Tesla news! Standard range Model 3 released, company likely not profitable this quarter

captive · Mar 3, 2019

The Teachinator said:
I'm not excusing it. What I am saying is that that price complete DISAPPEARS from the process after you actually select the BUY option. The FULL purchase price is also displayed on the screen at the same time as the cost savings price. Also, having owned the car , no oil changes, no gas, no transmission, and regenerative breaking could result in some pretty HUGE cost savings.

My car charges in my garage and I have seen perhaps, a $20-$30 increase in my monthly utility bill which when compared to what we were previously driving, a Honda Pilot, has saved us a ton of cash. I don't see the issue with them marketing on this at all. The savings are real when compared to an ICE vehicle.

its amazing that this is what this thread turned into. this literally happens in every thread. the last one was about how even though they've been profitable for 2 quarters they aren't growing fast enough, maybe even lying about their profitabilty, and of course the "mythical 35k version is never going to come out" (hows that hot take look now?) posters. gaurantee you can find multiple posts with each of these in them in that last thread.

Rental said:
Read earlier another accident is being investigated where a Tesla went under the trailer of a truck. Apparently it was similar to one that occurred a few years back so they are looking to see if the auto pilot was at fault.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/03/feds-investigating-deadly-friday-tesla-crash-in-florida/?amp=1

So many issues going on at this company. People were predicting tough times ahead but things seem to be snowballing quickly at the moment.

how does a car go under a truck? Even using EAP you should be paying attention to the road. I dont know how people do it, i didnt buy it but i used it during the trial the damn thing beeps at you incessantly if you take your hands off the wheel, or even with your hands on the wheel but aren't applying enough pressure.

Mcfrank said:
The annual tag renewal is also a lot higher (at least in California). I just renewed on my Model 3 which I got last march and it was 4x the cost of my previous car (an 05 Corolla). The increase in insurance and tags exactly off-sets the savings I have from gas. I really do wish Tesla would stop listing the prices that way. It made sense with the tax rebates since that was a relatively quick turn around, but with gas savings, there are just way too many other variables for it to be an honest representation of the cost of the vehicle. It is one of the few criticisms of Tesla on this forum that I find legitimate.

say what? That royally sucks. I'm not aware of any different price for registration tag in texas. But that's some bullshit, CA has to have a special blend of gas and they tax it so its extra expensive, then they essentially punish EV drivers for not having to buy the gas?

darkazcura said:
How would you feel if after a solar panel company installed your panels, they told you the price after 5 years was approximately -$5000 (assuming you paid $1000 per year for electricity prior to the installation of the panels)? What do you think representing the price as -$5000 implies rather than representing it as a savings of $5000?

There is a big difference between calling something "savings" and calling something "price after savings".

um, as someone that has solar panels and got quotes from multiple companies. thats actually not that far off from how many of them do it. They say the cost is X that you pay out of pocket, minus 30% federal tax credit of install, then many of them write a lengthy reports estimating how much electricity is going to cost over 10-20 years compared to the cost of solar install they've quoted you. Most of them, as well as many of the actual solar owners i've talked to put the ROI at about 8 to 9 years.

S1lentSymph0ny said:
Fanboys always gonna take things personally instead of rationally.

sorry i forgot my requisite disclaimer for every tesla thread:
I'm a model 3 owner
Elon Musk is a dick
Elon Musk should treat his employees better
Tesla should treat their employees better
the messaging on this FSD and EAP announcement from the other day is fucked up, they need to get their messaging straight. https://www.tesla.com/blog/upgradin...qD8fhiJJ2HiAHC4s8zTpv9u0Y3XMuCfC51DY40RX0yn8o
and i have two complaints about the car itself, the frunk takes two pushes to close for some reason. And the classic metal station on the streaming stations includes non metal bands like motley crue, van halen and other hair metal bands.

TarpitCarnivore i finally remembered you were the dude criticizing my brisket from two photos. I'm sorry you feel like im a dick or whatever. feel free to PM me to discuss anything. I am passionate about certain things, but its not my intention to antagonize you or any other posters. I feel if we were having a discussion in person it would come across a lot differently.

Kendrid · Mar 3, 2019

In the Chicago market they have removed two stores from the test drive locations, Oakbrook mall and one downtown.

If true I find this a bit of an odd way to handle repairs:

Tesla will have to significantly increase its services capabilities since it won't have stores and have to cover all 50 states and the service will be provided at the car's location, not a Tesla site. Fortunately, an electric car is much easier to service than an internal combustion engine car.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckj...5000-model-3-brilliant-move-or-hail-mary/amp/

The Teachinator · Mar 3, 2019

Kendrid said:
In the Chicago market they have removed two stores from the test drive locations, Oakbrook mall and one downtown.

If true I find this a bit of an odd way to handle repairs:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckj...5000-model-3-brilliant-move-or-hail-mary/amp/

Most of the stores are NOT service centers. My understanding is that service centers that might also have showrooms attaches are not effected by this.

Kernel · Mar 3, 2019

I just gotta say captive does the Lord's work in Tesla threads.

Cheers

captive · Mar 3, 2019

The Teachinator said:
Most of the stores are NOT service centers. My understanding is that service centers that might also have showrooms attaches are not effected by this.

yes, when you hear show rooms think Apple store. usually found in malls, expensive rent and such for not much gain if their own analytics are saying that people are buying without test drives.

dont know why they wouldnt just make show rooms in their service centers. The one in houston is freaking gigantic, plenty of room for their show room and they already have the cars there or space at least to host cars for test drives.

