captive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,110
Houston
Ohhh exciting. I'm buying in May, so we'll see what gets revealed In March. The Model X is, IMO, one of the ugliest vehicles ever made. I hope they go a different direction with the Y
It uses 75% of the parts of the model 3. I'd expect it to essentially be a taller model 3.

You have such a holier than though attitude all the time in any thread you participate in, I hope you realize this. I did go to the site and look at the price, i wasn't just spewing "bullshit". Also your chart to try and show bullshit of dealers isn't saying "Here's your MSRP minus gas savings".

The final sticker price of the car + interest is the real cost of the car, so you can't just say "Well take gas off and here's your final cost". You've already paid interest on that supposed savings.
I don't really give a fuck what you think of me. Also I get extremely tired of people like you acting like you know everything about Tesla, when you clearly don't. It happens in every Tesla thread.

'take gas off and here's your price' except that that's not what Tesla is doing. Tesla also provides a loan estimator, right there on the site. I'm not really sure what you want from them. but I get the sense it doesn't matter what they do, you won't be happy with it.
 

Pagusas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,876
Frisco, Tx
I'd really hope the average consumer can look at a car price and understand there are other expenses than just the sticker price to consider, and any estimated savings stuff is just marketing. I think sometimes we expect too little of people.
 

Deleted member 33887

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 20, 2017
2,109
No profit in Q1 is because of one time charges (like the $920 mil debt payment they have to pay).

It's disingenuous to call it a one time charge when it's less than 10% of their debt. There will be many more of these "one time charges." Anyways, Mr. Musk was the one who said they would be profitable for every quarter in Q3 2018. Clearly not.
 

joecanada

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,651
Canada
No its not. You'd have to be an abject moron to confuse what your paying VS what their estimating you'd save.
When we did the math on what my wife drives and how much she's spending every week in gas, their estimate was 4k less over the same time frame and I made the assumption that gas prices would continue to stay at ~2 a gallon for the 6 years, which is what they use for the estimate. And that doesn't even include, oil changes, and services on ICE cars. For instance my wife's timing belt was 1500 bucks. Her regular 60k mile service was fucking 700 bucks.
Service on the tesla is every four years battery fluid at 850 bucks.

Also your comment on insurance is factually incorrect.

This guy also just put out some math too.

I'm going to watch this video later but my concern was more like I just read an article saying charging would run 3-4 dollars per 100km (Canadian) I think .... my civic only uses 7L / 100 km so maybe 10 dollars .... this was less of a saving than i originally had estimated. They said some quick charge stations charge 10 bucks ! That's zero savings for me unless I missed a step
Edit- well not zero savings obviously but I guess the idea is not to use charge stations every time ?
 

Riderz1337

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,913
Using the dealership model as a comparison, where they hide their invoice price behind MSRP and marketed "invoice price", I see Tesla's marketing practice about the same level as them. It's not ideal, but as an informed consumer, it doesn't really matter 'cause you can find out that information anyway. (Sidenote, you can pick up a brand new 2018 Audi A6 $20K off MSRP right now).
The new gen A6 just came out so I'm assuming they want to get rid of the 2018s now
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,252
I'm going to watch this video later but my concern was more like I just read an article saying charging would run 3-4 dollars per 100km (Canadian) I think .... my civic only uses 7L / 100 km so maybe 10 dollars .... this was less of a saving than i originally had estimated. They said some quick charge stations charge 10 bucks ! That's zero savings for me unless I missed a step
Edit- well not zero savings obviously but I guess the idea is not to use charge stations every time ?

It costs me like $1/100km charging at home off-peak. That's where the biggest savings are.

The fast charge stations are about the same as gas but those are only for long trips or emergencies.

Although there's a bunch of free ones in the GTA. You learn to abuse those while you can lol.

Edit:

If you're in Ontario, Ottawa Hydro has a calculator.

https://hydroottawa.com/about/our-company/electric-vehicles

Model 3 is about 15kWh/100km
 
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Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,902
Nothing says unlimited demand and growth potential like price cuts, layoffs and closing your physical presence.

How do you reach the mass market if people cant test drive or interact with the car?

Do people here really believe that the majority of car buyers will just put down 35+K on a car without every interacting with one?

Its boggling.
 

dallow_bg

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,742
texas
How do you reach the mass market if people cant test drive or interact with the car?

Do people here really believe that the majority of car buyers will just put down 35+K on a car without every interacting with one?

Its boggling.

