This was honestly me a few weeks ago reading and seeing the pictures of Bush's and the US's war crimes. I was extremely depressed the next day.Me educating myself on like every nascent social issue ever:
T00:00 "I don't see what the big deal is."
T00:10 "Oh, ouch..."
T02:00 "I literally just learned about this but the more I read about it the more upset I get."
Like it's not hard to just suspend judgement and listen to people and see how it might strike or affect a change in one's own perspective. But the more the moderation staff is kept separate from us the more they will see that kind of forbearance as being elective and not their full responsibility as the stewards of this place.
This was honestly me a few weeks ago reading and seeing the pictures of Bush's and the US's war crimes. I was extremely depressed the next day.
Speaking of social democrats, I've repeatedly seen social democracy described as far left. Especially in regards to Corbyn.
I don't know where people get their political scales from.
Speaking of social democrats, I've repeatedly seen social democracy described as far left. Especially in regards to Corbyn.
I don't know where people get their political scales from.
Gen Z or just new to US politics?
The American political scale.
I was a lib ignoring the real issues of the world for so long and I hate myself for not waking up soonerGen Z or just new to US politics?
The American political scale.
Thing is, it's people here in the UK now doing this. I've seen the liberal=left shit pop up more and more in the election thread too.Gen Z or just new to US politics?
The American political scale.
When most people, including many social democrats, treat anything to the left of social democracy an illegitimate ideology, it puts a hard stop on the political spectrum many people are willing to consider.Speaking of social democrats, I've repeatedly seen social democracy described as far left. Especially in regards to Corbyn.
I don't know where people get their political scales from.
There is no social justice without economic justice. Not being a bigot doesn't make you left wing.
Snark aside, it's this.
Being a socialist doesn't automatically make you far left. Social issues also do. So someone like Warren who isn't a socialist but is a progressive can be described as leftwing. (I know, this hurts some people deal with it)
It's just nuts, I had a guy that called himself a socialist in the election thread bitching about corbyn being far left and telling me anyone that opposed austerity in 2010 was crazy.When most people, including many social democrats, treat anything to the left of social democracy an illegitimate ideology, it puts a hard stop on the political spectrum many people are willing to consider.
Black folk in America would disagree with that statement.There is no social justice without economic justice. Not being a bigot doesn't make you left wing.
Note I'm not really talking about Warren, I haven't really been paying attention to her because we have our own election right now.
Black folk right here and I definitely agree with that. Economic issues are so intertwined with social issues that they can always be separated. Both must be tackled at the same time for true justice. Shit, Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, and MLK knew this.
So there isn't a huge number of issues facing black people because their lack of economic justice. Ok.Black folk in America would disagree with that statement.
Also how is that racism working out over there in Europe?
Black folk right here and I definitely agree with that. Economic issues are so intertwined with social issues that they can always be separated. Both must be tackled at the same time for true justice. Shit, Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, and MLK knew this.
The issue is trying to push one over the other.This itself is a pretty sweeping statement! How is social justice for black Americans going to be achieved without, at the very least, reparations?
Naw. It's what the great civil right leaders preached about. You can't separate the two because they're always intertwine. For true social justice you must provide economic justice as wellBlack folk in America would disagree with that statement.
Also how is that racism working out over there in Europe?
Okay. Who is doing/saying that?The issue is trying to push one over the other.
Just giving white folk money isn't going to make them not racist.
No, we did the economic thing with white folk in the 40's. They got pissy when we shared that with PoC and are now in our current hellscape for it.So there isn't a huge number of issues facing black people because their lack of economic justice. Ok.
The people trying to argue anyone not socialist isn't leftwing for one.
Can't have economic justice while still maintaining capitalism. Socdems don't want to do that.The people trying to argue anyone not socialist isn't leftwing for one.
Believe it or not, SoC Dems/Progressives who are capitalist can get the economic justice with social justice too.
Where? Social democrats are centre left and are capitalists. You're just picking shit nobody is saying.The people trying to argue anyone not socialist isn't leftwing for one.
Believe it or not, SoC Dems/Progressives who are capitalist can get the economic justice with social justice too.
The thing about believing in class solidarity as strongly as I do is that it gives you a whole lot of practice reps at trying to find a way to be fine with people with some questionable opinions, way more questionable than eating some cold war propaganda about communist iconography or whatever.It's just nuts, I had a guy that called himself a socialist in the election thread bitching about corbyn being far left and telling me anyone that opposed austerity in 2010 was crazy.