Ryno23 · Mar 3, 2019

Kendrid said:
In the Chicago market they have removed two stores from the test drive locations, Oakbrook mall and one downtown.

If true I find this a bit of an odd way to handle repairs:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckj...5000-model-3-brilliant-move-or-hail-mary/amp/

They are massively expanding their mobile service fleet. Due to how simple and few parts the cars have majority of repairs can easily be done on site. Better and easier for customer, can be serviced at home or while at work. Cheaper and more efficient for Tesla. Win win

I don't think people are really grasping what is happening here. Don't be shocked when they start offering at home test drives. They are streamlining and disrupting the entire auto industry, becoming the Amazon of cars. The 35k Model 3 was throwing the gauntlet down and the rest of the industry had to collectively shit their pants... No one can compete at that price and offer anything of remotely similar value, not for at least another 5 years.

The Teachinator · Mar 3, 2019

captive said:
yes, when you hear show rooms think Apple store. usually found in malls, expensive rent and such for not much gain if their own analytics are saying that people are buying without test drives.

dont know why they wouldnt just make show rooms in their service centers. The one in houston is freaking gigantic, plenty of room for their show room and they already have the cars there or space at least to host cars for test drives.

The one by me does have a small showroom. I wonder if that element of it stays in tact?

Kendrid · Mar 3, 2019

Ryno23 said:
They are massively expanding their mobile service fleet. Due to how simple and few parts the cars have majority of repairs can easily be done on site. Better and easier for customer, can be serviced at home or while at work. Cheaper and more efficient for Tesla. Win win

I don't think people are really grasping what is happening here. Don't be shocked when they start offering at home test drives. They are streamlining and disrupting the entire auto industry, becoming the Amazon of cars. The 35k Model 3 was throwing the gauntlet down and the rest of the industry had to collectively shit their pants... No one can compete at that price and offer anything of remotely similar value, not for at least another 5 years.

Thanks I hadnt seen that. Just yesterday my wife said it would be cool if they would do at home test drives. Hyundai has that as an option.

Pagusas · Mar 3, 2019

Kendrid said:
FYI we test drove cars today (Camry Hybrid, Accord Hybrid, Sonata) and I inquired about the Rav4 hybrid. A month ago it was on their website and I saw that my local dealer had 10 on order. From what I had read and seen on YouTube it was supposed to be out this month.
The dealer said they have been informed it is now being released "summer".

After the test drives for us it is either the Accord hybrid, Rav4 hybrid or Model 3. We will be driving the 3 in the next few weeks and we aren't looking to purchase until summer, although sooner if we choose the 3 so we don't lose out on the tax credit.

Our dealership already has 3 hybrids in and is taking orders. 1 customer already has one. We are in Dallas though and the new HQ is litteralky right next to the dealership.

Kendrid · Mar 3, 2019

Pagusas said:
Our dealership already has 3 hybrids in and is taking orders. 1 customer already has one. We are in Dallas though and the new HQ is litteralky right next to the dealership.

Thanks for the info, the person I spoke with must be incorrect.

Pagusas · Mar 3, 2019

Kendrid said:
Thanks for the info, the person I spoke with must be incorrect.

Likely they were right, its been a VERY slow release for the Hybrids, and us being next to the HQ were all the US testing is done helps us get in stock way early. Right now you cant even order them on Toyota.com, but select dealerships are now able to sell them. I highly recommend waiting on them, as they are great, and this from a person who normally dislike's toyota overall. I'm also coming from a Sonata Hybrid. Good car that served me well, but I hate the most recent models looks (something very wrong with Hyundai's current design crew, they are leagues behind where they were just 5 years ago)

Kendrid · Mar 3, 2019

Pagusas said:
Likely they were right, its been a VERY slow release for the Hybrids, and us being next to the HQ were all the US testing is done helps us get in stock way early. Right now you cant even order them on Toyota.com, but select dealerships are now able to sell them. I highly recommend waiting on them, as they are great, and this from a person who normally dislike's toyota overall. I'm also coming from a Sonata Hybrid. Good car that served me well, but I hate the most recent models looks (something very wrong with Hyundai's current design crew, they are leagues behind where they were just 5 years ago)

We aren't buying until probably June so hopefully by then they will be available here. We currently have a 2012 Camry XLE Hybrid and were not impressed with the 2019 Camry XLE Hybrid. My wife & I both preferred the Accord EX-L hybrid by quite a large margin. The tech, displays, options, etc in the Accord were "better" for less MSRP.
The Sonata limited was fine but nothing special. Not a bad car at all but I'd rather spend more and get a Honda.
We will be scheduling a Model 3 test drive for the next week or two. I want to get it done just in case they close all of the stores in our area.

Ryno23 · Mar 3, 2019

Kendrid said:
We aren't buying until probably June so hopefully by then they will be available here. We currently have a 2012 Camry XLE Hybrid and were not impressed with the 2019 Camry XLE Hybrid. My wife & I both preferred the Accord EX-L hybrid by quite a large margin. The tech, displays, options, etc in the Accord were "better" for less MSRP.
The Sonata limited was fine but nothing special. Not a bad car at all but I'd rather spend more and get a Honda.
We will be scheduling a Model 3 test drive for the next week or two. I want to get it done just in case they close all of the stores in our area.

You mentioned Chicago area right? The Westmont store is also a service center that handles the whole area, it 100% wont be closing. I took my test drive there.

Kendrid · Mar 3, 2019

Ryno23 said:
You mentioned Chicago area right? The Westmont store is also a service center that handles the whole area, it 100% wont be closing. I took my test drive there.

