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The controversial ArenaNet firings of Guild Wars 2 writers (READ OP)
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Calling someone a "rando asshat" and accusing them of sexism is only slightly rude now? Eh... that brings a lot of heat to a company when something like that happens. Even if you say she wasn't representing Anet at the time she held an AMA about GW2 and its story telling as well as talked about it on Twitter which the reply came from. Plus the fact the company and her position was plastered on her profile.
Could they have handled it differently? Maybe, but without further knowledge of prior disciplinary actions we may not know.
I found it funny how people defend a person who falsely accused someone of sexism. Not only that devalues the real problem in gaming industry but shit like this can destroy careers and even lifes.
She deserved the boot
And she is not even sorry
Edit: I read somewhere that all of it was a part of AMA. Can anyone confirm?
She deserved the boot
And she is not even sorry
Edit: I read somewhere that all of it was a part of AMA. Can anyone confirm?
When you type hyperbolic garbage like this it feels like you are trying to out-satirize the OP. Finding validity in JP's termination doesn't mean they want all women removed from the industry - it doesn't even have anything to do with her being a women at all. She thought she could be hostile on Twitter and paid the price for it.
Yea, no, that employee was openly hostile to someone who was nothing but kind and conciliatory in tone. Did she deserve to get fired? Maybe not. But she turned something that had nothing to do with sexism into a giant cry of "mansplaining" (her words, not mine). It was hostile, rude and I don't blame ArenaNet for reprimanding her.
Going by their statement the mob only formed after they had already made a decision. Also, should they just overlook a transgression because a stupid mob formed?
Not exactly. She partipated in a Reddit AMA (there was a recent content drop for the game so an AMA always follows that).
There was a topic she wanted to talk about that she didn't get to in the AMA so she went on her public Twitter account which has her company and position in her description to talk about the topic. Deroir replied to her tweet.
Okay. So you can say that she did it for the public to see.
Thx for the answer
???
edit: I think i know what you're trying to suggest, it's just so stupid that I want to see you type it out
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There was still a lot of anti union talk and venom about wanting better working conditions regardless.
The fact that there is a constantly-existing misogynist hate mob in gaming is extremely important context for any supposed transgression committed by any woman brave enough to work in the industry. If I was a feminist, I would be far more concerned about the message ArenaNet has sent by demonstrating how easy it is to get female employees fired, than I would be about the feelings of a man whose advice was rejected.
If I was a feminist.
What point are you making exactly? That even if Arena Net wanted to fire her, they should have not because it can be perceived as caving to gamergaters?
I will join in with the general consensus in the thread and say that neither employee should have been fired, that said, I think it is a step too far to ascribe malice or cowardice to this.
I will join in with the general consensus in the thread and say that neither employee should have been fired, that said, I think it is a step too far to ascribe malice or cowardice to this.
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Go back and inform yourself on what actually went down. A member of their community approached the writer in question in a public twitter thread attempting to start a benign and respectful conversation and was instantly shot down with open scorn, hostility and namecalling. It was not and did not become a gender issue until the offended party decided to turn it into one. Let's not also conveniently forget that a male employee was also fired for joining in. Personally, I think the firings were too extreme a reaction but, then again, said writer had a history of hostile behavior online and as someone who does represent the company by stating their position in their twitter bio wether they intend to or not, it's understandable to an extent why Arenanet were forced to take action. The situation was just a whole damn mess all around.
Also please stop conflating a minority of sadsack losers with entire communities to try to make a point. You should know better than that.
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Kind of a silly take.
You can disagree with whether or not what was said was grounds for termination rather than a reprimand, but you objectively cannot claim that this happened for "no reason".
You can disagree with whether or not what was said was grounds for termination rather than a reprimand, but you objectively cannot claim that this happened for "no reason".
Are you saying they should be allowed to do whatever they want without repercussion because it might embolden some different group of assholes?
I don't like the firing personally but the hate group should not be used to excuse ones own personal failure.
I mean I think the fact that some people are far, far more concerned about the feelings of a random guy than the ability of a woman to continue her career and support herself is very telling. People can talk about "representing the company" and whatnot but ultimately, what it comes down to is that she made a man feel bad, and by extension, the many men who are their customers. And for that unforgivable transgression she deserves to lose her job. But there's no sexism problem in the gaming industry, nope, and even if there is, how dare you connect it to this. The fact that a misogynist hate campaign instantaneously sprung up afterwards is entirely unrelated and has absolutely no connection to what a female game developer might experience online.