I mean, isn't it working?
They legally can't have a "dealership" here in Texas and I see tons of them on the road while coworkers all put down reservations.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
Why would you pay $35k for such a basic, stripped down beater

If that's your budget, there are dozens of better cars out there with more features that drive better. I think the S is a fantastic car, but the base Model 3 leaves me wanting.
Not electric. You underestimate how much an electric car is worth in its basic function: being a low maintenance car that takes you from point a to point b for everyday use.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,902
I mean, isn't it working?
They legally can't have a "dealership" here in Texas and I see tons of them on the road while coworkers all put down reservations.

They literally are not selling to the mass market they are still primarly selling to enthusiasts (there is a reason why a majority of their US sales are jsut in califonria). Unless tesla wants to stay a enthusiasts car company, they will need the ability to let people test cars out before buying.
 

shinra-bansho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,964
You can test it if you buy it first, duh.
Just commit to taking delivery of a $35K purchase sight-unseen first.

Also, I figured announcing this, along with apparently new production guidance, and profit guidance... might warrant a form 8K, rather than a closed conference call, but apparently not.
 

dallow_bg

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,742
texas
They literally are not selling to the mass market they are still primarly selling to enthusiasts (there is a reason why a majority of their US sales are jsut in califonria). Unless tesla wants to stay a enthusiasts car company, they will need the ability to let people test cars out before buying.

No one that I know who owns one is a car enthusiast. They just have money and wanted something cool and fun, or really hate gas.

Look at companies like Carvana whose whole business is selling used cars that are delivered/picked up after purchase without ever seeing it. They seem to be doing well too.

I don't think it's that big a deal anymore. Especially with younger buyers.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,902
No one that I know who owns one is a car enthusiast. They just have money and wanted something cool and fun, or really hate gas.

Look at companies like Carvana whose whole business is selling used cars that are delivered/picked up after purchase without ever seeing it. They seem to be doing well too.

I don't think it's that big a deal anymore. Especially with younger buyers.

Are you saying these are the majority of car sales? Is Tesla content with the current number of sales for their cars? You do know how many cars overall are made globally every year and sold right?
 

lint2015

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,845
NPersonally, I don't want a Model 3 due to the only visual interface being the giant iPad which seems distracting, especially considering how easy it is to exceed speed limit in a Tesla (you don't even have engine noise to get you to feel that).
I don't know about the Model 3 specifically because the speed is displayed on the centre display rather than behind the wheel, but it's no easier to accidentally exceed the speed limit on other Teslas than any other car.
 

m_shortpants

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,685
How do you reach the mass market if people cant test drive or interact with the car?

Do people here really believe that the majority of car buyers will just put down 35+K on a car without every interacting with one?

Its boggling.

They are constrained by supply, not demand. They rely on word of mouth rather than people coming in to test drive
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,902
Have their sales been trending down?

You do know the massive difference between Tesla sale numbers and the general number of cars sold worldwide or even just the US right?

Topping overall car sales =\= Topping EV car sales.

They are constrained by supply, not demand. They rely on word of mouth rather than people coming in to test drive
Supply constrained companies dont cut prices across the board.. This is like economics 101.
 

dallow_bg

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,742
texas
You do know the massive difference between Tesla sale numbers and the general number of cars sold worldwide or even just the US right?

Topping overall car sales =\= Topping EV car sales.


Supply constrained companies dont cut prices. This is like economics 101.

They aren't demand-starved.
They selling them as fast as they are manufactured.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,902
They aren't demand-starved.
They selling them as fast as they are manufactured.

If they are selling them as fast as they are manufactured, why do they need to announce and release a cheaper car when they still only have the current production capabilities. New factories are not up yet and wont be for a while, so they are literally going to produce cars that make less money?

But they are supposedly supply constrained?
 

m_shortpants

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,685
You do know the massive difference between Tesla sale numbers and the general number of cars sold worldwide or even just the US right?

Topping overall car sales =\= Topping EV car sales.


Supply constrained companies dont cut prices across the board.. This is like economics 101.

Not when you can have a wider range of price options. Third degree price discrimination is basic economics. Broadens your potential market. It's why airline seats aren't all the same price.
 

dallow_bg

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,742
texas
If they are selling them as fast as they are manufactured, why do they need to announce and release a cheaper car when they still only have the current production capabilities. New factories are not up yet and wont be for a while, so they are literally going to produce cars that make less money?

But they are supposedly supply constrained?
No idea. But that's what's happening.

They also got rid of the cheaper Model S options so entry price on those is now much, much higher.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,902
Not when you can have a wider range of price options. Third degree price discrimination is basic economics. Broadens your potential market. It's why airline seats aren't all the same price.

If they are not having demand issues and are having supply issues, why would you ever reduce prices across the board? You think the Switch got a discount when Nintendo wasn't able to manufacture enough of them to satisfy demand?

