Trudeau: "Without recent escalations in the region, Iran plane crash victims would be home with their families right now"

prophetvx

Member
Nov 28, 2017
1,480
See now this is taking shit to an illogical conclusion.

Blaming US voters, whom by a majority voted to elect Hillary Clinton.
2.9 million more people voted for Clinton. ~7.5 million voted for candidates other than Trump. About 100 million additional people who were eligible to vote decided not to.

Yeah, US voters are responsible for Trump.
 

sangreal

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,938
When you pull a gun on someone and the other person pulls a gun back and someone innocent gets shot in the chaos that ensues ... both of those parties have blame.

They escalated tensions to a ridiculous degree, it doesn't take much for a mistake to happen after that.
what about when you bomb another country and then psych yourself out so much about retaliation that you end up blowing up your own passenger jet in fear? Because that’s what happened. Yes, Trump has done his share of escalation going back (at least) to the nuclear deal withdrawal — but it was not killing Soleimani that raised tension to a critical degree that night. It was Iran’s own escalation that left them in fear of immediate retaliation (which never came). If you really want to play the “yeah but if it wasn’t for [earlier event]” game you’ll have to go back until the Shah or earlier
 

NyMartin90

Member
Oct 31, 2017
555
These systems are still run by human beings, a mistake can happen at any time, the situation being escalated to a ridiculous degree is what caused the whole mess to get to that point.
So begs the question, did the person of "human error" think the plane was an American plane? If so then they didn't really just want it to be a "show of force" then. Don't they have flight patterns for civilian flight paths? Don't they communicate with their own airport and air authority? Someone in command had to approve SAM targetting since the missiles in the "show of force" were surface to surface missiles. WHY did they allow airports to continue operations and business as usual?
Or was this all "human error" acting without approval from command?
If its the last option, that's really not a good look for Iran to say that they have a modern DISCIPLINED military.
 
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UltraMagnus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,074
So begs the question, did the person of "human error" think the plane was an American plane? If so then they didn't really just want it to be a "show of force" then. Don't they have flight patterns for civilian flight paths? Don't they communicate with their own airport and air authority? Someone in command had to approve SAM targetting since the missiles in the "show of force" were surface to surface missiles.
Or was this all "human error" acting without approval from command?
If its the last option, that's really not a good look for Iran to say that they have a modern DISCIPLINED military.
The US has shot down an Iranian plane by accident as well killing 290 people in the past. This stuff can happen. The situation escalating massively like that is on Trump.
 

UltraMagnus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,074
what about when you bomb another country and then psych yourself out so much about retaliation that you end up blowing up your own passenger jet in fear? Because that’s what happened. Yes, Trump has done his share of escalation going back (at least) to the nuclear deal withdrawal — but it was not killing Soleimani that raised tension to a critical degree that night. It was Iran’s own escalation that left them in fear of immediate retaliation (which never came). If you really want to play the “yeah but if it wasn’t for [earlier event]” game you’ll have to go back until the Shah or earlier
Assassinating the 2nd in command of any country is not some little event, it's a major game changer, regardless of the politics, it's basically an act of war, they pushed it to that point, and they are culpable for the situation being what it was.
 

NyMartin90

Member
Oct 31, 2017
555
The US has shot down an Iranian plane by accident as well killing 290 people in the past. This stuff can happen. The situation escalating massively like that is on Trump.
Indeed I agree that Trump has blame as I've mentioned in past posts and the Iranian plane downed in '88 is known but I guess the questions I asked about internal logistics of Iran, it's high command, it's communication between military and airports/institutions don't matter in this discussion.
 

Mike Works

Member
Oct 28, 2017
737
Can we fucking stop with this? This is 100% Iran's fault.
As a Canadian, this gets a big nope from me. America has blood of these passengers on its hands too.
As a Canadian, this is a bad take and it's all Iran's fault, and I also don't know what the hell being a Canadian has anything to do with this matter

Reminder: they shot a civilian plane leaving their own airport
The level of rope people are willing to give the government of Iran is astonishing.
^^^super fun exchange in the last thread where I was accused of stanning for the government of Iran for suggesting America was at fault for these deaths as well. Glad to see common fucking sense is breaking through, both in the public eye and on this forum.
 

Marin-Lune

Member
Oct 27, 2017
376
I mean, even Rouhani had the decency in the end not to turn this into a PR exercise against the shit US warmongering, that should speak volumes enough.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,768
Why would anyone defend Trump?

Trump inflamed an already horrible regime with his actions. Iran reacted with recklessness and no concern for the lives of its own citizens.

Both the Iranian Government and Trump are shit.

There is nothing to defend here. They're all guilty of warmongering.
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,272
^^^super fun exchange in the last thread where I was accused of stanning for the government of Iran for suggesting America was at fault for these deaths as well. Glad to see common fucking sense is breaking through, both in the public eye and on this forum.
Because Trudeau said it was the USA's fault then it must be true? That is some, "well, we don't have an argument so let's appeal to authority."

