Square-Enix just pulled a "Han shot first" in the Final Fantasy VII Remake / Spoilers.

DrDeckard · Mar 3, 2020

I'm shocked at the comments here...if you cant see the difference between a group of terrorists thinking they are doing the right thing for the greater good of the planet (their cause) to them not pulling it off and having the main bad guys doing it to remove their edge etc.

It completely changes the narrative.

Iztok · Mar 3, 2020

Brat-Sampson said:
The bomb futzing out shouldn't really change any of the morality of the situation. They didn't mean for it to do that.

Yeah, doesn't this pretty much invalidate any attempt that was made here?
I'm sorry if this was expounded upon in 11 pages (man ppl really love them some FF7), but I can't really see it.

Unless this leads to something more down the line, it was pointless.

VirtuaModel · Mar 3, 2020

Yarbskoo said:
"Hello, Apple? Yeah it was Shinra that blew those guys up, not me. I'm not a bad guy I swear. Can I have an iPhone now?"

Underrated post!

Context

Deleted member 13077 · Mar 3, 2020

Makes perfect sense in the context of the failed assassination on president shinra. He wants revenge, and doesn't care about killing a few civilians to get it.

Ferrs · Mar 3, 2020

I mean, as the title says, it's like Han shooting or not first, it doesn't change the narrative, it's irrelevant. It's still a dumb plot change.

cj_iwakura · Mar 3, 2020

I think the bigger problem is that it undermines the surprise of Shinra wanting Avalanche to succeed. Originally you think it's all going as planned.

Yarbskoo · Mar 3, 2020

mudai said:
Yeah, I'm watching it too. He literally said that (I will put in in spoilers):

Basically, in chapter 2 the Avalanche members are questioning what just happened and Jessie is confused, saying that she followed the instructions and is surprised that the bomb had this big of an explosion, saying that maybe it reacted differently to the Mako. Apparently this is a big plot point in chapter 2, where they walk around and see the destruction they caused and come to the realization that they are terrorist, causing this much destruction, but in the end it's for the planet and a casulty they accept.

He's also showing some b-roll footage SE provided right now that takes place in chapter 2.

I like that they attempted to address the morality of ecological terrorism somewhat, but I still think knowing Shinra was behind it from the beginning removes a lot of the weight of the conversation. I think there would be more impact if we were allowed to believe they really were responsible for the destruction, if only for the first couple of chapters.

OldMuffin · Mar 3, 2020

Haven't played the original, and the whole thing with civilian casualties would have been more impactful for me, and would be something that would have stuck with me for a long time, the same way the events of specs ops the line would have... oh well, can't be having shades of grey, got to be clearly black and white, where the good guys can't do any wrong and live and learn from what they have done.

Uthred · Mar 3, 2020

OldMuffin said:
Haven't played the original, and the whole thing with civilian casualties would have been more impactful for me, and would be something that would have stuck with me for a long time, the same way the events of specs ops the line would have... oh well, can't be having shades of grey, got to be clearly black and white, where the good guys can't do any wrong and live and learn from what they have done.

I wouldnt worry, people are wildly overstating the largely nonexistent nuance in the original.

Stef · Mar 3, 2020

Lord Vatek said:
And like Han not shooting first it's completely harmless and doesn't actually affect anything.

Apart from axing away a chunk of his character...

Lucreto · Mar 3, 2020

This is a non issue for me. For all we know this happened in the original but we never got to see that perspective.

I am sure that will play into this change in later chapters in the game and it will all make sense.

The complaint will then evaporate and not mentioned again like the bloody staircase being removed.

Vagrant717 · Mar 3, 2020

OldMuffin said:
Haven't played the original, and the whole thing with civilian casualties would have been more impactful for me, and would be something that would have stuck with me for a long time, the same way the events of specs ops the line would have... oh well, can't be having shades of grey, got to be clearly black and white, where the good guys can't do any wrong and live and learn from what they have done.

Yeah it really sucks. Going through the streets of Midgar and watching the destruction you caused firsthand could've been a powerful moment. But now the impact is lessened because of this change.

GongagaSOLDIER · Mar 3, 2020

I'm still confused as to how this turns the group from 'morally grey' to forcing a 'black and white' of villain and heroes. It doesn't in my opinion. They are still an ecological terrorist group who could be cutting off the only source of power an entire sector have, ruining countless lives. Just because the explosion wasn't them doesn't mean they aren't still morally grey. I get that the explosion feels like the bigger impact but they were gonna ruin lives either way.

