This thread goes into some of the more subtle issues and gave me some food for thought:
https://twitter.com/beaglerush/status/1017050472681598978
https://twitter.com/beaglerush/status/1017050472681598978
The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)
- Thread starter hydrophilic attack
- Start date
Exactly this^ After seeing some of her past tweets, and then her response to someone being respectful to her, I think she definitely deserved to be fired. Publically fired like she was? Probably not, it seems like ANet was bent on getting more fans on making this a spectacle, but either way I think parting ways with her was the right move
She was pretty rude to the guy for no good reason. Firing seems a bit much though. At my place they'd probably have sent her on a course to work on her people skills first. Seems like she could use one of those tbh. The guy deffo didn't deserve it though.
Regardless of whether it was warranted or not, Arenanet really handled this whole thing badly either way.
Regardless of whether it was warranted or not, Arenanet really handled this whole thing badly either way.
I get the feeling that the reason you're defending Price so hard is not because of sexism but because being fired for being an asshole to people online hits home to you.
The fact that you did the "What if I did what she did? Would I be fired then?" question twice and admit that you're teetering on a ban for hostility, well, thou dost protest to much.
*Man is fired for defending a woman and actually doing nothing* "Oh man, sucks for him then." "I dunno why they do that, but eh, whatever."
No, actually:
*Woman is fired for doing something wrong* "Sexism in progress. We women are the only ones beholden to such high standards like not being an asshole."
*White man is fired for defending the above woman* "Oh wow, that's weird, I wonder why they did that."
He has, it was exceedingly professional. Feel pretty bad for him, as his capital offense seemed to be sticking up for a co-worker.
https://twitter.com/Peter_Fries/status/1015650777191231488
Well for starters, the person who got fired has political leanings that align with most of this forum, and the people advocating for her termination don't.
IMO in an ideal world, someone wouldn't immediately lose their job for making dumb but otherwise inoffensive posts.
amazing contribution. really gets your brain juices pumping when you read such elegant and concise prose.
We know he's out of a job, we know he's a man, we know what he said was less offensive than Price and we know he was there a lot longer than Price was.
It holes the sexism argument below the waterline.
This streamer dude was mansplaining, no doubt about it. If Jessica Price was a dude complaining about MMO writing nothing would happen.
Sexism is subtle but it's there and it's the result.
Sexism is subtle but it's there and it's the result.
Of course her being fired would come to light. But how ANet frames that action or reprimands online interaction around it matters.
Again, no fucking shit women got harassed before Price. But were Price or Fries pulled aside about their social media before, or were they were just fired? When this shit blows up because of GG-types, ANet should have been way more fucking aware as to who this enables.
This is a gross oversimplification and flat out ignoring of some of the facts. She wasn't "just annoyed" with him. She responded in a very toxic way to someone who was speaking to her 100% respectfully.
This describes how Jessica acted to a 'T'. How dare someone question her, or as she seems to portray him "Allow me--a person who does not work with you--explain to you how to do your job." He clearly only responded to her because she's a female game dev who doesn't know how to do her job, right? Because that's what Jessica seems to believe.
You want this so badly to be a case of misogyny, but it's not. Her actions negatively affected company image. That's grounds for firing no matter a persons gender, as seen by Price (a male) being fired for joining in and being a part of it.
This is pretty much where I'm at. The need to see grey situations as black or white is an issue.
It's the new womp womp womp.
We have our own Fox News host in this very thread.
He was also trying to clear the air that he wasn't trying to engage in a fight. She wanted a fight and she now has to deal with the consequences of her actions. After reading all the sides I side with Arenanet on this issue but not on the firing of Fries. He was not antagonistic in the situation and he was backing up his friend and co-worker in a non hostile way. Why isn't the Arenanet response in the OP BTW?
I got the arenanet statement from Yong Yea where he goes over it in detail in this video if you want to check a look. I'm an ally of feminists but if I was in charge of Anet and this happened where my dev was trying to instigate a fight with someone who was polite and clearly not looking for that fight I would be on the edge of it anyways but likely a one time warning. Going after one of the bigger influencers though that helps drive people to the game and keeps them engaged in playing through a shared community? That axe is coming down.