I understand that, but in most cases the issues can be addressed on a case by case basis. I think the major issue was devs thought they were harder working than the Voice actors. The strike had some merit, but the majority of it was just to put the union in a better bargaining position with their negotiation with Film and TV
Of course they did as they saw a chance to do it, though it's not like they usually even need that reason and do it anyway. You think they would be silent here where they can legitimely point out a female developer going overboard, they absolutely jump on that chance. But that doesn't erase the behaviour from Price. And of course there's a sexism problem in the gaming industry, that problem is pretty much everywhere and since gaming has been for so long seen as a "boys club" it's really prominent here.
It is not actually that easy. In this case, what she needed to not get fired was not call a respectful customer a "rando asshat" and be an asshole to him at every opportunity, simply because he was a man. That's a pretty low bar and should be the expectation for any employee, man or woman. Failure to clear that very low bar which is expected of any employee dealing with customers might and probably should get you the boot, regardless of your gender.
It is not the case in life that people being an asshole to you (presumably harrassment at some point in her career) gives you license to be an asshole to unrelated, polite people. Those saying otherwise need to grow the fuck up.
Yeah, that's all he said but it took four whole tweets to do it after asking for permission and then proceeding before being granted it. I kind of see her perspective in that the tweets seemed disingenuous to me - and passive aggressive. Maybe he wasn't sexist, but he was being a bit of a tool.
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Again, there were no gender issues involved in the whole affair whatsoever until the offended party decided to play that card for some reason.
But by all means do keep fighting that good fight. You've more than proven you're woke af.
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What concerns me deeply about this whole debacle is that multiple gaming news sites are twisting the narrative on this to suit their purpose.
Even some sites that some individuals respect here. And even though others in forums on said sites are proving said articles wrong, that twisting of the narrative is continuing.
Which is why I am glad many of the posts here are reflecting the truth of what happened here. It means they have researched the issue and have not taken those articles at face value.
I have to say I don't much care for that twisting of the narrative. It's immensely disappointing to me.
As I've said previously in another thread, I support women very strongly in any and all fields. But I also strongly believe in the absolute truth, even if it can be unfortunately ugly.
And I feel personally that said news sites are twisting the narrative into something that is masking what truly happened. Which is heavily disconcerting to me.
Also, as I have stated previously, for those who feel that her Twitter account was personal, etc...please remember what happened to Roseanne Barr due to what she was posting on her own personal twitter account.
I ask all for a deep measure of civility in this discussion please. Really bothers me when people get so vitriolic over issues.
Even some sites that some individuals respect here. And even though others in forums on said sites are proving said articles wrong, that twisting of the narrative is continuing.
Which is why I am glad many of the posts here are reflecting the truth of what happened here. It means they have researched the issue and have not taken those articles at face value.
I have to say I don't much care for that twisting of the narrative. It's immensely disappointing to me.
As I've said previously in another thread, I support women very strongly in any and all fields. But I also strongly believe in the absolute truth, even if it can be unfortunately ugly.
And I feel personally that said news sites are twisting the narrative into something that is masking what truly happened. Which is heavily disconcerting to me.
Also, as I have stated previously, for those who feel that her Twitter account was personal, etc...please remember what happened to Roseanne Barr due to what she was posting on her own personal twitter account.
I ask all for a deep measure of civility in this discussion please. Really bothers me when people get so vitriolic over issues.
You hated Nina? Monster.
My heart broke when I found out she is an actress.
Nina is the gaming CEO we deserve and need.
Regardless of the perceived offense being caused here (I'm going to say "basically none," but y'all keep going on about how rude she was to a member of the community while people like Hideki Kamiya routinely tell people to fuck off with zero repercussions), one thing that is clear here is that there was barely any process followed that led to the firing of two people. Firing is usually reserved as a last resort, something you do when you think there's no value to keeping that employee on board. There was no sense of "you clearly violated these rules and you need to do better or you're out," there was no performance review or remediation plan or any sense that the company was trying to salvage their employee, who let's remember is going to be costly to replace and retrain, not to mention the time and effort that would be required to get that person up to speed. Instead, what appears to have happened is one of the owners of the company had a hissy fit and fired her on the spot, and then fired the other guy a few hours later.
There are plenty of reasons to think that this wasn't a great look. If the company indeed never described their social media policy to her, and pulled her out of orientation to have her do work for the company, her first offense shouldn't be something that leads to her firing. If Arenanet doesn't want their employees to be on social media at all, that expectation should've been clear. If Arenanet doesn't want their employees to disparage the community even on their personal social media channels, that's a lot more understandable but that should've been clear as well. If we take Price's comments at face value, she had that conversation with Arenanet in the past and was told to keep on keepin' on. That at minimum would indicate mixed signals.