MidweekCoyote · Mar 3, 2020

GongagaSOLDIER said:
I'm still confused as to how this turns the group from 'morally grey' to forcing a 'black and white' of villain and heroes. It doesn't in my opinion. They are still an ecological terrorist group who could be cutting off the only source of power an entire sector have, ruining countless lives. Just because the explosion wasn't them doesn't mean they aren't still morally grey. I get that the explosion feels like the bigger impact but they were gonna ruin lives either way.

And as someone pointed out earlier:

1. Jesse was surprised the bomb was "that strong" even in the original, saying she "may have made a mistake"
2. A different trailer shows they struggle with their decision after the fact, but continue despite it because: "Nothing was ever won without sacrifice." (Barret) That arguably makes Avalanche seem even worse.

This is a case where they simply expanded upon already existing elements from the original story. Again, overreaction and hyperbole galore.

If you want to be worried about something, be worried about Sephiroth and the ghost things.

Xeontech · Mar 3, 2020

Shinra those dirty bastards

Professor Beef · Mar 3, 2020

This also isn't even the only major thing Shinra does to it's citizens.

Stef said:
Apart from axing away a chunk of his character...

No it doesn't.

Stef · Mar 3, 2020

Professor Beef said:
No it doesn't.

It completely and utterly does.

But I'm not spending again time and efforts on this.

Professor Beef · Mar 3, 2020

Stef said:
It completely and utterly does.

But I'm not spending again time and efforts on this.

I'll take the W then

EarthPainting · Mar 3, 2020

The Han shooting first comparison seems pretty apt. It's not that consequential in the larger scheme of things, but it alters the characterisation to simplify the morality of the cast. You can feel the tonal change a little bit in the overall presentation too. I interpreted the original bombing mission as more high strung, by people in over their head. In the remake people seem more confident and playful, with their quips and banter. Both changes seem to complement each other though.

Changes were inevitable anyway, and arguably kind of the point of doing a complete remakes. The original had inherent ambiguity due to its low fidelity, lack of voice acting, and pretty iffy localisation. When you modernise it, you're going to have to clarify things and make more and harder creative decisions. We don't have to approve of the changes when all's said and done, but I think that until we see what they do with them and what it all builds towards, we should at the very least be open to them. This is not the original FF7, and that version's not going anywhere. Might as well treat this as its own thing.

Wireframe · Mar 3, 2020

Uthred said:
I wouldnt worry, people are wildly overstating the largely nonexistent nuance in the original.

Jessie: Oops... Hey, look at the news... What a blast. Think it was all because of my bomb? But all I really did was just make it like the computer told me. Oh no! I must've made a miscalculation somewhere. Hey, that was my bomb's debut. Makes me kinda proud.

I mean it's right there in the script. Her being proud is kinda contradictory though.

In the remake though, the previews have confirmed it is now definitely the case that the massive explosion was not intended.

Nanashrew · Mar 3, 2020

MidweekCoyote said:
And as someone pointed out earlier:

1. Jesse was surprised the bomb was "that strong" even in the original, saying she "may have made a mistake"
2. A different trailer shows they struggle with their decision after the fact, but continue despite it because: "Nothing was ever won without sacrifice." (Barret) That arguably makes Avalanche seem even worse.

This is a case where they simply expanded upon already existing elements from the original story. Again, overreaction and hyperbole galore.

If you want to be worried about something, be worried about Sephiroth and the ghost things.

It's done so poorly though. The fact is that we know, we have knowledge the cast does not. We have heavy-handed foreshadowing the cast won't learn about until possibly part 2. It's a haphazard attempt to create melodrama between you and the characters.

Leaving things a mystery with some bits of ambiguity leaves the viewer guessing and piecing together things as it goes. You don't know if she made a mistake making the bomb or if it was something or someone else. And that's perfectly fine, perfectly normal, especially at the beginning of the game where you haven't even begun to get into the large tangled web of Shinra.

Ayirek · Mar 3, 2020

DrDeckard said:
I'm shocked at the comments here...if you cant see the difference between a group of terrorists thinking they are doing the right thing for the greater good of the planet (their cause) to them not pulling it off and having the main bad guys doing it to remove their edge etc.

It completely changes the narrative.