Yes that is probably where we will test drive the 3.

GearDraxon · Mar 3, 2019

captive said:
say what? That royally sucks. I'm not aware of any different price for registration tag in texas. But that's some bullshit, CA has to have a special blend of gas and they tax it so its extra expensive, then they essentially punish EV drivers for not having to buy the gas?

I don't think this is correct - according to the online calculator from CA, the tag for an EV is (very slightly) less than for a gas-powered vehicle of the same model year and price. That poster seems to be comparing the tag cost for their ~13 year old car to the cost for a brand new one, which will be much more.

Edit: the surcharge that the poster below mentions appears to take effect on MY2020 vehicles.

StopMakingSense · Mar 3, 2019

captive said:
say what? That royally sucks. I'm not aware of any different price for registration tag in texas. But that's some bullshit, CA has to have a special blend of gas and they tax it so its extra expensive, then they essentially punish EV drivers for not having to buy the gas?

This misunderstands a few things. The gas tax directly pays for roads maintenance, and as such is a tax on actual usage. The registration surcharge for EVs is designed to make up for the expanding shortfall caused by the increase in EV use, especially in CA, since their usage of the roads isn't directly taxed in any other way.

Unless you expect states to start doing odometer reports every year, I would expect other states to follow suit over time.

All that said, this won't be applied to 2020. The poster was just seeing the difference in registration on an older car versus a newer car.

(also there isn't any special tax because the gas blends, that is priced into the supply/demand curve, and the switching of the blends and a lot of other weird shit to do with California's oil supply.)

edit: oh other states already do it: Nebraska, Missouri, Colorado, Idaho, Georgia, North Carolina, Michigan, Virginia, Washington, and Wyoming

TKM · Mar 7, 2019

darkazcura said:
Seriously, man, it is like talking to brick walls. We all are on Tesla's side, lol. Promote the hell out of the gas savings, it is a big deal, but representing it within the price of the car whether you put a * on it or call it purchase price or don't call it purchase price, it is not solid business ethics.

Looks like Germany agrees with you:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...l-3-german-industry-association-idUSKCN1QN29U

FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Electric carmaker Tesla has committed to stop using fuel savings estimates to advertise its Model 3 online, a German industry association set up to prevent unfair competition practices said on Wednesday.

The Wettbewerbszentrale independent body, formed by German industry to ensure companies compete fairly, said the U.S. carmaker had been using random and non-transparent fuel savings estimates and that it must drop the practice by March 20.

"Even if 'savings' could be realized, such an amount cannot be deducted from the purchase price or the monthly rate ... because customers must pay the full price at the time of purchase or financing," the association said.

Getting consumers to think about TCO is a good thing. I don't like how deceptively Tesla goes about it though.

Gatti-man · Mar 7, 2019

Ryno23 said:
They are massively expanding their mobile service fleet. Due to how simple and few parts the cars have majority of repairs can easily be done on site. Better and easier for customer, can be serviced at home or while at work. Cheaper and more efficient for Tesla. Win win

I don't think people are really grasping what is happening here. Don't be shocked when they start offering at home test drives. They are streamlining and disrupting the entire auto industry, becoming the Amazon of cars. The 35k Model 3 was throwing the gauntlet down and the rest of the industry had to collectively shit their pants... No one can compete at that price and offer anything of remotely similar value, not for at least another 5 years.

Lmao man it is getting really deep in here lol. You should be thrilled if Tesla is even around in 5 years much less the amazon of cars. I can barely type that without laughing.

Wander · Mar 7, 2019

Gatti-man said:
Lmao man it is getting really deep in here lol. You should be thrilled if Tesla is even around in 5 years much less the amazon of cars. I can barely type that without laughing.

I'm just catching up to the thread but why do you feel this way?

Gatti-man · Mar 7, 2019

Wander said:
I'm just catching up to the thread but why do you feel this way?

That Tesla isn't the amazon of car makers? Tesla is the ant to every other carmakers boot. The only reason their business is even functioning is investment from stock sales and loans.

Or why he should be happy if Tesla is even around in 5 years:
The company obfuscates everything to hide just how bad their finances really are but it's bad. No car company has the insane executive turn over of Tesla and for good reason. Sooner or later Tesla's workers will unionize and that will cost Tesla huge. They don't have answers to their production costs or warranty support costs. Several investigations could result in massive fines. I could go on and on but cheap gas+poor build quality is going to be a profit killer for Tesla. Couple that with consumers already saddled with extreme levels of car debt and I doubt Tesla makes it without being bought out or just flat filing for bankruptcy.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/t...llion-payment-for-convertible-bond-2019-03-01

Wander · Mar 7, 2019

Gatti-man said:
That Tesla isn't the amazon of car makers? Tesla is the ant to every other carmakers boot. The only reason their business is even functioning is investment from stock sales and loans.

Or why he should be happy if Tesla is even around in 5 years:
The company obfuscates everything to hide just how bad their finances really are but it's bad. No car company has the insane executive turn over of Tesla and for good reason. Sooner or later Tesla's workers will unionize and that will cost Tesla huge. They don't have answers to their production costs or warranty support costs. Several investigations could result in massive fines. I could go on and on but cheap gas+poor build quality is going to be a profit killer for Tesla. Couple that with consumers already saddled with extreme levels of car debt and I doubt Tesla makes it without being bought out or just flat filing for bankruptcy.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/t...llion-payment-for-convertible-bond-2019-03-01

Ah gotcha thanks for clearing that up. I'm interested in a Tesla now that they are more affordable. But we'll see where they stand when I have the finances ready in a few years

lint2015 · Mar 7, 2019

Tesla told to stop listing Model 3 prices 'after gas savings' in Germany but according to some posters here, it's totally not misleading.

