories have always been used as a method of conveying values because they're exceptionally good at it. That's why stories contain themes, and morals that make people think. It's why the types of stories and themes that are popular are usually very closely linked to cultural values.
People like to say they can separate fiction and reality, but the truth is nobody can actually completely separate them. On a conscious level we know these things aren't real, but they still affect us in the same way on a deeper level. If we could completely separate fiction and reality, then fiction would lose all it's appeal. It's because fiction has some small piece of reality to us that we expect characters to act in a consistent and logical (as in logical to their personality, not as in always acting rational) manner. It's why we get sad when bad things happen to a character who does not exist. It's the core of why we can enjoy fiction at all
Isn't kind of the premise of being Busy? Mercy is clean, she is not.
Mercy has wings, she don't
Mercy heals and empowers, she heals and steal health.
I love the whole concept and I couldn't be more happier about her and having another no canon girl in the selection screen.
And for the whole thing, sure, the celebration of sexy is, nowadays, a taboo and it has to be since forever, games and media had used the "sexy" as a selling point and even today we have this problem, I have no problem with tiddies booties and dickies here and there, i would rather have more if you ask me, there are tons of sexualized designs that I find super cool, look for example to Senran, even if they have samey bodies, their outfits are just amazing, I love them.
Pretty much any game by Vanillaware or Wayfoward has massive amounts of sexy but also strong female leading characters, so it's a bit dicey to talk about those
TL;DR: Bring more sexy, don't use it to sell a product, make the "sexy" more varied with more selection of cuties, give us more diversity
LEAVE MOIRA ALONE.
I didnt say make her more sexy, I just want them to remove all the extraneous elements like the metal in her face and many of the tubes.
This looks much better.
Also is this the Chun super your talking about? This isn't really sexualized, I dont think that was a good example.
This is an incredibly disingenuous post considering "homogenization" is exactly the current status quo and "variety" what we are sorely lacking, due to how common sexualization is. Are you really arguing that there are too few games with sexualized females and that to foster "variety" we should have more? Like, what the flying fuck?
I like her design for sure. But Jesus the body ratios are way fucked up w her tiny head she looks bizarre.
Well I will say in western AAA games they rarely ever have sexualized female characters, so I guess that was his point. Like you wont see a design like Bayonetta or 2B in a big budget western game nowadays.
Great, now I had to look up "slash fiction"... xD Anyway, I guess I haven't kept up with the changing definition:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_fiction
And same for yaoi which I've always understood to be hentai.
Regardless, even if not explicitly pornographic, these types of media are still often so, and are extremely niche. So on one side, you have female sexualization in all forms of mainstream media, and on the other side, you have male sexualization in very niche products. Not exactly a balanced state, unless you think video games should remain a niche boys club.
http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Mad_Moxxi
Moxxi is an NPC, the owner of a club and has a burlesque kind of appearance and personality. She loves to crack crass sex jokes, to make innuendos, and to flirt with everyone. She's known for being promiscuous and having had many lovers and husbands. Her sexuality is always shown to be her own and not something to pander to the camera or player.
one of the things that makes Bayonetta more than just lame fan service is her insane and disturbing body proportions
I think that's what bothers me most. Camilla has a great design that was ultimately let down by the need to sexualize her. If they covered her chest and filled in her pants with armour that didn't give her steel panties then that is a top-10 character design.
Man, HypedBeast, you really do seem to lose sleep over character designs, haha. Once you have thread posting privileges I would recommend letting your character design threads breathe a little bit ;)
On topic, really, most of the designs you posted in the OP are good and successful character designs. Both Ivy and Moira are really great designs that appeal to different parts of the fanbase and you need to start thinking in those terms before blatantly saying they are bad. (I saw a flurry of positive feedback and people going crazy making Moira fanart over the weekend, now they have a cool mature with character they can call their own) They generate sales, fanart, discussion, very good merchandise, bring new fans into the series and give us something to talk about. They are well drawn, their designs goes with their gameplay style, they have clear identifiable silhouettes, their personalities shine through the designs, have cool weapons that feel like natural extensions of the character. If your judgment boils down to "I dont like it and why is her arm armored and not her torso" then youre just not getting it.
BAD character design is something you see in games like BMX XXX, or those bargain bin games you never touch, or games based on their characters that didnt sell well. All of your examples were successful games and those characters were/are reasons for their success so they cannot be counted as categorically bad. You can definitely say you dont like them and that they dont please your taste. For instance, I disliked R. Mikas original design and think its among the weakest of the Alpha series, but it was still fairly good. However, Bloody Roar had bad character design across the board, it failed to connect with enough players, silhouettes were all over the place, characters were wildly inconsistent with each other, the movesets were generic and didnt fully explore the gameplay possibilities and the charm and personality you need for that kind of game to be successful simply wasnt there.