You responded to my point about the spectrum.Where? Social democrats are centre left and are capitalists. You're just picking shit nobody is saying.
I disagree.Can't have economic justice while still maintaining capitalism. Socdems don't want to do that.
Yeah, but the austerity thing was where I stopped even trying tbh. It was a reasonable back and forth before that.The thing about believing in class solidarity as strongly as I do is that it gives you a whole lot of practice reps at trying to find a way to be fine with people with some questionable opinions, way more questionable than eating some cold war propaganda about communist iconography or whatever.
Which is all this really usually is.
Believe it or not, SoC Dems/Progressives who are capitalist can get the economic justice with social justice too.
I'm not defensive, you're just lashing out.You responded to my point about the spectrum.
There is no need to be so defensive.
I disagree.
Of course you do, you're a liberal. I can't see how you can have economic justice under capitalism, a system that is designed to extract money from the masses and put it into the hands of a few, a system designed to have an underclass (which usually falls along racial lines here in America).
And I disagree.I'm not defensive, you're just lashing out.
I responded to you saying talking nice about social stuff without any economic measures is left wing. It isn't.
I've never hid that!Of course you do, you're a liberal. I can't see how you can have economic justice under capitalism, a system that is designed to extract money from the masses and put it into the hands of a few, a system designed to have an underclass (which usually falls along racial lines here in America).
I've never hid that!
My point still stands, you can be left without being socialist.
You cut people out of your life because you disagree with them about the effect of counter-cyclical fiscal policy on the economy?Yeah, but the austerity thing was where I stopped even trying tbh. It was a reasonable back and forth before that.
Well alright, but even social democracy acknowledges economic and social has to be tackled together for meaningful change. They just argue that capitalism is still the best system for it.
In my eyes left of center on economics but super social progressive makes you left.Well alright, but even social democracy acknowledges economic and social has to be tackled together for meaningful change. They just argue that capitalism is still the best system for it.
Don't think I didn't notice the shift from far left to just left. Unless it's from the perspective of right wingers, Warren isn't far left.I've never hid that!
My point still stands, you can be left without being socialist.
Liberal not American liberal right?
I mean, austerity has literally killed people here. None of my close friends are very political but they are all anti austerity because they've seen the harm.You cut people out of your life because you disagree with them about the effect of counter-cyclical fiscal policy on the economy?
I would have zero friends if that was my bar.
I said left from the beginning?Don't think I didn't notice the shift from far left to just left. Unless it's from the perspective of right wingers, Warren isn't far left.
You responded to a post about someone being far left
Liberal not American liberal right?
Yes kinda to the first no to the second.
I know, and I added on about it being a spectrum.
The problem is leftist as a terminology in my eyes. You can be left wing without being a socialist. You are a leftist but not the Leftist.I think the confusion is that saying that someone is 'left of (a given) center' and that they're 'left(ists)' really isn't really the same thing.
No, we are not going to muddy leftist now. That's being a liberal, a perfectly fine nomenclature for that.The problem is leftist as a terminology in my eyes. You can be left wing without being a socialist. You are a leftist but not the Leftist.
Oh sorry, I misunderstood, I thought we were talking about IRL shit.I mean, austerity has literally killed people here. None of my close friends are very political but they are all anti austerity because they've seen the harm.
Also, stopping having a back and forth online is a different proposition than dropping friends in any case.
You're minimising austerity here. Hugely.
The problem is that too muddies the waters.No, we are not going to muddy leftist now. That's being a liberal, a perfectly fine nomenclature for that.
Indeed. Capital, racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, empire, and colonialism? They're conjoined.I believe you can't really separate economic and social justice because they are inherently linked. They're two sides of the same coin.
The problem is that too muddies the waters.
Progressives like myself and typical Liberals don't really agree on much save for keeping capitalism.
You are all liberals, American flavored and by definition. Leftists want to end capitalism. Full stop.The problem is that too muddies the waters.
Progressives like myself and typical Liberals don't really agree on much save for keeping capitalism.
And yet, we don't agree with each other.You are all liberals, American flavored and by definition. Leftists want to end capitalism. Full stop.
The problem is leftist as a terminology in my eyes. You can be left wing without being a socialist. You are a leftist but not the Leftist.