Miss me with that. Y'all found a figure head that agreed with you and can only say "100% agree".

You seemed to even misconstrue what was even being said by those posts so you're not doing yourself aby favors.
 

GuessMyUserName

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,970
Toronto
Claiming that Trump bears zero responsibility at all for what happened is defending Trump, yes. Fuck right out of here with it, there is absolutely no need to absolve the US's actions just because their role was indirect and lesser to Iran's. What Trudeau says is the factual assessment, without unnecessary escalations hundreds of people would be alive today and people should be fucking asking themselves why they can't acknowledge that.

Blaming the US for its share is not absolving Iran at fucking all for theirs, there can be multiple sources of blame of varying levels. Swatters are not blameless if they lead to a loss of life just because a different person made the direct mistake of pulling the trigger. The shit people have been saying about "zero fault" is absolutely disgraceful in the face of all the lives lost to these horrific actors.
 
Dec 11, 2017
8,391
Because Trudeau said it was the USA's fault then it must be true? That is some, "well, we don't have an argument so let's appeal to authority."

Miss me with that. Y'all found a figure head that agreed with you and can only say "100% agree".
It’s not true because Trudeau said it was true. It’s true because reality proves it’s fucking true. If we as Americans want to make ourselves feel better we can blame it on Trump specifically - which isn’t totally out of whack since if it were up to our military they would have avoided the strike on Soleimani - but the reality is this is on us as a country for voting the fucker in. It was a forgone conclusion that his stupidity would end in deaths at some point.


Claiming that Trump bears zero responsibility at all for what happened is defending Trump, yes. Fuck right out of here with it
Yup.
 

_Karooo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,773
He's right but he can't ask the US for compensation neither can Ukraine because you know Iran shot down the plane.
 

Avitus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,131
Claiming Trump is responsible might be a winning argument in Canada but it's a losing one in the states.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,313
Nah let’s just sweep our own shit under the rug and focus on their transgressions instead.
 

Mike Works

Member
Oct 28, 2017
737
User Warned: Avatar Shaming
Because Trudeau said it was the USA's fault then it must be true? That is some, "well, we don't have an argument so let's appeal to authority."

Miss me with that. Y'all found a figure head that agreed with you and can only say "100% agree".

You seemed to even misconstrue what was even being said by those posts so you're not doing yourself aby favors.
I literally stated my argument before there was any authority to appeal to, anime avatar. Miss me with your lack of reading comprehension.

And this guy's not "a figure head", he's the leader of Canada, and it's a very big move for him to come out publicly and say these things. For him to do so is not just a personal attribution, but a governing stance.

Ten bucks says if I search your post history I'll find a bunch of posts from you claiming the USA is blameless in this event. Your opinion has been heard.
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,272
I literally stated my argument before there was any authority to appeal to, anime avatar. Miss me with your lack of reading comprehension.

And this guy's not "a figure head", he's the leader of Canada, and it's a very big move for him to come out publicly and say these things. For him to do so is not just a personal attribution, but a governing stance.

Ten bucks says if I search your post history I'll find a bunch of posts from you claiming the USA is blameless in this event. Your opinion has been heard.
"anime avatar"

you ruined your own argument
 

Tochtli79

Member
Jun 27, 2019
939
Mexico City
The US shouldn't get to go around killing generals and threatening to bomb cultural sites of any country and then act like they didn't do anything when that country reacts in a panic. Especially countries with known reactionary governments in unstable regions.
 

blakeseven

Member
Apr 9, 2018
258
I guess the PM of Canada didn't get the memo that the event wasn't in fact due to escalating tensions but 100% due to Iran
 

Sloth Guevara

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,124
He is right in the money.
But two things can be correct.
Iran did fuck up, but again they ARE a murderous regime so...

but my biggest take away is that US imperialism is a detriment to the world.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
789
So begs the question, did the person of "human error" think the plane was an American plane? If so then they didn't really just want it to be a "show of force" then. Don't they have flight patterns for civilian flight paths? Don't they communicate with their own airport and air authority? Someone in command had to approve SAM targetting since the missiles in the "show of force" were surface to surface missiles. WHY did they allow airports to continue operations and business as usual?
Or was this all "human error" acting without approval from command?
If its the last option, that's really not a good look for Iran to say that they have a modern DISCIPLINED military.
Woah, woah.

It's entirely conceivable that they initiated a show of force first but absolutely felt they had to protect their actual territory with deadly force, one doesn't disqualify the other. Turkey shot down a Russian fighter jet for the same reason and I wouldn't say tensions were as high between Turkey and Russia as they are Iran and the United States.

Iran using non-deadly force for a response in no way means that from that point on they planned to use non-violent force even if they thought they were being bombed. Real talk, I bet they plan on using deadly force somewhere in the future, it's not like one show of force means they've turned into pacifists or some shit.