Fans in general really misunderstand character design because there is an assumption that it must be for them and, if its not for them, then its bad. However, the reality deviates from that and (for example) characters in fighting games are usually designed to cater to very specific groups. I dont know many people who like the entire Street Fighter II cast, you have most people who like the generic characters like Ken, Ryu and Chun but then you have the very different groups who are really hardcore about everyone else individually, and thats key! Ivy was designed for a very rabid, very specific group of fans, but youll have a lot of other people who like the other Soul Calibur characters like Hilde and Mitsurugi who please a wider demographic.
On topic, really, most of the designs you posted in the OP are good and successful character designs. Both Ivy and Moira are really great designs that appeal to different parts of the fanbase and you need to start thinking in those terms before blatantly saying they are bad. (I saw a flurry of positive feedback and people going crazy making Moira fanart over the weekend, now they have a cool mature with character they can call their own) They generate sales, fanart, discussion, very good merchandise, bring new fans into the series and give us something to talk about. They are well drawn, their designs goes with their gameplay style, they have clear identifiable silhouettes, their personalities shine through the designs, have cool weapons that feel like natural extensions of the character. If your judgment boils down to "I dont like it and why is her arm armored and not her torso" then youre just not getting it.
BAD character design is something you see in games like BMX XXX, or those bargain bin games you never touch, or games based on their characters that didnt sell well. All of your examples were successful games and those characters were/are reasons for their success so they cannot be counted as categorically bad. You can definitely say you dont like them and that they dont please your taste. For instance, I disliked R. Mikas original design and think its among the weakest of the Alpha series, but it was still fairly good. However, Bloody Roar had bad character design across the board, it failed to connect with enough players, silhouettes were all over the place, characters were wildly inconsistent with each other, the movesets were generic and didnt fully explore the gameplay possibilities and the charm and personality you need for that kind of game to be successful simply wasnt there.
Fans in general really misunderstand character design because there is an assumption that it must be for them and, if its not for them, then its bad. However, the reality deviates from that and (for example) characters in fighting games are usually designed to cater to very specific groups. I dont know many people who like the entire Street Fighter II cast, you have most people who like the generic characters like Ken, Ryu and Chun but then you have the very different groups who are really hardcore about everyone else individually, and thats key! Ivy was designed for a very rabid, very specific group of fans, but youll have a lot of other people who like the other Soul Calibur characters like Hilde and Mitsurugi who please a wider demographic.
Thats the point,she is supposed to look larger than life, like a living fashion sketch. The design is not for everybody, but I cant think of many video game characters with her kind of proportions.
The only other designs I can think of like these are Clamp manga.
I already answered that in the previous post to the one you quoted. :)
Capcom is sexualizing the hell out of every female in Street Fighter now, especially since V, that's hardly a secret. That doesn't make the original design sexualized, which was the discussion. It's at best a borderline case, especially compared to the likes of Ivy and Mai.
Yeah, good luck with that.
Probably shouldn't talk about disingenuity and then try the old by-the-book disingenuous trick of "are you really arguing [insert made-up strawman argument that has nothing to do with what the other is saying, but is purposely designed to be easily countered]? [insert profanity for canned disgust effect]?"
The option I was talking against is the removal of sexualized designs, which would indeed damage variety.
At this moment there is a very wide, and widening, variety in character designs in gaming, and the removal of one category of factors, as some most definitely would like, would be detrimental to that variety.
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Why would you design a character like Ivy to be catered to the part of the fanbase that likes to see women objectified?
WOW thats both making a giant assumption and putting words in my mouth, well done!
Of course not (and I've mentioned several times that the industry is getting more inclusive towards women and I'm glad for it so I don't know what's the point of that remark), I'm sure that once that more women get into the videogame business there will be even more sexualization of men and again, I'm okay with that.
You know what you bring up a good point of the character designs connecting with an audience. Many in the Skullgirls thread yesterday mentioned how much they loved the character designs and the art style, so despite many disliking Skullgirls aesthetic, it still connected with enough people, which is really what matters in the end.
However I dont really want to just bring up the shittiest designs and be done with it. No one is really gonna argue that Onechanbara or some forgotten Street Fighter clone from the 90's has bad designs, there isn't much discussion to be had. I like hearing controversial viewpoints, it adds to interesting discussion.
I find the notion of the quality of a game's character design to be a direct function of how many copies it sold to be utter ridiculous, sorry. :) And particularly, the notion that this is an objective measurement of character design quality, so any sort of discussion is wrong and pointless, is extremely problematic.
Props for liking Bloody Roar, it's awesome.