Not really, Avalanche still went in fully intending on blowing up the reactor. As far as they know, they succeeded. They don't know Shinra did the most amount of damage. All they know is they planted a bomb and shit blew up, so to them it's mission accomplished. This does nothing to "remove their edge", it just serves to show just how fucked up the Shinra corporation truly is, and sets up the whole "dropping an entire chunk of the city onto the slums below, killing thousands" thing.

I really don't get why people are so bent out of shape about this, it fits the established narrative just fine.

LuckyLinus · Mar 3, 2020

I guess theyre trying to redeem the good guys, its a lame change but it doesnt bother me too much. I would prefer a narrative that would go for the opposite and balance out the nuances between good and evil.

ffvorax · Mar 3, 2020

MidweekCoyote said:
But... Nothing really changes either way. They fully intended for the bomb to blow. They are still convinced they blew up the reactor. Their "morally gray" attribute hasn't gone anywhere.

If anything, the only thing that the scene does is make Shinra look even worse than they were before and also 100% in line with their previously established character.

Edit: spelling

This.

ImaPlayThis · Mar 3, 2020

mudai said:
Yeah, I'm watching it too. He literally said that (I will put in in spoilers):

Basically, in chapter 2 the Avalanche members are questioning what just happened and Jessie is confused, saying that she followed the instructions and is surprised that the bomb had this big of an explosion, saying that maybe it reacted differently to the Mako. Apparently this is a big plot point in chapter 2, where they walk around and see the destruction they caused and come to the realization that they are terrorist, causing this much destruction, but in the end it's for the planet and a casulty they accept.

He's also showing some b-roll footage SE provided right now that takes place in chapter 2.

Oh god I can't wait for myself to laugh my arse off and then roll my eyes as this entire plot point falls flat as not only do I know they didn't actually do anything but later on I know they'll find out they didn't actually do anything oh god it's going to be so dumb

DrDeckard · Mar 3, 2020

ImaPlayThis said:
Oh god I can't wait for myself to laugh my arse off and then roll my eyes as this entire plot point falls flat as not only do I know they didn't actually do anything but later on I know they'll find out they didn't actually do anything oh god it's going to be so dumb

If they are stupid enough to have a face to face moment with shinra, and someone announces, or if they find out that they didn't actually blow it up...it's going to be mega lame.

FakePlasticTree · Mar 3, 2020

That's a shame as the thing with terrorists is that some people don't perceive terrorists as terrorists but freedom fighters, heroes etc. Removing that nuance to make it out like the heroes intentions were in the right seems iffy.

LookAtMeGo · Mar 3, 2020

Shinra with the false flag

Yarbskoo · Mar 3, 2020

Wireframe said:
Jessie: Oops... Hey, look at the news... What a blast. Think it was all because of my bomb? But all I really did was just make it like the computer told me. Oh no! I must've made a miscalculation somewhere. Hey, that was my bomb's debut. Makes me kinda proud.

I mean it's right there in the script. Her being proud is kinda contradictory though.

In the remake though, the previews have confirmed it is now definitely the case that the massive explosion was not intended.

I wonder what the Japanese version says. The English translation always comes across weird.

Phendrana · Mar 3, 2020

Professor Beef said:
I'll take the W then

The Johnstruct · Mar 3, 2020

Yarbskoo said:
I wonder what the Japanese version says. The English translation always comes across weird.

Here is the Japanese Script. You can find all of Jessie's lines searching for ジェシー.

ミッドガルの攻防１

G_Zero · Mar 3, 2020

Yarbskoo said:
I wonder what the Japanese version says. The English translation always comes across weird.

John Proxy said:
Here is the Japanese Script. You can find all of Jessie's lines searching for ジェシー.

ミッドガルの攻防１

Japanese said:
「うかつ……」
「見てよ、このニュース……。こんなに爆発してる」
「やっぱり、私の爆弾のせい？でも、このコンピュータの指示通り作っただけなのに」
「やだ！どっかで計算まちがったかしら」

Official translation said:
Oops...
Hey, look at the news... What a blast.
Think it was all because of my bomb? But all I really did was just make it like the computer told me.
Oh no! I must've made a miscalculation somewhere. Hey, that was my bomb's debut. Makes me kinda proud.

My translation said:
"That was careless..."
"Look at the news... This is such a big explosion."
"Is... Is this because my bomb was just that strong? But I built it exactly as the instructions on the computer said."
"I hate this! I wonder if there was an error in the instructions."