And before anyone accuses me of being a Tesla hater for being adamant about this point:

No, I'm just not afraid to call companies out for poor practices, particularly ones that are bad for consumers, rather than just being a fanboy for brands I admire.

Rental said:
Read earlier another accident is being investigated where a Tesla went under the trailer of a truck. Apparently it was similar to one that occurred a few years back so they are looking to see if the auto pilot was at fault.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/03/feds-investigating-deadly-friday-tesla-crash-in-florida/?amp=1

So many issues going on at this company. People were predicting tough times ahead but things seem to be snowballing quickly at the moment.

Not enough info to draw any conclusions, but I'm not sure how the driver missed a slow turning truck, even if AutoPilot missed it. Not sure how that translates to "so many issues."

captive · Mar 7, 2019

lint2015 said:
Tesla told to stop listing Model 3 prices 'after gas savings' in Germany but according to some posters here, it's totally not misleading.

And before anyone accuses me of being a Tesla hater for being adamant about this point:

No, I'm just not afraid to call companies out for poor practices, particularly ones that are bad for consumers, rather than just being a fanboy for brands I admire.

And yet your willing to call anyone who disagrees with you a fanboy. There are lots of laws that are stupid as fuck, but let's appeal to all authorities for all our arguments.

You know it's entirely possible for people to disagree with you without being a fanboy right?

Also Gatti-man's opinion on Tesla should be taken with with a huge grain of salt. He pretty much said he's not a Tesla short but wishes he were or something to that effect, in a previous thread.

lint2015 · Mar 7, 2019

captive said:
And yet your willing to call anyone who disagrees with you a fanboy.

No, I didn't. I said I, myself, don't worship the brands and companies I admire and am willing to call them out on bullshit where necessary rather than being a fanboy. But you're free to make assumptions if you take that so personally.

captive said:
There are lots of laws that are stupid as fuck, but let's appeal to all authorities for all our arguments.

I don't know about the specifics of the German regulation, but the Australian Consumer Law covers all goods and services sold to consumers. It doesn't single out Tesla. The purpose of it is to protect consumers from bad practices (such as misleading pricing, as seen here). The fact the fact that Tesla's display of pricing seems to run foul of it (as well as German regulations) is a pretty good indicator that it's misleading.

Some people here insist it isn't misleading. I'm presenting evidence otherwise. But hey, let's just dismiss it entirely as an appeal to authority, as if these laws and regulations weren't shaped over decades through community expectations, expert opinion and parliamentary debate into its current form.

Seriously, this is the first time I've heard someone say consumer protection laws are stupid as fuck. Some companies may not like them or may argue the lettering of the laws, but literally nobody in Australia says "these laws against false or misleading advertising are too broad, we need to soften it."

Frankly, I think it demonstrates the lengths people will go to maintain that they're right and everybody else is wrong.

darkazcura · Mar 8, 2019

TKM said:
Looks like Germany agrees with you:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...l-3-german-industry-association-idUSKCN1QN29U

Getting consumers to think about TCO is a good thing. I don't like how deceptively Tesla goes about it though.

Thanks for the link. It really comes down to simple math. It's objectively misleading, and it is not an opinion to believe otherwise honestly.

Wish I could own one one day still.

Ethics Gradient · Mar 8, 2019

darkazcura said:
Thanks for the link. It really comes down to simple math. It's objectively misleading, and it is not an opinion to believe otherwise honestly.

Wish I could own one one day still.

I think we can all agree this was pretty shady. I'm a little embarrassed that they do this honestly, because I'm a fan of the company in general.

captive · Mar 8, 2019

lint2015 said:
No, I didn't. I said I, myself, don't worship the brands and companies I admire and am willing to call them out on bullshit where necessary rather than being a fanboy. But you're free to make assumptions if you take that so personally.

I don't know about the specifics of the German regulation, but the Australian Consumer Law covers all goods and services sold to consumers. It doesn't single out Tesla. The purpose of it is to protect consumers from bad practices (such as misleading pricing, as seen here). The fact the fact that Tesla's display of pricing seems to run foul of it (as well as German regulations) is a pretty good indicator that it's misleading.

Some people here insist it isn't misleading. I'm presenting evidence otherwise. But hey, let's just dismiss it entirely as an appeal to authority, as if these laws and regulations weren't shaped over decades through community expectations, expert opinion and parliamentary debate into its current form.

Seriously, this is the first time I've heard someone say consumer protection laws are stupid as fuck. Some companies may not like them or may argue the lettering of the laws, but literally nobody in Australia says "these laws against false or misleading advertising are too broad, we need to soften it."

Frankly, I think it demonstrates the lengths people will go to maintain that they're right and everybody else is wrong.

i never said they were stupid as fuck. I said some laws are stupid as fuck, just appealing to authority based on someone haveing a law on it isn't enough to convince me.

its a difference of opinion.
I'm of the opinion that if someone has a solid reading comprehension you won't be mislead by it.

furthermore, someone previously quoted me and asked how would i feel about solar companies doing the same thing. I'm here to tell you, the pretty much do the exact same thing.

and here's the quotes.

so this is the dashboard from energy sage. You can see i have 3 quotes all of which show me a cost and then cost savings.

here is the top part of one of the quotes, where it shows the projected cost saving but no cost of the system.

then the bottom part, where they more or less do the same thing tesla does with their tax credit and gas savings.

and here is another quote from a different company outside of energy sage. where again they do the same thing with the "incentives to customer" line and then give the net purchase cost. The kicker is if you don't owe the IRS you'll never be able to claim said tax credit.
oh and just for funsies they estimate the appreciation in property value, which has fuckall to do with the cost of the system.

and they do the same here.