I have no problem with the chest window but even I have to admit the battle panties are just kinda dumb.
That seems to by why in some shots they keep her legs crossed to not show them or something.
My mistake, I didn't mean to do either. What very specific, rabid part of the fanbase are you saying Ivy is designed for?
I think it's hard, in a video game, to really flesh out overtly sexual characters in a way that conveys the fact that the sexuality is innate to the character, instead of designed in a way to appeal to a straight male audience (fanservice / male gaze). I also think that sometimes people create those kinds of characters and THINK they're giving the women agency, but fail to do so because... not sure how to properly express it, really.
Personally, I roll my eyes hardest whenever a character is supposed to be "pure/virginal" but is always finding herself in sexy-but-totally-accidental incidents/outfits.
For your example OP, I don't think there's a problem with Chun Li, inherently. However, I will say some of her fans take it to a level (they talk about her in ways) where it's eyerollingly cringy and frankly a little gross. That's no fault of the creator, though.
Again, back to personal feelings -- eh, I'm pretty sexually bold, I'd say, and don't have any issues with sexiness for the sake of sexiness. My avatars will inevitably cycle though a lot of blatant in-your-face sex (even my Steam profile picture is literally just my tits), but some people do just enjoy flaunting their bodies for the sake of doing so and we just have to accept people are different. Accordingly, videogame women could do with a lot more variety in personality and appearance, instead of always going to generic roles (with almost always involve lots of cleavage/leg/etc). It's okay to recognize some women are simply like that and have characters like that, but it's another to deny it's problematic how often it occurs in games.
Personally, I roll my eyes hardest whenever a character is supposed to be "pure/virginal" but is always finding herself in sexy-but-totally-accidental incidents/outfits.
For your example OP, I don't think there's a problem with Chun Li, inherently. However, I will say some of her fans take it to a level (they talk about her in ways) where it's eyerollingly cringy and frankly a little gross. That's no fault of the creator, though.
Again, back to personal feelings -- eh, I'm pretty sexually bold, I'd say, and don't have any issues with sexiness for the sake of sexiness. My avatars will inevitably cycle though a lot of blatant in-your-face sex (even my Steam profile picture is literally just my tits), but some people do just enjoy flaunting their bodies for the sake of doing so and we just have to accept people are different. Accordingly, videogame women could do with a lot more variety in personality and appearance, instead of always going to generic roles (with almost always involve lots of cleavage/leg/etc). It's okay to recognize some women are simply like that and have characters like that, but it's another to deny it's problematic how often it occurs in games.
I didnt say make her more sexy, I just want them to remove all the extraneous elements like the metal in her face and many of the tubes.
This looks much better.
Also is this the Chun super your talking about? This isn't really sexualized, I dont think that was a good example.
HypedBeast - Moira looks so busy and bland?
Also HypedBeast- add another hero with a gun and also 4 tentacles, that is not busy at all.
Its not the only indicator (didnt mean for it come out that way), but for specific games that live and die by their character designs, its a huge deal. Street Fighter III still has great character design eventhough it didnt sell well, but thats mostly an indication of bad timing on Capcoms part and not understanding their fanbase at the time. However, for a good chunk of games out there, lackluster character design is indeed tied to reception and sales.
Yeah, I always wondered why they did that since they designed her that way.
Considering that "good character design" (regardless of gender) is by no means an absolute or objective quality, might want to consider that they may simply like it. Which is their prerogative.
Indeed. And at least from my experience, art is one of the segments of the industry in which ladies tend to find the most purchase/success.
Still a ridiculous argument, sorry. A game can sell well or badly because of its gameplay, or its story, or its marketing, or a myriad other factors. Saying "good designs = game sold well" is such a surreal example of reasoning that "putting the cart before the horse" doesn't even begin to describe it; rather "the horse is fast so the cart must carry valuable things". It's a complete and utter non-sequitur.
Character designs should tell you something about the character, all the designs decisions should have a reason for existing on a character.
I don't know how anyone can look at Quiet and Ivy and say they're good designs. Quiet's design literally tell you She exists purely as a sexual object.
She doesn't talk and obediently follows Big Boss around while wearing basically nothing. She's seen not heard…like holy shit guys.
I don't know how anyone can look at Quiet and Ivy and say they're good designs. Quiet's design literally tell you She exists purely as a sexual object.
She doesn't talk and obediently follows Big Boss around while wearing basically nothing. She's seen not heard…like holy shit guys.
Female artist actually tend to make some of the most sexualized art
Kinu Nishumura
Street Fighter
Mariel Cartwright(Kinuko) Check out her Twitter,its great
Skullgirls Lead Animator
Mari Shimakazi
And specially producers and directors.