Yea, I can't help but agree. Extremely poorly handled by nearly all parties. My kind of feelings here are this.
I think for me, reading into this. The step too far was pretty much immediate. Her responding in a way to Deroir, that turned a fairly innocent (and maybe misinformed) response and labeling, while maybe not literally, as being toxic male behavior. It felt extremely undeserved and demeaning to him as a community member. And a more respected/active one at that? (That's the impression I got). She turned the lense of the discussion at him, targeted him. Instead of just responding in a way that would have been at least reasonably copacetic. Also nothing in their discussion pointed at it having anything to do with sexism in any way. I can see why she was fired in this situation (Originally maybe not, but obvious as it continued to spiral I'm not sure how much choice was left). Personally I don't see his response as being any different from someone responding to a thread here and stating their opinion. I don't believe that kind of behavior from Price would have been tolerated here, and I kind of use RE as a benchmark, of at least decently civil discourse on the web.
So I guess
1. At least on initial comment, I absolutely do not see where Deroir applied sexist or demeaning comments, even after her response, he says
. Sure it feels a little passive aggressive, but honestly I would feel a little spurned too, after just trying to engage in a dialogue with someone.Deroir said:
2. I basically just agree with this. I mean I think objectively she was being rude, likely feeding off many other past interactions with shitty people, who I'm sure we're being misogynistic. But it's no excuse for that kind of behavior. If it was nearly everyone would get a free "snapped" pass. Where we just get too agitated and snap at someone. Which seems is what may have happened here.
3. People from this point on begin to basically blow it out of proportion and it quickly spirals out of control. To the point where simple actions are no longer an option. Everything from 3-6 just starts becoming a shit storm that nobody walks away from unscathed lol.
Seems like fries was just a casualty in the crossfire though unfortunately. Honestly all of this could have been kept at a civil level I'm sure. But it doesn't seem anything is capable of staying grounded with the social media behavior of today.
I think it's a Black Panther M'Baku reference but I'm not sure???
Kamiya is hardly responding to polite criticism.
Also Kamiya is a much bigger part of his brand, and his personality feeds that brand.
Exactly and people don't get this. The same applies for people Cliffy B and J.K. Rowling, Cardi B., Kanye and more. When you're the person in charge and/or you continue being the best for business, you can damn near say whatever you want and get away with it. Like I said above, this is why certain musicians, high paid athletes and high paid actors get away with toxic tweets.
Yup. There's a lot of talk about the mob attacking Price and rightfully so, but Deroir has pretty damn disgusting stuff thrown at him too as earlier shared tweet here where he was basically called a potential rapist/abuser. "You're that kind of person women fear to be alone with". Neither Price (or other devs) and Deroir deserve any of this shit from people. Price was already fired, yet people are still jumping on her and it's uncalled for. She made a mistake (imo and she's only human), she faced concequences yet people are still after her (and other devs).
Last edited:
Yeah, sure, okay, but what does that have to do with other women being harassed?
Oh no, a nondescript movement of people you've already been blaming for any mass harassment towards women for years will now start harassing women... the exact same way? It's rather unclear.
I read what fries posted. The fundamental issue there was that he wholly supported Price and while more tonally acceptable still doubled down of the "Price did nothing wrong" narrative metaphorically calling Deroir a layman to Price's professional astronomer and again attacking his standing to respond to or disagree with her posts. He then continues the "personal twitter account (complete with employer in profile)" excuse.
Deserving of firing? In my opinion no. No doubt there was a public influence on this.
Deroir would have said the exact same thing, verbatim, if it was a male writer. If you want to call it unintentionally condsencing, sure. Mainsplaining, probably not.
A union lawyer once described his time teaching in Europe. He says he made the mistake if exokaing "at-will" employment and then had to devote massive amounts of time rehashing the concert in every class because Europeans simply could not fathom such a lopsided power structure.
I talked to a friend who works at ArenaNet about this--not really intending to, he broached the matter when I hadn't really heard about it yet--and the gist of it I got from him was:
1. The company knew Price was outspoken on social media when they hired her and did not have a problem with it.
2. The employee in question focused a lot on how apparently some members of their community were crowing about how they "have all the power" and "have ANet by the throat" and could "make them fire anyone, anytime, so they'd better watch their step".