I'm failing to see how any one of these is any different from what Tesla does with the cars.

again, imo one just needs to be able to read and comprehend and its not that big of a deal.

would it make you feel better if instead of saying your car will be 65k after savings instead it say we estimate with tax credit you'll save 6k over 6 years on gas? Not that much different.

darkazcura · Mar 8, 2019

captive said:
would it make you feel better if instead of saying your car will be 65k after savings instead it say we estimate with tax credit you'll save 6k over 6 years on gas? Not that much different.

This is where I feel like you weren't actually reading my posts. Yes, it would make people feel better, and yes, it is different. This is exactly what we have been suggesting, and you are making it seem like it is a huge deal to do this.

I repeat, no one disagrees with the idea that people will likely experience a gas savings over time with Tesla or any other EV. It's incorporating it into the price and calling it that which is the issue.

Also, your solar panel picture examples are incredibly different from what Tesla is doing. They give you purchase cost, and then the cost after incentives (i.e tax credits and rebates), which is totally appropriate, imo, and I made that super clear very early on in the thread. The issue is simply about incorporating gas savings into the price. No one is handing you down money to bring the price down which is what is implied when you say "price after 6 years from estimated gas savings". The actual solar panel equivalent would be (right from the numbers in your picture) this:

$55,868 purchase price
-$17,738 price after 25 years*

*(includes $20,260 in incentives + $53,346 in estimated utility savings cost over 25 years)

Would it really feel right to you if this solar panel company actually listed the price after 25 years as being -$17,738?

You are actually proving our point with these pictures.

Kendrid · Mar 11, 2019

Tesla has backtracked and is no longer closing all the stores. There is also a 3% increase in price taking effect one week from today on all cars except the base 35K Model 3.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/11/tech/tesla-price-rises/index.html

While it looks bad to reverse course so fast that is a good move. Car buying entails test drives for most people. I don't care if 80% of current buyers didn't test drive, for the company to be successful in the future IMO people need to be able to try the product. This isn't a phone.

We were at our local service center/showroom this past Saturday. It was packed with people wanting to test drive the 3. We had a reservation so we didn't have to wait in line but people without reservations did have to wait.

We test drove the AWD as they didn't have an RWD in stock. My wife and I were blown away by the comfort and of course the power and quietness. My wife's biggest concern was using the screen but that reservation quickly went away. It was unfortunate that we could not drive the exact model we would purchase but we at least got to experience the interior we would purchase. We are not concerned about the power as the other cars we are considering are 2+ seconds slower 0-60. The Accord hybrid is actually the next fastest car and under heavy acceleration it sounds really bad compared to my 2012 Camry hybrid.

So now the question of do we buy now? The first world problem we have is we don't know if we need a third car yet and if we do need it we would prefer to get it before June 30th for the tax credit. It depends upon if my son gets a parking spot at school for next year for before and after school activities (he gets my old car). He won't know until mid May. If he does not get one we really don't need the third car. We can afford it no problem but if we could wait a year that isn't a bad thing. One side of me wants to reserve this Sunday before the price increase as it is possible to cancel as long as you have not been paired with a VIN number. My understanding (please correct if wrong) is the VIN is assigned once the car is at the local service center.

SRG01 · Mar 11, 2019

Kendrid said:
Tesla has backtracked and is no longer closing all the stores. There is also a 3% increase in price taking effect one week from today on all cars except the base 35K Model 3.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/11/tech/tesla-price-rises/index.html

While it looks bad to reverse course so fast that is a good move. Car buying entails test drives for most people. I don't care if 80% of current buyers didn't test drive, for the company to be successful in the future IMO people need to be able to try the product. This isn't a phone.

We were at our local service center/showroom this past Saturday. It was packed with people wanting to test drive the 3. We had a reservation so we didn't have to wait in line but people without reservations did have to wait.

We test drove the AWD as they didn't have an RWD in stock. My wife and I were blown away by the comfort and of course the power and quietness. My wife's biggest concern was using the screen but that reservation quickly went away. It was unfortunate that we could not drive the exact model we would purchase but we at least got to experience the interior we would purchase. We are not concerned about the power as the other cars we are considering are 2+ seconds slower 0-60. The Accord hybrid is actually the next fastest car and under heavy acceleration it sounds really bad compared to my 2012 Camry hybrid.

So now the question of do we buy now? The first world problem we have is we don't know if we need a third car yet and if we do need it we would prefer to get it before June 30th for the tax credit. It depends upon if my son gets a parking spot at school for next year for before and after school activities (he gets my old car). He won't know until mid May. If he does not get one we really don't need the third car. We can afford it no problem but if we could wait a year that isn't a bad thing. One side of me wants to reserve this Sunday before the price increase as it is possible to cancel as long as you have not been paired with a VIN number. My understanding (please correct if wrong) is the VIN is assigned once the car is at the local service center.

I'd suggest a third option and see if there's a carshare program in your area before you consider a third vehicle...

If you do go for a third vehicle, perhaps consider the options from Hyundai/Kia (they're SUV/crossover form factors) before making a purchase. The hard part is that waiting until 2020/21 is actually your best option because that's when all the competitor cars start rolling out, but can't because your son needs a vehicle too.