There is definitely zero pride. They seem to have randomly added a line at the end.

I guess it's also possible that they're working off of an older script, and that the line about Jessie being proud was removed from the Japanese script at some point.

Deleted member 227 · Mar 3, 2020

Why do people call Avalanche "incompetent" or saying the bomb didn't go off properly, ie a dud? It worked proper like they planned. They intended to blow the main core, putting the generator out of commission, not nuking the entire plant, causing a meltdown and blowing up the city. As others have pointed out Jessie even said so in the original.

"Muh complex storyline" only goes so far when "are we the baddies?" is such a run off the mill plotline now. Shinra abusing their protests to turn it in to false flag attacks to grab more power is so much more apt, because it shows they can just make any kind of rebellion an inconvenience to the layfolk making them pay the price, while laughing on their way to the bank.

King_Moc · Mar 3, 2020

Ayirek said:
Not really, Avalanche still went in fully intending on blowing up the reactor. As far as they know, they succeeded. They don't know Shinra did the most amount of damage. All they know is they planted a bomb and shit blew up, so to them it's mission accomplished. This does nothing to "remove their edge", it just serves to show just how fucked up the Shinra corporation truly is, and sets up the whole "dropping an entire chunk of the city onto the slums below, killing thousands" thing.

I really don't get why people are so bent out of shape about this, it fits the established narrative just fine.

Agreed. It changes nothing with avalanche, and merely accentuates Shinra's evilness, by basically making this a second version of the plate drop.

Yarbskoo · Mar 3, 2020

G_Zero said:
There is definitely zero pride. They seem to have randomly added a line at the end.

I guess it's also possible that they're working off of an older script, and that the line about Jessie being proud was removed from the Japanese script at some point.

Thanks for the translation, I keep forgetting I can't read japanese.

RagnarokX · Mar 3, 2020

G_Zero said:
There is definitely zero pride. They seem to have randomly added a line at the end.

I guess it's also possible that they're working off of an older script, and that the line about Jessie being proud was removed from the Japanese script at some point.

The "Hey, that was my bomb's big debut. Makes me kind a proud." line only pops up if you speak to her again. Whoever compiled that Japanese script probably just missed it.

The whole dialog about her messing up the bomb is missable if you don't talk to her before walking halfway into the room and hitting a story trigger.

ZeroDS · Mar 3, 2020

RagnarokX said:
The "Hey, that was my bomb's big debut. Makes me kind a proud." line only pops up if you speak to her again. Whoever compiled that Japanese script probably just missed it.

The whole dialog about her messing up the bomb is missable if you don't talk to her before walking halfway into the room and hitting a story trigger.

Yeah she says it makes her a little happy in the Japanese script

Neufr0 · Mar 3, 2020

mudai said:
Yeah, I'm watching it too. He literally said that (I will put in in spoilers):

Basically, in chapter 2 the Avalanche members are questioning what just happened and Jessie is confused, saying that she followed the instructions and is surprised that the bomb had this big of an explosion, saying that maybe it reacted differently to the Mako. Apparently this is a big plot point in chapter 2, where they walk around and see the destruction they caused and come to the realization that they are terrorist, causing this much destruction, but in the end it's for the planet and a casulty they accept.

He's also showing some b-roll footage SE provided right now that takes place in chapter 2.

I'm sorry but I still think it is dumb because the player knows that it is not their fault, so they still appear as the good guys. The fact that they accept their doing is kinda nuanced but it's still not enough in my opinion.
To be more specific, having Heidegger blow up the reactor? Ok fine I can see that but it would have worked better if it was reveled after at least chapter two or when the fallout of sector 7 happens. They still end up as the good guys but it is not clear for a while.

G_Zero · Mar 3, 2020

ZeroDS said:
Yeah she says it makes her a little happy in the Japanese script

Do you have a source for that? Because I'm 99% sure it isn't in the script linked earlier.

newmoneytrash · Mar 3, 2020

Neufr0 said:
I'm sorry but I still think it is dumb because the player knows that it is not their fault, so they still appear as the good guys. The fact that they accept their doing is kinda nuanced but it's still not enough in my opinion.

But, if they follow the main story beats of the original, they don't just accept their doing, they do it again. They are fully under the impression that they killed thousands of people and accept that as an acceptable sacrifice for their cause and actively go out, not only to repeat it, but to make it *bigger*. It undoes nothing.