3. Related to the above, probably, but there's just a general feeling of intimidation and unease at the company now.
4. The employee in question thought it was possible to be fired for practically anything at this point, even if social media was avoided entirely, just in the instance where someone records something said in private and connects it with the employee's identity.
Not going to register a judgment one way or the other, just thought the perspective from an employee might be worthwhile to someone. The obvious caveats apply: the employee should not be assumed to be representative of the entire company or to be in possession of perfect information on the matter.
1. The company knew Price was outspoken on social media when they hired her and did not have a problem with it.
2. The employee in question focused a lot on how apparently some members of their community were crowing about how they "have all the power" and "have ANet by the throat" and could "make them fire anyone, anytime, so they'd better watch their step".
3. Related to the above, probably, but there's just a general feeling of intimidation and unease at the company now.
4. The employee in question thought it was possible to be fired for practically anything at this point, even if social media was avoided entirely, just in the instance where someone records something said in private and connects it with the employee's identity.
Not going to register a judgment one way or the other, just thought the perspective from an employee might be worthwhile to someone. The obvious caveats apply: the employee should not be assumed to be representative of the entire company or to be in possession of perfect information on the matter.
Deroir's response shows his true colors. Turning himself into a victim displays male fragility and this false civility act is used as a weapon to antagonize women dev's, just because you're nice to someone doesn't mean you're owed a civil response when you're mansplaining and telling a woman dev how to do her job. Firing her to please a bunch of gamergaters is bad for the industry and further promotes harassment campaigns.
I believe the issue here is that Kamiya insulted everyone, not a specific individual.
Also? There was a TON of backlash on his tweets.
The existence of gamergate is not a license to insult your employer's customers have n public due to perceived slights
As we move into year four of gamergate with the industry at large doing fuck all, don't let people with no actual stakes in your employment gas you up into thinking otherwise
As we move into year four of gamergate with the industry at large doing fuck all, don't let people with no actual stakes in your employment gas you up into thinking otherwise
I do think she came down a bit harsh on the initial tweet, however, as a woman, and in this vile climate we currently find ourselves in, I know I personally view every message I receive through a very cautious lens. In a way I am guessing most men don't have to. She may have jumped the gun on this particular tweet and went on the defensive early, but I can hardly blame her when this is so incredibly prevalent and more and more of these GG losers are using different tactics and setting traps to weasel their way into conversations or good graces of women on social media.
ArenaNet's very public and rapid firing of these two employees over this is really gross and uncalled for in any event and it questions the intentions of their actions of doing it this way in the first place.
ArenaNet's very public and rapid firing of these two employees over this is really gross and uncalled for in any event and it questions the intentions of their actions of doing it this way in the first place.
Last edited:
I think the argument is that he would not have said anything if it was a male writer. The idea behind 'mansplaining' is men explaining things women already know because they are women.
I'm not saying I neccessarily think he was doing that, as much as it is a thing a lot of women deal with and so it's not hard to see why someone might snap at what looks like the 300th time it has happened that week.
Or another way of looking at things: men love telling an outspoken woman how to talk properly and this is a prime example of this across the board. Just check out all the men in this thread getting off on stating how inappropriate this female game developer was. Then add all the bad faith diet Gamergaters in this community and it's a perfect mixture to shit on a game developer while absolving a shitty company for throwing their employees under the bus. And so it becomes a discussion about the victim (Price) instead of the abuser (Arena.net) and "moderates" / "Both sides" are falling for it.
Just like I saw in other communities in 2014
The way AreaNet handled and announced her firing absolutely could have been handled better.
The fact that she still believes she was fired because of sexism and Deroir only made that tweet because she's female is amazing in and of itself. She truly refuses to see things in any way other than how she wants things to be.
kamiya works for an entirely different company, with an entirely different internal structure, in an entirely different position, located on literally the other side of the world, in an entirely different country with an entirely different culture.
that being said, i dont think going "but look at how much of a dick Kamiya is being on twitter" is a justification at all (i know thats not what you are doing)
I do agree he was passive aggressive with painting himself as a victim.