Airline seats do not have the same demand and supply dynamics of a car....they aren't manufacturing anything its a service indsutry, and not a commodity like a car is. Why would you even compare them?
 

m_shortpants

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,685
If they are not having demand issues and are having supply issues, why would you ever reduce prices across the board? You think the Switch got a discount when Nintendo wasn't able to manufacture enough of them to satisfy demand?

Airline seats do not have the same demand and supply dynamics of a car....they aren't manufacturing anything its a service indsutry, and not a commodity like a car is. Why would you even compare them?

That's not how supply and demand works. Go read about first and third degree price discrimination and come back, thanks.
 

lint2015

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,845
Yeap, and what's interesting is that it's not like there is nothing to criticize about Tesla, but complaining about the car being more efficient and about cost savings is ridiculous.
It's pretty disingenuous to put that in as if it's an instant saving when it doesn't affect the price you pay for the vehicle or loan. I don't see what's wrong with pointing that out, they really should have a separate page that let's people calculate and compare savings from their existing or prospective ICE vehicle based on their usage. People are smart enough to do the rest themselves.

It says "purchase price" right in the middle followed by "price after estimated savings" at the bottom. There's nothing deceptive or shady about that. It's not an asterisk and fine print at the bottom or some bullshit fake numbers.
Most people look at the bottom price for the final total purchase price, as it tends to be the price after all applicable fees and savings. That's why it's disingenuous.

orly? guess you haven't been to a dealership in a while.
sleSXCjh.jpg

is this disingenuous too?
That's a seperate info sticker explaining fuel savings, which is what people are suggesting Tesla should do rather than putting it into the purchase price.
 

Yuri_G

Member
Oct 30, 2017
102
If they are selling them as fast as they are manufactured, why do they need to announce and release a cheaper car when they still only have the current production capabilities. New factories are not up yet and wont be for a while, so they are literally going to produce cars that make less money?

But they are supposedly supply constrained?

They are doing it now because they can and it's been promised since the car was announced. Damned if you do damned if you don't.

"Tesla will never release the 35k Model 3, they're doomed!"
"Tesla had to release the 35k Model 3 because there's no demand, they're doomed!"

They iterate and make cost savings each week. The first versions will be the least profitable, then the margins will grow from there just like the earlier, more expensive versions of the 3. It's the same reason they weren't profitable in the first two quarters of 2018 and then became profitable Q3 and Q4 2018.
 

Balbanes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,214
Yeah, it's a typo. I meant the Bolt!

But I kind of disagree with the Bolt being an econobox. It has some pretty snazzy features built into it -- the 360 camera view!! -- and is definitely a tech car for the millennial generation. I suggest watching some reviews on it before judging it so harshly?

At any rate, even the standard M3 is going to be cut down a bit, so we'll see how it fairs once some reviews start popping up.


Agreed. It's fine thinking the bolt is ugly (I don't) or not wanting to buy one, but the vibe of this thread is so tribal and toxic. Any electric car being purchased is good for all electric car owners and the environment.. this isn't politics or sports.

I hope the model 3 does extremely well and puts even more pressure on other car manufacturers.
 

shinra-bansho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,964
They aren't demand-starved.
They selling them as fast as they are manufactured.
To justify their valuation, as erratic as it is, they should be looking to increase revenue by around 5.5-6x, and achieve operating profit margins of around 12%. So circa 2M cars per annum at a $60k asp, on an ongoing basis.

Their current poor manufacturing skill and inability to serve 3 year old preorders isn't really ultimately relevant; Tesla is meant to be a growth story company.

None of this news really cries out growth story.

What car manufacturers don't do this...
Other car manufacturers don't have a forward P/E of like 50 or whatever ridiculous number it is right now.
 
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Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,902
They are doing it now because they can and it's been promised since the car was announced. Damned if you do damned if you don't.

"Tesla will never release the 35k Model 3, they're doomed!"
"Tesla had to release the 35k Model 3 because there's no demand, they're doomed!"

They iterate and make cost savings each week. The first versions will be the least profitable, then the margins will grow from there just like the earlier, more expensive versions of the 3. It's the same reason they weren't profitable in the first two quarters of 2018 and then became profitable Q3 and Q4 2018.

But thats not what was being argued? The people that responded literally said they couldn't make enough cars to satisfy demand. IF that was true, they would not be needing a cheaper car to sell, they dont have extra production capacity yet. so they are going to introduce a cheaper car instead of making the higher priced cars that they couldn't keep the supply up for?