Banzai · Mar 3, 2020

Ozymandias said:
Its never implied that Shinra blew up the reactor, it was just Jessie who messed up the bomb. And now this gives in into a plot hole in the shape of sector 7 plate coming down. If Avalanche was such a big problem that Shinra dropped the entire sector 7 plate to get rid of them and make them look like mass murderers to deter future resurgence, why didnt they just do that in sector 1? Why not blow them up as well? No, Shinra did what they did in sector 7 because Avalanche was a problem blowing up their reactors. This either changes a lot of things, or it will just be another plot hole that I'm sure this remake will be full of with them trying to stuff a ton of nonsensical filler into the story and changing fundamental plot points like this.

It is however said the Shinra Senior ruled people through fear. Whether he used that to justify building up more troops or intensifying war with Wutai was never said in the original, but that is exactly the kind of thing the remake could expand upon.

edit: you know what, just after i hit send i realized i remembered it wrong. Senior ruled with money, junior with fear.

Neufr0 · Mar 3, 2020

newmoneytrash said:
But, if they follow the main story beats of the original, they don't just accept their doing, they do it again. They are fully under the impression that they killed thousands of people and accept that as an acceptable sacrifice for their cause and actively go out, not only to repeat it, but to make it *bigger*. It undoes nothing.

That would be interesting but iirc the next reactor is the one where they meet the president so we are not safe from another self-destruct bullshit tbh. But I know what you mean and I didn't see it that way, that could be actually better.

AncientReptileBrain · Mar 3, 2020

Wow, that's super lame

Lee Chaolan · Mar 3, 2020

I mean, if you let the timer run down to 0, the bomb actually DOES explode, so pretty weird. xD

Leandras · Mar 3, 2020

Did the original address the civilian casualties? I know a short story spoke about it but cant remember the game going into detail of the scope of the explosion.

I like the change tbh. Shinra is definitely playing avelanche as a threat to society and not just their corporate interests. And yea they could've blown avelanche up in there but then theyd run the risk of just another group rising to take its place.

By making this terrorism/freedom fighting movement into an enemy of the people Shinra is effectively shutting down the discourse.

PancakeFlip · Mar 3, 2020

Leandras said:
Did the original adress the civilian casualties? I know a short story spoke about it but cant remember the game going into detail of the scope of the explosion.

I like the change tbh. Shinra is definitely playing avelanche as a threat to society and not just their corporate interests. And yea they could've blown avelanche up in there but then theyd run the risk of just another group rising to take its place.

By making this terrorism/freedom fighting movement into an enemy of the people Shinra is effectively shutting down the discourse.

You can count on one hand how many times it comes up again and its not particularly significant to anyone but Barrett's development.

Your second paragraph is probably why the change was added. As later in the original game Shinra wanted to use the party in a propaganda campaign to control the public opinion. Since this game isn't the full story I guess they wanted to have some of that element earlier in the story.

Asbsand · Mar 3, 2020

Be that as it may but it's a remake and not a re-release so you have to accept it will not be exactly the same plot as before.

They did it probably becuase Final Fantasy Committee Vetos by Nomura-san decided against the original plot for: political implications, character-shine-moments and character branding.

That or a third suggestion which is that the ever so timid Sony anno 2020 was like "Oh b-b-b-but that's controversial!"

Personally, I like stories that have serious flaws in their heroes, that you want them to shine through as morally good as they can be, but there were just radical measures taken throughout the plot that happened and puts into perspective what heroism means and stuff. I think the original had that. The new one doesn't? Fine, but it also means there's a bunch of us who are now less impressed by it, because there's a sea of storytelling about "virtuous good guys doing the right thing" to the point where it almost feels like a form of propaganda, like that "Get On Moving" song from the 90s about being desperately happy when people were actually depressed.

Dream Machine · Mar 3, 2020

yeah, that's a bad change

Easy_D · Mar 3, 2020

Watching it in context it looks more like the damage was already done and Shinra just decided to speed the process up in hopes of killing off Avalanche

Rosebud · Mar 3, 2020

That's awful, I'm kinda disappointed.

Looks like everyone has to be a saint or devil these days.

Square-Enix just pulled a "Han shot first" in the Final Fantasy VII Remake / Spoilers.

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