Agree to disagree. There's also this deeper problem where random gamers who don't make video games think they know how to make video games better than the actual devs and that also leads to toxic discourse and harassment but that's not what we're talking about.
ArenaNet fucked up.
To anyone that believes in the Price deserved it narrative how does her co-worker getting fired to fit within that?
Cause everyone seems to magically ignore that.
Maybe American's just have this really skewed view about employment but to anyone with a brain jumping straight to firing people here was a terrible decision.
Cause everyone seems to magically ignore that.
Maybe American's just have this really skewed view about employment but to anyone with a brain jumping straight to firing people here was a terrible decision.
OP
OP
this shows just how moronic the company was in this decision
if these sentiments are indeed widespread, they're going to lose a lot more talent over the coming months as their employees leave for less toxic employees
Absolutely. Like I said, Anet fucked up with how they handled her termination. But, I 100% her being fired is completely justified.
Basically everything in this post is rubbish, from the amateur psychology to the characterisation of the tweets to presuming to know exactly why she was fired.
I think O'Brien's statement was perfect.
And that's what it boils down to in the end. If Deroir was being rude and genuinely abusive, i'd be the first to scream in Jessica's defence, but the absolute reality of the situation is that he wasn't. Jessica took criticism as a personal attack and lashed out in some unhinged frenzy, that made both her and her company look terrible.
Trying to spin it so she is the victim and the GW2 community drove her out because sexism is so utterly disingenuous and I'm honestly so disappointed people are falling for it. The games media pushing this when the evidence clearly doesn't back it up just makes me lose whatever faith I had left in them. They're intentionally misleading their readers, for either clicks/ad revenue (most likely) or more worryingly, to spread outrage to further splinter the gaming community. Either way, they should be ashamed of themselves.
And that's what it boils down to in the end. If Deroir was being rude and genuinely abusive, i'd be the first to scream in Jessica's defence, but the absolute reality of the situation is that he wasn't. Jessica took criticism as a personal attack and lashed out in some unhinged frenzy, that made both her and her company look terrible.
Trying to spin it so she is the victim and the GW2 community drove her out because sexism is so utterly disingenuous and I'm honestly so disappointed people are falling for it. The games media pushing this when the evidence clearly doesn't back it up just makes me lose whatever faith I had left in them. They're intentionally misleading their readers, for either clicks/ad revenue (most likely) or more worryingly, to spread outrage to further splinter the gaming community. Either way, they should be ashamed of themselves.
It's confusing as hell because I hear a lot about how it's mansplaining because he is a man "condescending" to a woman, but not because what he's actually saying it condescending (hence the "you don't have to be rude to be rude" or whatever the hell [actually I get what they mean but it's way the hell off]) but because, again, he's a man "explaining things" to a woman.
Exhibit A: It's "mansplaining" because "men love telling an outspoken woman how to talk properly" (also apparently no men are ever called assholes for being assholes ever).
So then by that logic what he's actually saying isn't condescending, so why would he speak any differently to the sex he isn't sexist to?
I think this could have been solved with a repremand from HR and an apology. The dev was in the wrong for the way they handled it, but this should have never risen to the level of someone, let alone two people losing their jobs.
I think that's a pretty solid opinion most people can agree with.
I think that's a pretty solid opinion most people can agree with.
This response of "this totally ain't sexism bro" is exactly how the old site responded to GamerGate early on up until you had to be extremely obtuse to realize the movement's true intentions.
My post was basically disagreeing with this being an example of mansplaining. I won't tell Price how to interpret the interaction though, but knowing Deroir, he absolutely would have asked the same thing to a man.
If for some reason this streamer decided to lecture a male writer on his job, then he probably wouldn't have had the reaction as he did with a female writer like Price. A male writer doesn't have to deal with being constantly lectured by nobodies on Twitter on how to do his job. It doesn't weigh on him as much when they get a dozen tweet thread by some streamer who is giving them a layman's explanation of a subject they are well learned in and have decades of professional experience in.