And let's talk about that other guy for a second. Assume for the moment that telling a Guild Wars 2 fan that they're a "rando asshat" is the height of impropriety, essentially equivalent to pulling down your pants and pissing in the face of a world leader. What about the person who defended her actions with what appears to be pretty tame language:
What's his capital offense? Why did he deserve to be fired? How is his comment impolite or unwarranted?
You don't want to make this about misogyny in gaming, want to forget the existence of the hate mob now contacting random game developers in an effort to get women fired? You want to pretend this is an isolated incident that has nothing to do with any of that, it's just about one developer being a jerk to the fanbase? Well, you still need to address the problems with this specific incident. If you want to argue that Arenanet was completely within their rights legally speaking, you'd be correct, but that just punts the issue down the road. Would you want to work for a company like Arenanet knowing that you're one social media slipup from looking for another job? I definitely wouldn't.
And that's not even getting into a whole lot of other concepts worth tackling. For example: if a developer makes a mistake in judgement when talking to a player of the game, is that a fireable offense? What happens if we expect developers to be pitch-perfect when talking about their games at the risk of being sacked? Is it realistic for a company to tell people to close down their personal social media accounts? If it isn't, what is realistic for them to ask? Lots of people keep their personal social media accounts solely for non-work discussion; should that be the expectation going forward? How much should developers be expected to interact with the community?
There are plenty of reasons to think that this wasn't a great look. If the company indeed never described their social media policy to her, and pulled her out of orientation to have her do work for the company, her first offense shouldn't be something that leads to her firing. If Arenanet doesn't want their employees to be on social media at all, that expectation should've been clear. If Arenanet doesn't want their employees to disparage the community even on their personal social media channels, that's a lot more understandable but that should've been clear as well. If we take Price's comments at face value, she had that conversation with Arenanet in the past and was told to keep on keepin' on. That at minimum would indicate mixed signals.
And let's talk about that other guy for a second. Assume for the moment that telling a Guild Wars 2 fan that they're a "rando asshat" is the height of impropriety, essentially equivalent to pulling down your pants and pissing in the face of a world leader. What about the person who defended her actions with what appears to be pretty tame language:
What's his capital offense? Why did he deserve to be fired? How is his comment impolite or unwarranted?
You don't want to make this about misogyny in gaming, want to forget the existence of the hate mob now contacting random game developers in an effort to get women fired? You want to pretend this is an isolated incident that has nothing to do with any of that, it's just about one developer being a jerk to the fanbase? Well, you still need to address the problems with this specific incident. If you want to argue that Arenanet was completely within their rights legally speaking, you'd be correct, but that just punts the issue down the road. Would you want to work for a company like Arenanet knowing that you're one social media slipup from looking for another job? I definitely wouldn't.
And that's not even getting into a whole lot of other concepts worth tackling. For example: if a developer makes a mistake in judgement when talking to a player of the game, is that a fireable offense? What happens if we expect developers to be pitch-perfect when talking about their games at the risk of being sacked? Is it realistic for a company to tell people to close down their personal social media accounts? If it isn't, what is realistic for them to ask? Lots of people keep their personal social media accounts solely for non-work discussion; should that be the expectation going forward? How much should developers be expected to interact with the community?
I don't know exactly why I'm replying this but it has something to do with twitter vs clothes purpose. If you don't want to engage in discussions I think there are social networks for shouts or things like this.
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1. what roseanne barr said was worse
2. in the context of a discussion about labour rights, there is a big difference between being a employee on a company's payroll, and being a third party contractor. the two cases are not directly comparable
A simple reply like " branching dialog is not always the answer and it add to workload " and the discussion would have ended.
or she could have ...ignored the tweet in question.
you can't claim passive agressive when the guy was clearly a fan and was known from the community and arena.net way before this. It's only passive agressive if you ignore the context.
This situation is definitely a little muddy... She was pretty out-of-line; that being said, I don't think what she did was a fireable offense. I think she handled herself poorly, but placed in context I think it is a little more understandable. Also, as poorly as she may have handled herself, I think ArenaNet handled themselves much, much worse. Unless she has a history of creating these kinds of problems, and she has received multiple warnings, it seems ridiculous to fire her for this. On that note, even if it were a fireable offense, you don't drag someone through the dirt before you fire them. You don't call them into your office, scream at them, and then kick them to the curb. That is incredibly unprofessional, not to mention inhumane. Worst of all, this has bolstered the worst kind of shits on the internet. This entire situation is exhausting and makes me sad.