Deleted member 17092 · Mar 11, 2019

captive said:
Exactly. When my wife told me she wanted to go test drive one. I didn't tell her any thing about it. But she had been doing her own research. She later told me she wasn't sure if she would like the interior but once she got in and drove it. She loved everything about it.

yea, but the bolt is ugly af.

The 3 is ugly af too imo lol.

Kendrid · Mar 11, 2019

SRG01 said:
I'd suggest a third option and see if there's a carshare program in your area before you consider a third vehicle...

If you do go for a third vehicle, perhaps consider the options from Hyundai/Kia (they're SUV/crossover form factors) before making a purchase. The hard part is that waiting until 2020/21 is actually your best option because that's when all the competitor cars start rolling out, but can't because your son needs a vehicle too.

Thanks for the input. We looked at Hyundai and they were fine and heavily up front discounted. The Rav4 hybrid is also on the table as a possibility. After owning a car that gets 40mpg without having to drive like a grandma we want another which is why we are looking at hybrids or electric.

Kendrid · Mar 11, 2019

I forgot to mention that when we test drove the 3 we both thought the rear window visibility was terrible. Luckily for backing up it has a huge screen.

SRG01 · Mar 11, 2019

Kendrid said:
Thanks for the input. We looked at Hyundai and they were fine and heavily up front discounted. The Rav4 hybrid is also on the table as a possibility. After owning a car that gets 40mpg without having to drive like a grandma we want another which is why we are looking at hybrids or electric.

Kendrid said:
I forgot to mention that when we test drove the 3 we both thought the rear window visibility was terrible. Luckily for backing up it has a huge screen.

If you're looking for rear visibility, maybe the Hondas would work for you? The Insight is basically a Civic/Accord hybrid.

Kendrid · Mar 11, 2019

SRG01 said:
If you're looking for rear visibility, maybe the Hondas would work for you? The Insight is basically a Civic/Accord hybrid.

It isn't a huge deal, we both just thought it was a weak point of the car. We checked out the Insight and the dealer pushed the Clarity hard since they are not selling. We couldn't drive it though because the 12v battery was dead because it had been sitting so long. It does quality for the full $7500 rebate and while I didn't ask pricing I'd think they are cheap considering they have 2018 models that are just sitting there.

Argyle · Mar 11, 2019

Kendrid said:
Tesla has backtracked and is no longer closing all the stores. There is also a 3% increase in price taking effect one week from today on all cars except the base 35K Model 3.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/11/tech/tesla-price-rises/index.html

While it looks bad to reverse course so fast that is a good move. Car buying entails test drives for most people. I don't care if 80% of current buyers didn't test drive, for the company to be successful in the future IMO people need to be able to try the product. This isn't a phone.

We were at our local service center/showroom this past Saturday. It was packed with people wanting to test drive the 3. We had a reservation so we didn't have to wait in line but people without reservations did have to wait.

We test drove the AWD as they didn't have an RWD in stock. My wife and I were blown away by the comfort and of course the power and quietness. My wife's biggest concern was using the screen but that reservation quickly went away. It was unfortunate that we could not drive the exact model we would purchase but we at least got to experience the interior we would purchase. We are not concerned about the power as the other cars we are considering are 2+ seconds slower 0-60. The Accord hybrid is actually the next fastest car and under heavy acceleration it sounds really bad compared to my 2012 Camry hybrid.

So now the question of do we buy now? The first world problem we have is we don't know if we need a third car yet and if we do need it we would prefer to get it before June 30th for the tax credit. It depends upon if my son gets a parking spot at school for next year for before and after school activities (he gets my old car). He won't know until mid May. If he does not get one we really don't need the third car. We can afford it no problem but if we could wait a year that isn't a bad thing. One side of me wants to reserve this Sunday before the price increase as it is possible to cancel as long as you have not been paired with a VIN number. My understanding (please correct if wrong) is the VIN is assigned once the car is at the local service center.

Which RWD model are you looking at?

If you're looking at a base model car I'd order now, if you're looking at SR+ then you might be able to wait until mid-May before deciding but it'll be iffy, and if you're looking at a higher end model it might be OK to wait. It sounds like from your comments about the interior that you're looking at MR or LR, though. You'd just have to watch the delivery timings (which can be pretty squishy) before you decide.

Rear visibility is not great out of the back window but I've never had a problem since the rear view camera is good and the screen is so big. Sometimes it is hard to see a car sitting right on your bumper through the window but the visualization on the screen that shows all the traffic around you on the screen while you are driving will usually pick those people up.

SRG01 said:
I'd suggest a third option and see if there's a carshare program in your area before you consider a third vehicle...

If you do go for a third vehicle, perhaps consider the options from Hyundai/Kia (they're SUV/crossover form factors) before making a purchase. The hard part is that waiting until 2020/21 is actually your best option because that's when all the competitor cars start rolling out, but can't because your son needs a vehicle too.

If he wants BEV at this point the Korean models are probably not an option, as in some areas there is already a 6-12 month backlog on orders (assuming they are even available at all in their area). California dealers who have cars are already marking them up 7-10K over MSRP which makes them pretty uncompetitive with the Model 3 IMHO (unless you absolutely need a hatchback...looking at the Niro as an example though, I can just about guarantee I can get more luggage in the trunk with the seats up in a Model 3 than in a Niro despite the published specs)

Kendrid · Mar 11, 2019

Argyle said:
Which RWD model are you looking at?