I don't know where Iran's final error in the chain was but wherever it was it's not a good look for their military.
 

Adventureracing

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
2,798
I haven’t seen any logical argument to disagree with that. Also the response to what has happened is concerning. Even on this forum where usually Trump is near unanimously hated you can see a lot of people defending him. Seems patriotism still comes first. Kinda concerning leading up to the election this year.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
789
I haven’t seen any logical argument to disagree with that. Also the response to what has happened is concerning. Even on this forum where usually Trump is near unanimously hated you can see a lot of people defending him. Seems patriotism still comes first. Kinda concerning leading up to the election this year.
Always. Sadly. Even I can't help it sometimes. If people really cared about the rest of the world we'd stop having candidates foreign policy stances be near the end of the list, right now it's always behind "what can they do for me?"

Though in our case, the US, I imagine that a sane foreign policy would result in more progressive programs at home because there'd be no reason to have such a large military without using it every year and if we actually committed to that stance for more than a single Presidency we'd start having a lot more money available for use domestically.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,551
Responsibility and guilt are not finite resources nor tug of war scales. Iran is responsible for shooting the plane done with their incompetence and negligence while the US is responsible for escalating the already tight relationship with no valid reasons. Anyone who wants to absolve Trump or the US of all responsibilities is a hypocrite and doesn't get why other nations think the US is often seen as a tyrant.
 

TSM

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,285
Wouldn't that be just one of the many check boxes ticked off that eventually led to Iran to shoot down a civilian air liner leaving their own airport?
 

Vagabundo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,187
Assassinating the 2nd in command of any country is not some little event, it's a major game changer, regardless of the politics, it's basically an act of war, they pushed it to that point, and they are culpable for the situation being what it was.
Imagine America's response if Iran killed Pence while he was in Canada.
 

gutter_trash

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,652
Montreal
Iran are evil fucks, yeah
Saudi Arabia are evils fucks, yeah

The US's problem is that they are Saudi Arabia's bitch

It's just that the US has picked a side, Trump owes Saudis money. MBS has leverage on Trump. Trump did MBS's dirty work by assassinating Solemani on Iraq soil

This heightened tensions, cause Iran to put up their defence.

am Iranian manned S-A-M shot down a passenger plane. Iran are total morons. Evil, and Morons

but this shit wouldn't have happened if Trump didn't act like MBS's little bitch.

Trudeau is right.

Trudeau is always right

--

you know the US fucked up when Bibi in Israel wants nothing to do with your mess in Iran
 

GrizzleBoy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,330
The two previous presidents consciously chose not to take out Soleimani, because they know that killing a guy doesnt shatter the politics of an entire region.

Maybe the head of some decentralized gang, but not no.2 in a countries official military.

There is always someone just below them itching to take their place.

Who truly believes that Iran will change much of anything in a positive way after this skirmish?

As far as I can see, Iran has been able to retaliate extremely disproportionately with the lives of almost 200 innocents including 60+ north Americans and I think 3 brits.

And they're going to get away with it.
 

Daphne

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,560
It's still Iran's fault, even if recent US activity created the circumstances that lead to this.
So you agree that the US, specifically Trump, shares some blame for this tragedy. That's simply what everyone is saying and it has no bearing on the extent of Iran's responsibility (which is direct and primary responsibility); it's very disingenuous to suggest people are saying it does. Blame never runs out and expands to accommodate anyone who deserves some. Trump deserves some. Iran's military deserves huge truckloads of it.
 
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OP
OP
.Detective.

.Detective.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,533
Still find it strange that some folks cannot see that the blame for the current situation can infact be laid at the feet of more than one party.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,579
Still find it strange that some folks cannot see that the blame for the current situation can infact be laid at the feet of more than one party.
It’s bizarre. Worse, it’s at least two mods. If you look through the threads you’ll even see the trend is clearly people quoting anybody blaming Trump and insisting it’s only on Iran, while hardly anyone (if anyone) is quoting those condemning or blaming Iran trying to convince them it’s all on Trump. Yet somehow that’s how they keep spinning it. That there are some mythical posters going around trying to convince people it’s entirely Trump’s fault and Iran is completely blameless.
 

entrydenied

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,551
It’s bizarre. Worse, it’s at least two mods. If you look through the threads you’ll even see the trend is clearly people quoting anybody blaming Trump and insisting it’s only on Iran, while hardly anyone (if anyone) is quoting those condemning or blaming Iran trying to convince them it’s all on Trump. Yet somehow that’s how they keep spinning it. That there are some mythical posters going around trying to convince people it’s entirely Trump’s fault and Iran is completely blameless.
Yup. So far I have only seen posters who say that this is 100% on Iran but not one single post stating that this in entirely on the US/Trump while saying that Iran is faultless, but yet posters kept acting as though there are posters who think that way.