Who are these people that you refer to?
Why do you constantly ignore the facts, in that it was nothing down to the sex of anyone until she made it so?
Where does it say that she was fired because she was rude to a man (as opposed to an individual who was a respected and influential community member)?
> what it comes down to is that she made a man feel bad, and by extension, the many men who are their customers. And for that unforgivable transgression she deserves to lose her job
Evidence please, or stop spouting this inflammatory nonsense.
> here's no sexism problem in the gaming industry, nope, and even if there is, how dare you connect it to this
Absolute bollocks. No one has said there's isn't an issue, and there's a shit-ton of evidence to say there is. The whole point, which you are failing to address is that this particular sacking was nothing to do with sexism until she cried wolf and made it so, undermining the actual cases where sexism is an issue.
> The fact that a misogynist hate campaign instantaneously sprung up afterwards is entirely unrelated and has absolutely no connection to what a female game developer might experience online
Anyone can see that this would be the response but it doesn't make your assertion that she suffered due to sexism true.
ArenaNet response by firing her and her co-worker is a too much,but she did being rude to one influential member in their game community. And then there's her comment about total biscuit... that probably did more damage than her rando asshat comment
1: That's a given yes. But it still does not change the fact that Twitter is not a "Private" space. She followed up on an AMA with additional thoughts. She did not state in said follow up that she respectfully wished for others to not reply to her series of posts. In addition, she did not make the posts or her account private.
It is in this sense that there is a simularity. Twitter is a public space, and she was representing the company directly in the contexts of her posts. We may not like it that she was fired. Personally I feel her firing was justified but I have worked in multiple companies across the years where there is an established Social Media policy that I understand all too well.
If I had acted as she had, I would have been fired too.
2: Labour rights means little unfortunately in states that are right to work. I am not sure if hers is, but mine is, much to my immense hatred as I hate right to work states.
As it stands, her actions led to the outcome. She could have ignored the post or respectfully said " Sorry I don't agree" and could have left it at that.
In my opinion, she was extremely rude and unprofessional in a capacity representing her company. We may disagree on this, and that's cool. I understand where you are coming from.
The whole situation is rather unfortunate.
I fear commenting about it since 3 threads have been locked already, but I don't understand ERA's stance on this. The employee was a dick, gender had literally nothing to do with it. Was ArenaNet's reaction harsh? Definitely, but I don't see a single reason to side with her
She was more than slightly rude. If firing hadn't been on the table after that kind of verbal abuse, I would have questioned the priorities of her company.
Seriously, you're defending an episode of breathtaking nastiness that involved a bad faith accusation of sexism toward a completely benign message. The lady acted like a giant asshole, and while it's unfortunate that actual sexists jumped on this wagon, the penalty was proportionate to the mistake.
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the entire point of this satire though is about the gaming industry posturing as being progressive, while taking advantage of things like right to work laws
from the piece:
In what what world (besides being president of the US it seems) are you allowed to shit on your customers and not expect you could be fired? If someone in retail responded to a customer returning a product by calling them an asshat, would they not be fired? What about software developers, jesus if I responded by calling every person who is not a developer an asshat everytime they made a stupid programming suggestion, i would have been out of the business decades ago. She got caught in a bad moment, firing is probably harsh, but if you shit on your customers you have to know that its a possibility.
This is my take as well. Sucks to get fired, but that's what can happen if you represent the company negatively.
This is weak. The ArenaNet firings wasn't the SJW draconianism this "satire" is trying to suggest. It was a company clearly scared of being a GG target.
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I'm not talking about the asshat part. Not that it's OK to say that to a customer on social media.
The Satire is not missed on me at all. It is a way of commenting on a series of unfortunate events that have occurred.
However, while I can appreciate the Satire and the point it is trying to make, I do not feel it applies in full to this situation. Some yes, but not in full.
An individuals poor decisions caused this ordeal. And Employers are not in the habit of airing previous infractions to the public for legal reasons.
At will employment just made this whole ordeal easier for Arena Net to let her go vs a good deal of paperwork etc other states, if they are in an at will state.
As I said. I hate right to work states. They frigging suck, and I would love to see those laws wiped
out completely.
love to have massive fucking blinders on when it comes to labor rights, can't get enough of that shit