Standard range plus with partial premium interior. My understanding is that the seat "leather" and seats themselves are the same as the premium interior. We don't care about the streaming, satellite maps or lack of rear seat heaters. I did read today that the steering wheel in the partial is manual but we never adjust it after setting it so not a big deal.

I've seen on the forums that some people are able to get the mid range/premium within a week because they were mass produced the end of last year. It is possible to upgrade an order so 5/1 we could order the SR+ and if it isn't going to make it by the end of June upgrade if there is one available. The upgrade cost will basically even out with the tax credit. If mid May we realize we don't need the 3rd car I should be able to cancel and get the $2500 back as long as they hadn't assigned a VIN yet.

One interesting thing is since they have 2018 higher end models some people are getting free paint or wheel upgrades. Basically negotiate that while the car is identical resale is lower since it is a year older. The guy that helped us Saturday was great but unfortunately he was supposed to email us and he never did. He told me he could look and see if a car configured how we want was available.

Argyle · Mar 11, 2019

Kendrid said:
Standard range plus with partial premium interior. My understanding is that the seat "leather" and seats themselves are the same as the premium interior. We don't care about the streaming, satellite maps or lack of rear seat heaters. I did read today that the steering wheel in the partial is manual but we never adjust it after setting it so not a big deal.

I've seen on the forums that some people are able to get the mid range/premium within a week because they were mass produced the end of last year. It is possible to upgrade an order so 5/1 we could order the SR+ and if it isn't going to make it by the end of June upgrade if there is one available. The upgrade cost will basically even out with the tax credit. If mid May we realize we don't need the 3rd car I should be able to cancel and get the $2500 back as long as they hadn't assigned a VIN yet.

One interesting thing is since they have 2018 higher end models some people are getting free paint or wheel upgrades. Basically negotiate that while the car is identical resale is lower since it is a year older. The guy that helped us Saturday was great but unfortunately he was supposed to email us and he never did. He told me he could look and see if a car configured how we want was available.

That sounds like a solid plan to me. For production limited cars I don't think you'll get a VIN until the car is enroute to the service center where you will take delivery. I think it's unclear how streaming and other "premium" internet features work on the SR/SR+. In the past they let everyone have it for free and then they told everyone they would have to pay for it in the future, then they told people that everyone who had streaming already were grandfathered in for life and new customers would only get one year of streaming free before having to pay ~$100/year, but now they aren't even talking about a subscription fee at all. My suspicion though is that if you decide you want it later, they'll probably offer some kind of package for around $100/year for your car. I love the streaming but that's just because I can get radio stations from cities I used to live in via TuneIn, it's honestly not that much of a hardship to stream something like that from your phone.

Deleted member 48897 · Mar 11, 2019

captive said:
is this disingenuous too?

At least for the context of this discussion I think this is a lot more straightforward. While it's not immediately clear what a 7/10 rating is for economy or smog rating (percentile? Is this in the top 30% of all cars for fuel economy?), it doesn't try to relate these values directly to the purchase price the way that Tesla does. It tells me what the annual fuel cost is for 15,000 miles a year and how much better that might be compared to other vehicles on the market.

In fact, the sticker price isn't anywhere on that information. If Tesla didn't try to put those numbers together, I'd be happy. As it is, they present it in a way that makes it look like a total if you're not actually reading the print closely. They may not be actively lying about anything but I don't like the way they present those numbers, especially because you don't pay that lower value when you actually buy the car.

Araex · Mar 11, 2019

Kendrid said:
Standard range plus with partial premium interior. My understanding is that the seat "leather" and seats themselves are the same as the premium interior. We don't care about the streaming, satellite maps or lack of rear seat heaters. I did read today that the steering wheel in the partial is manual but we never adjust it after setting it so not a big deal.

I've seen on the forums that some people are able to get the mid range/premium within a week because they were mass produced the end of last year. It is possible to upgrade an order so 5/1 we could order the SR+ and if it isn't going to make it by the end of June upgrade if there is one available. The upgrade cost will basically even out with the tax credit. If mid May we realize we don't need the 3rd car I should be able to cancel and get the $2500 back as long as they hadn't assigned a VIN yet.

One interesting thing is since they have 2018 higher end models some people are getting free paint or wheel upgrades. Basically negotiate that while the car is identical resale is lower since it is a year older. The guy that helped us Saturday was great but unfortunately he was supposed to email us and he never did. He told me he could look and see if a car configured how we want was available.

Looking at the SR+ feature list, the only thing I'd miss from our LR RWD is the GPS-enabled homelink auto-opener; we have three doors registered (gate, garage, parents' garage), and the usability/location of on-screen buttons for them is a step-backward from your typical rearview mirror mounted buttons.

And I agree with the rear visibility, it's bad at night, especially with tinted rear window.

The Teachinator · Mar 11, 2019

Gatti-man said:
Lmao man it is getting really deep in here lol. You should be thrilled if Tesla is even around in 5 years much less the amazon of cars. I can barely type that without laughing.

muteKi said:
At least for the context of this discussion I think this is a lot more straightforward. While it's not immediately clear what a 7/10 rating is for economy or smog rating (percentile? Is this in the top 30% of all cars for fuel economy?), it doesn't try to relate these values directly to the purchase price the way that Tesla does. It tells me what the annual fuel cost is for 15,000 miles a year and how much better that might be compared to other vehicles on the market.

