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This was honestly me a few weeks ago reading and seeing the pictures of Bush's and the US's war crimes. I was extremely depressed the next day.
OP
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Gen Z or just new to US politics?
The American political scale.
Snark aside, it's this.
Being a socialist doesn't automatically make you far left. Social issues also do. So someone like Warren who isn't a socialist but is a progressive can be described as leftwing. (I know, this hurts some people deal with it)
I was a lib ignoring the real issues of the world for so long and I hate myself for not waking up sooner
Thing is, it's people here in the UK now doing this. I've seen the liberal=left shit pop up more and more in the election thread too.
It's really annoying, the shit Corbyn is proposing is all social democratic, yet they think it's far left. If social democracy is far left then where the fuck are Communists on the scale? Lol
When most people, including many social democrats, treat anything to the left of social democracy an illegitimate ideology, it puts a hard stop on the political spectrum many people are willing to consider.
There is no social justice without economic justice. Not being a bigot doesn't make you left wing.
Snark aside, it's this.
Being a socialist doesn't automatically make you far left. Social issues also do. So someone like Warren who isn't a socialist but is a progressive can be described as leftwing. (I know, this hurts some people deal with it)
Note I'm not really talking about Warren, I haven't really been paying attention to her because we have our own election right now.
It's just nuts, I had a guy that called himself a socialist in the election thread bitching about corbyn being far left and telling me anyone that opposed austerity in 2010 was crazy.
Black folk in America would disagree with that statement.
Also how is that racism working out over there in Europe?
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This itself is a pretty sweeping statement! How is social justice for black Americans going to be achieved without, at the very least, reparations?
Black folk right here and I definitely agree with that. Economic issues are so intertwined with social issues that they can always be separated. Both must be tackled at the same time for true justice. Shit, Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, and MLK knew this.
So there isn't a huge number of issues facing black people because their lack of economic justice. Ok.
And what the fuck at the Europe thing? You think I'm gonna defend bigots or some nonsense?
The issue is trying to push one over the other.
Just giving white folk money isn't going to make them not racist.
Naw. It's what the great civil right leaders preached about. You can't separate the two because they're always intertwine. For true social justice you must provide economic justice as well
No, we did the economic thing with white folk in the 40's. They got pissy when we shared that with PoC and are now in our current hellscape for it.
The people trying to argue anyone not socialist isn't leftwing for one.
Believe it or not, SoC Dems/Progressives who are capitalist can get the economic justice with social justice too.
Can't have economic justice while still maintaining capitalism. Socdems don't want to do that.
Where? Social democrats are centre left and are capitalists. You're just picking shit nobody is saying.
The thing about believing in class solidarity as strongly as I do is that it gives you a whole lot of practice reps at trying to find a way to be fine with people with some questionable opinions, way more questionable than eating some cold war propaganda about communist iconography or whatever.
Which is all this really usually is.
You responded to my point about the spectrum.
There is no need to be so defensive.
I disagree.
Yeah, but the austerity thing was where I stopped even trying tbh. It was a reasonable back and forth before that.
I don't think you can have economic justice in the States for very long without a fundamental change. As a nation it's too strong of a point of confluence for wealth and power for that wealth and power to not be applied to repealing reforms as they have in the past. Thinking they won't be able to repeal them even faster the next time seems naive.
I'm not defensive, you're just lashing out.
I responded to you saying talking nice about social stuff without any economic measures is left wing. It isn't.
Of course you do, you're a liberal. I can't see how you can have economic justice under capitalism, a system that is designed to extract money from the masses and put it into the hands of a few, a system designed to have an underclass (which usually falls along racial lines here in America).
I've never hid that!
My point still stands, you can be left without being socialist.
Without being a socialist yeah but not by being a liberal.
You cut people out of your life because you disagree with them about the effect of counter-cyclical fiscal policy on the economy?
I would have zero friends if that was my bar.
Well alright, but even social democracy acknowledges economic and social has to be tackled together for meaningful change. They just argue that capitalism is still the best system for it.
In my eyes left of center on economics but super social progressive makes you left.
Not hard or far but you're left on the spectrum.
Don't think I didn't notice the shift from far left to just left. Unless it's from the perspective of right wingers, Warren isn't far left.
Liberal not American liberal right?
Yes kinda to the first no to the second.
I mean, austerity has literally killed people here. None of my close friends are very political but they are all anti austerity because they've seen the harm.
Also, stopping having a back and forth online is a different proposition than dropping friends in any case.
You're minimising austerity here. Hugely.
I think the confusion is that saying that someone is 'left of (a given) center' and that they're 'left(ists)' really isn't really the same thing.
The problem is leftist as a terminology in my eyes. You can be left wing without being a socialist. You are a leftist but not the Leftist.
No, we are not going to muddy leftist now. That's being a liberal, a perfectly fine nomenclature for that.
Oh sorry, I misunderstood, I thought we were talking about IRL shit.
I'm 100% with you about online interactions, I generally just try to not to engage with people who I think I won't enjoy talking to. I think once I started thinking about it in those terms I became much happier.
It's not like breaking some fool on the wheel of logic on the OT section of a gaming forum is gonna matter all that much.
p.s.
I didn't mean to downplay the effects of austerity, but I think most "normal people" who are for it just think it's gonna lead to better outcomes than the alternative.
I don't think they're mustache twirling and saying "hahahaha, now is our time to cut social programs which we say we love but secretly hate" . That's what conservative politicians do.
The problem is that too muddies the waters.
Progressives like myself and typical Liberals don't really agree on much save for keeping capitalism.
Indeed. Capital, racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, empire, and colonialism? They're conjoined.
I mean, if someone's making more progress than you already...
How are you progressive? Let's go from there. Different way of progression? Branching ideas?
You are all liberals, American flavored and by definition. Leftists want to end capitalism. Full stop.
And yet, we don't agree with each other.
Like I said, we're something different.
No, the terminology as fine. If something is a 'wing', it's suggesting a more sweeping economic overhaul than the tepid expectation that capitalism might somehow deliver us to social and economic justice while avoiding climate disaster even though literally no part of that supposedly desirable outcome has legit economic incentives to be achieved under capitalism! There's nothing progressive in advocating for capitalism, that would be like advocating for feudalism when capitalism was taking off.