Either one or the other is true, they need to expand with the 35K car because demand for the more expensive cars is diminishing or they are supply constrained and should make more of the higher margin cars to sell. They literally cannot be doing both because they only have so much production capablity. One will diminish the other.
 

Ryno23

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
1,097
How do you reach the mass market if people cant test drive or interact with the car?

Do people here really believe that the majority of car buyers will just put down 35+K on a car without every interacting with one?

Its boggling.

The cars are honestly just that fucking good. They don't need to spend a penny on advertising, never have and and never will because every single Tesla on the road easily sells another 5-10 through word of mouth, it's what they have relied on since day 1. The interaction comes when someone gets one then all their neighbors, friends, and relatives get to see first hand all the stuff they read online about Tesla and electric cars in general are bullshit and they are basically better in every single way. 500k people put down a reservation for Model 3 before ever seeing it in person(150k before ever seeing it period). I know this reads like hyperbole but it's true and what is happening, don't believe me or anyone else signing the praises go schedule a test drive I suspect your tone will change.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,902
The cars are honestly just that fucking good. They don't need to spend a penny on advertising, never have and and never will because every single Tesla on the road easily sells another 5-10 through word of mouth, it's what they have relied on since day 1. The interaction comes when someone gets one then all their neighbors, friends, and relatives get to see first hand all the stuff they read online about Tesla and electric cars in general are bullshit and they are basically better in every single way. 500k people put down a reservation for Model 3 before ever seeing it in person(150k before ever seeing it period). I know this reads like hyperbole but it's true and what is happening, don't believe me or anyone else signing the praises go schedule a test drive I suspect your tone will change.

You do know 500K is a drop in a bucket compared to global or even US car sales when you want to talk about the mass market?

When you talk about people evangalizing the car to their familiy and neighbors as the primary way to market, thats still an enthusiasts market...
 

Ryno23

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
1,097
You do know 500K is a drop in a bucket compared to global or even US car sales when you want to talk about the mass market?

When you talk about people evangalizing the car to their familiy and neighbors as the primary way to market, thats still an enthusiasts market...

They did ~100k in 2017 ~250k last year, will do ~500k this year, will do ~1 million in 2020 and 1.5 million in 2021.... 1 company can only expand so fast lmao what in the world are you expecting?

What this is accomplishing is pushing forward the advent of a completely electic car fleet by probably a decade at least, this is forcing all the other manufacturers to react and change/accelerate plans. It's a good thing buddy(unless you are concerned about oil company profits??)
 

dallow_bg

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,742
texas
There's no way we'd have so many electric options today (though still not enough) if it weren't Tesla. They weren't supposed to become this successful and here we are.

I've no idea why you're criticizing them for not being the size of GM already.
 

Hesemonni

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,974
It says "purchase price" right in the middle followed by "price after estimated savings" at the bottom. There's nothing deceptive or shady about that. It's not an asterisk and fine print at the bottom or some bullshit fake numbers.
Lol wtf. I thought you were bullshitting, but they really include estimated gas savings in the price. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
 

joecanada

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,651
Canada
It costs me like $1/100km charging at home off-peak. That's where the biggest savings are.

The fast charge stations are about the same as gas but those are only for long trips or emergencies.

Although there's a bunch of free ones in the GTA. You learn to abuse those while you can lol.

Edit:

If you're in Ontario, Ottawa Hydro has a calculator.

https://hydroottawa.com/about/our-company/electric-vehicles

Model 3 is about 15kWh/100km

Ok yeah BC should have potentially even cheaper electric. So what are the actual maintenance cost I'm assuming brakes and tires is a given. Do they require an actual tuneup or something ?
I've had Hondas that went 300k km with only routine maintenance but I'm not a denier just want to do some math too
 
OP
OP

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,051
There's no way we'd have so many electric options today (though still not enough) if it weren't Tesla. They weren't supposed to become this successful and here we are.

I've no idea why you're criticizing them for not being the size of GM already.

It's partially because they've been at the "start-up" phase for years. They've squandered their years while the competition is catching up.

I've made this prediction before, and I'll make it again: the Honda Insight is Honda's trojan horse for a pure EV vehicle at the low-30s or high-20s price point. Everything about the drive-train says EV-compatible.
 

Ryno23

Banned
Dec 13, 2017
1,097
It's partially because they've been at the "start-up" phase for years. They've squandered their years while the competition is catching up.

I've made this prediction before, and I'll make it again: the Honda Insight is Honda's trojan horse for a pure EV vehicle at the low-30s or high-20s price point. Everything about the drive-train says EV-compatible.