If the higher up wants to make an objectified women than you either make or you have the design rejected. And again. And again. And again. Till you make it or you are out and they find someone who does it.
Ivy was sexualized, but reasonably well designed in Soul Calibur 1.
Unfortunately, she got infected with the "balloon boobs" and "cloth-eating" viruses (both pretty common among female videogame characters), and the end results aren't pretty. :/
Men are objectified. They're mooks, muscles and pretty boy caricatures.
You can find a character like Ivy sexy and not think women should be objectified. Youre a horny person, you like big boobs, youre into a dominatrix lady, you buy the game and her merch. You can do all that and not be a sexist asshole ... or you could. Theres a lot of sexist people out there that prefer non sexualized designs, too.
To answer your other question though
Lets pretend this is the case, like hey Namco and the people in charge have an outdated view of women and are just engaging in self masturbatory character design. You would design a character like that because you are not in charge of ethics, you are in charge of selling your game and you think that design will get a lot of attention and drive sales. I dont necessarily agree with it, but if the character is designed to that and it succeeds, then it did its job very well regardless of how much your or I may like it.
For instance, I fucking hate the Minecraft character design, but its brilliant and it forced me to think in simpler, more iconic, more toy like shapes for designs.
Not sure it so much the individual images as much as female artist creating many attractive female characters.
I guess it depends on what's driving the conversation, to be honest
If we are saying its OK for characters like R Mika and Quiet to exist but the industry really needs to get better about more games and characters that avoid those pitfalls, then I mean yeah, isn't that something we can all agree on?
I would prefer it if instead of 1 Ellie to every 3 or 4 Ivy's it was equal in terms of representation, and I wouldn't understand how anyone would be against that
Where you lose me is if the conversation steers towards "I don't think characters like Quiet are any good and they shouldn't exist"
If that's what the artists vision is and/or there are enough people interested to make it viable, we need to have those games too.
Senran Kagura is trashy but some people enjoy that trashiness, so let people enjoy what they want, but let's all work together as an industry to make sure everyone has enough games to play where "just don't play those games" is actually a viable option, yeah?
If we are saying its OK for characters like R Mika and Quiet to exist but the industry really needs to get better about more games and characters that avoid those pitfalls, then I mean yeah, isn't that something we can all agree on?
I would prefer it if instead of 1 Ellie to every 3 or 4 Ivy's it was equal in terms of representation, and I wouldn't understand how anyone would be against that
Where you lose me is if the conversation steers towards "I don't think characters like Quiet are any good and they shouldn't exist"
If that's what the artists vision is and/or there are enough people interested to make it viable, we need to have those games too.
Senran Kagura is trashy but some people enjoy that trashiness, so let people enjoy what they want, but let's all work together as an industry to make sure everyone has enough games to play where "just don't play those games" is actually a viable option, yeah?
I cant really post more of Mariel Cartwrights art,since a lot of it is NSFW.
But even then that picture is still pretty sexual,Valentine breast are popping out of her gown.
Which reminds me of Konami ditching Ayami Kojima and pushing Castlevania towards a more generic artstyle.
Fuck Konami.
I never said any character shouldn't exist. Everyone has different taste, this is just a thread discussing what you think are good and bad female designs.
I know, it wasn't directed at any one particular person, sorry if you took it that way
Female artist actually tend to make some of the most sexualized art
Kinu Nishumura
Street Fighter
Mariel Cartwright(Kinuko) Check out her Twitter,its great
Skullgirls Lead Animator
Mari Shimakazi
Sexist industry favors women who accept to do sexist work. Shocking, I know
This is nonsense, allowing fiction to emotionally move you is in no way proof that people can't easily separate fiction and reality. Willing suspension of disbelief is not proof of anything other than itself. If you're going to make broad claims like this you should probably back them up with something other than a pet theory that falls apart on casual inspection.
You keep generalizing my point when Im providing specific examples, so of course you find it ridiculous because you are blowing it up to such an extreme that anybody would think the same. At no point did I say
"good designs = game sold well"
I said that for a game that heavily relies on the strengths of its characters, the character design is KEY and, if the game isnt a success then one of the first elements that should be looked that are the character designs. If the game sold well, and the characters remain memorable over time, then those characters are, for the most part, successful. Its just a starting point for analysis, not the end of the analysis.
Sexist in your opinion, Mariel Cartwright loves to draw sexy women and dosent find it degrading at all(watch this interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJhcUzIDzHs) and Mari Shimakazi draws all of her character with long,Clamp like proportions. I cant say what Nishumura feels since most of my Capcom artbooks where she is interviewed are in Japanese.
While people do answer to a lot of higher ups, most artist would not be doing what they are doing if they didnt enjoy their work.