In fact, the sticker price isn't anywhere on that information. If Tesla didn't try to put those numbers together, I'd be happy. As it is, they present it in a way that makes it look like a total if you're not actually reading the print closely. They may not be actively lying about anything but I don't like the way they present those numbers, especially because you don't pay that lower value when you actually buy the car.

Again, I bought one, it's very clear how much you're paying for the car IMMEDIATELY after you click through the initial marketing page.

SRG01 · Mar 11, 2019

Argyle said:
If he wants BEV at this point the Korean models are probably not an option, as in some areas there is already a 6-12 month backlog on orders (assuming they are even available at all in their area). California dealers who have cars are already marking them up 7-10K over MSRP which makes them pretty uncompetitive with the Model 3 IMHO (unless you absolutely need a hatchback...looking at the Niro as an example though, I can just about guarantee I can get more luggage in the trunk with the seats up in a Model 3 than in a Niro despite the published specs)

WTF the whole point of the Korean BEVs is to have a SUV/crossover in the 'reasonably affordable' price bracket. Are they hiking the price purely because of supply issues?

I was thinking of the Niro later this year because I need to fit at least full-size luggages while still having the backseat because of family, but I might as well consider ICEs or hybrids at this point.

Argyle · Mar 11, 2019

SRG01 said:
WTF the whole point of the Korean BEVs is to have a SUV/crossover in the 'reasonably affordable' price bracket. Are they hiking the price purely because of supply issues?

I was thinking of the Niro later this year because I need to fit at least full-size luggages while still having the backseat because of family, but I might as well consider ICEs or hybrids at this point.

Yup! You're in Canada right? It sounds like if you haven't ordered already you're unlikely to get one this year.

As for cargo space, I can get one giant suitcase and one midsized suitcase in the trunk of my 3 (and still have room for a carry-on in the frunk), whereas only one suitcase would fit in the back of a Kia Soul (which has more space than a Niro... You still had some space for small bags and things in the back, just not enough for a second suitcase). For hatchbacks they seem to measure the cargo space all the way to the glass which may or may not work for you depending on what your luggage looks like and if you care to see out of the back window.

SRG01 · Mar 11, 2019

Argyle said:
Yup! You're in Canada right? It sounds like if you haven't ordered already you're unlikely to get one this year.

As for cargo space, I can get one giant suitcase and one midsized suitcase in the trunk of my 3 (and still have room for a carry-on in the frunk), whereas only one suitcase would fit in the back of a Kia Soul (which has more space than a Niro... You still had some space for small bags and things in the back, just not enough for a second suitcase). For hatchbacks they seem to measure the cargo space all the way to the glass which may or may not work for you depending on what your luggage looks like and if you care to see out of the back window.

Dammit. It seems like nothing is really matching the cargo space of my Lancer, and it's a sedan that's smaller than the Camry.

Argyle · Mar 11, 2019

SRG01 said:
Dammit. It seems like nothing is really matching the cargo space of my Lancer, and it's a sedan that's smaller than the Camry.

Well, you should go check it out yourself. I saw another record that says the Niro has more usable cargo space than a Soul, so YMMV. If you have a recent Lancer, those all seem to have less cargo space than a Model 3 (11-12 cu ft vs 15 cu ft) so maybe you should check a Model 3 out as well?

SRG01 · Mar 11, 2019

Argyle said:
Well, you should go check it out yourself. I saw another record that says the Niro has more usable cargo space than a Soul, so YMMV. If you have a recent Lancer, those all seem to have less cargo space than a Model 3 (11-12 cu ft vs 15 cu ft) so maybe you should check a Model 3 out as well?

It's a 2003 Lancer and has waaay more room than the 2017 I test-drove a while ago. That's actually why I didn't buy it...

edit: To be more specific, the 2017 had more height, but the depth was lacking. I can slide in two full-sized luggages side-by-side long side forward in my 2003. I'm almost certain that the Camry can accommodate that since it's a mid-size.

Kernel · Mar 11, 2019

Well Model Y is being revealed soon.

Even with the Kona and Niro EV I can't stand their slow charge rate.

Tesla announces Supercharger V3 at 250kW and they top out at 70kW.

Plus it seems EVgo recently upped their rates.

Before and after that I saw on Reddit.

SRG01 · Mar 11, 2019

I think the Niro EV has DC Fast Charge and L3 so it's still reasonable? Or did I confuse that with another vehicle?

At any rate, I'm not too concerned with the Supercharger network since I'll mainly be charging at home or at work. If Tesla can actually push out vehicles (and survive) by the time the Y comes out, I might go for one -- or whichever company can give me cargo room without being too big of a vehicle.

At the same time, I live in a jurisdiction that doesn't have an EV credit, so I may be waiting for a very long time for an EV that fits my needs.

SRG01 · Mar 11, 2019

Making a threadmark with a link with the Tesla news today: cancellation of store shutdowns, ~3% price increase.

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/tesla-to-raise-prices-close-fewer-stores-than-flagged-1.1226751

Argyle · Mar 11, 2019

SRG01 said:
It's a 2003 Lancer and has waaay more room than the 2017 I test-drove a while ago. That's actually why I didn't buy it...

edit: To be more specific, the 2017 had more height, but the depth was lacking. I can slide in two full-sized luggages side-by-side long side forward in my 2003. I'm almost certain that the Camry can accommodate that since it's a mid-size.

Interesting, a 2003 Lancer has 11.3 cu ft of trunk space from what I can tell... Seriously unless you're driving a Lancer station wagon now maybe you should consider looking at the Model 3?

Tesla news! Standard range Model 3 released, company likely not profitable this quarter

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