If you look at the specs, pricing, and numbers for planned production and capabilities of producing said production... The competition is barely catching up to 2013 Tesla. The competition is embarrassingly far behind 2019 Tesla... It turns out decades of experience making gas cars does not translate to making electric, in fact the entire culture and history surrounding it causes nothing but compromises and half measures to protect profits of said gas cars because priorities are not in line company wide. NIO and Rivian will be far more formadable competition and have much better chance of success IMO.
 

SupremeWu

Banned
Dec 19, 2017
2,856
How does maintenance work with Teslas anyway. Can you get normal maintenance and repairs done anywhere or is it like a 4 month wait list.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,045
Lol wtf. I thought you were bullshitting, but they really include estimated gas savings in the price. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

This actually isn't a bad thing, people need to stop thinking the cost of a car is only sticker price.

Cars have a lot of costs including hidden ones to society, but that is getting off-topic.
 

darkazcura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,944
since apparently some of you are incapable of going to tesla's website to look for yourself, I did it for you.

here you go:
from step 1 through 5 this box outlined in red, for the visually impaired, literally never changes, in the sense that purchase price is always there.
UfJUfiah.jpg


once finished you have your purchase price underneath the estimated price after savings.
ZOcfrsKh.png


and finally if you expand the "show details" from the above image, you get the line by line breakdown. In which it clearly stats all estimated savings are after purchase price, again, outlined in red for the visually impaired.
66Hrh1Ch.png

at no point, is estimated price on screen WITHOUT the purchase price, nor is it ever implied that you'll somehow be paying less than whats listed on the purchase price.

Furthermore as an actual owner of a tesla, the purchase process is clear as day with regard to the price. I put in my 2500 bucks for the reservation. As soon as that happened, i was taken to another page where i submitted my drivers license and insurance. I was then presented with the estimated final price (note this is not the actual final price as they have to generate this document based on your state, for state taxes and destination fees and what not) This took a few weeks as the car wasn't ready anyway it wasn't really a big deal. Once there, it was clear as day the price i was going to pay with taxes and destination fee, all minus the 2500 bucks i already paid.

anyone saying this isn't a clear process is just flat out wrong.

And finally, the estimate Tesla uses is pretty conservative IMO. The only thing i disagree with is they use premium gas. Some people use premium in their BMWs and Audis, some don't. They're using .13 cents per kWh, which is the national average. I typically pay about .09 cents per kWh. (once my solar panels are operational that will go up, but i will also get credits for over production and i'll be driving from my own power and much less cost.)

xI4VcAOh.jpg

since december 30th we've put that many miles on the car. The car says we've used 743 kWh (note i would like to find a proper monitor for my charger so i can see what i've put into the car in kWh as there is some efficiency loss, but as of now all i have to go on is what the car says) 743 kWh * .09 cents is.... $66.87 and thats actually calculating the charge i put on it free destination charging in Austin and free super charging on the way back to houston. So what we've paid is actually less than that.
An ICE car driving those same miles, generously getting combined 30mpg at 2 dollars a gallon will have paid $223.33

throw in ICE maintenance, that tesla leaves out of their estimate, and I would hazard that over its lifespan depending on how much you drive, a Tesla could be compared with the TCO of a car ~10k cheaper if not more.


orly? guess you haven't been to a dealership in a while.
sleSXCjh.jpg
is this disingenuous too?

"let me go talk to my manager"
"idunno if we can do that price"
"its already a great deal, its below list!"

fuck off with that bullshit.

There's an absolute huge difference in stating what your estimated savings are and baking the estimated savings into the final price. At no point is anyone ever spending 61k on that car and it is completely disingenous to write that number anywhere on their website even if they make it 'clear'. No one is handing you $4300 back to bring your long term cost down to $61k, which is what their pricing implies. If they listed the gas savings separately without baking it into the price, no one would call it out.

It just looks silly. Just list the price as $65k after credits with a potential savings of $4300 over 6 years. That would actually be transparent. The second they write the $61k number is the second it becomes disingenuous and bad business practice. That's not a real number. You still spent $65k after 6 years.

I get wanting to illustrate the benefits of electric over ICE, but this isn't the way to do it.

This isn't even getting into the fact that they aren't even including the destination fee in the purchase price OR the 'final price after 6 years' which illustrates they really don't have much of an interest in being transparent in their pricing.
 
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Oct 31, 2017
1,856
Lol wtf. I thought you were bullshitting, but they really include estimated gas savings in the price. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I have a Chevy Bolt, and save around $1800 per year on gas vs cost of charging compared to the GTI it replaced, JUST on my commute. And that's not even taking account the fact that about half of my charging is done at work for free.

So yes, savings vs gas are very real.