CNN has been on the both sides bullshit all night tonight.
US PoliERA 2019 |OT2| #PresidentPelosi
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CNN has been on the both sides bullshit all night tonight.
Are you dense or just stupid? It wasn't the content of the tweet, it was the wording! Please work on your reading comprehension. And before you goysplain at me that "actually there was no problem", your leftist waifu AOC certainly thought there was! That's why she's a successful politician, she knows how to speak to people and not over them!
neither dense or stupid. I understand context. you are fixated on compartmentalizing her words and basing views of of that. I am looking at what she responded to and what she meant with lobbying. she was talking of lobbying influence by lobbying groups on republicans, you are ignoring that context and so are many others. thankfully many had a more thoughtful response
https://thinkprogress.org/american-...9705&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
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truly it boggles the mind how a Jewish person at any point left of Manchin could be legitimately worried about the word choice of someone who literally still hasn't deleted a 7 year old tweet about how "Israel has hypnotized the world"
I'm actually not worried about her that much! Her apology showed that she's willing to listen and learn from people. Some of her fans could stand to do the same.
(She might want to delete that tweet though. It doesn't bother me but it's not a great look, and the fewer avenues of attack that bad actors have the better).
Yeah. I guess he's just going to lie about it being built now. I guess it doesn't really matter since that 35% base will follow him no matter what.
It's whatever. I personally see this as proof that intersectionality doesn't work for black people re: the Democratic Party. It is what it is.
Even talking about it just sort of bums me out because of how evident it is that this sort of coalition-building is almost impossible.
Please. Just listen to me. Please. It's nothing to do with her race. It's to do with people using language like that against me and people like me for as long as we've been, well, people. I'm aware it's a song lyric. That doesn't make it ok. I'm not even worried about her at this point. I'm worried at the people who will stop at nothing to talk over me and tell me that my feelings don't matter.
This isn't an anti immigrant take. It's just a look at how a lot of black immigrants view black americans as lazy and self-limiting from their own success in america. It's something I've had to stop my own parents from doing. It's something i've heard from loads of African first gens about their parents as well.
Yvonne Orji talked about it on TBC as well.
If you're able to come here and look down on black Americans, it shows the differences between the experiences in each community.
In terms of policy, targeting AA communites and their neighborhoods/communities is a good start. I think it'd be better to detach wealthier groups from the broad based approaches you see in affirmative action and other policies right now.
Our somnambulant vice president's Twitter postings are as bland and irrelevant as he is.
Oh, dear, you're really aceing this argument.
Replying to a Jewish person desperately asking for someone to understand his and his community's concerns - after repeatedly stressing that he's forgiven Omar, is fairly sure she had no ill intent, and just wants people to listen - with "Yeah but do you say anything about TRUMP?" as though that's some sleight of rhetorical genius, as though Trump's bigotry doesn't receive ample attention and condemnation from everyone in this thread.
And you genuinely wonder why people react so harshly to you when you say such ugly, stupid shit.
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this actually does seem to me like a hurdle for intersectionality wrt the Democratic Party, but it's less that it doesn't work and more that it'd be easier to get it working if we'd quit tripping over our own dicks with relatively basic shit. it's like if... trying to picture the whitest Democrat in Congress and I'm drawing a blank... made a clumsy joke that got construed as a "magic Negro" reference, only with less institutional power behind it
Please, just listen to me. The outpouring of vitriol against Omar, compared to the vitriol that white Republicans get for saying shit that is clearly anti-semitic is not the same and is indicative of how the party and the interest groups feel about black women in comparison to how they come out against white men.
I don't even want to argue with you here. It's pointless. You are not my ally. I'm here to be part of a political coalition with you, and that's it.
AIPAC going so far as to raise money off of Omar's comments when we've got countless insane tweets and comments from GOP leadership that haven't gotten a tenth of the scrutiny tells me that race is a factor in the response. Sorry, but it is what it is. So you can feel how you feel, and I'm going to feel how I feel about it, and I don't care to change your mind.
And you're not going to change mine. Let's just agree to vote toward a common goal as long as we have any.
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He's spot on. These are the conversations that are going on and the things that people are saying.
Everyone looks down on AAs. Just hand waving it away as a generalization and not recognizing the diaspora discussions folks have been having for years is stupid. Please.
How many statements did you just see blasting Northam? This is a similar situation (in terms of party higherups swiftly getting a response out) but with far less severity because this was an "good apology, anyone that actually cared should be done here" situation. The GOP is calling for the AG's head in VA too and we haven't reciprocated there. The only time you're gonna see them come out like this is when there's significant internal pressure, which it turns out there very much was.
It's common enough that I know exactly what Rasta's talking about the attitudes of some African immigrants even though I'm a white guy. "12 Years a Slave" is good helping hand/kick in the ass for explaining why the fuck things are different here.
But this doesn't address my issue at all, and you know what, I don't even think that this is worth discussing here.
I can only tell you how I feel and how some other black folks who I've talked to about this generally feel, and speaking for myself, I definitely wouldn't compare this to response to Northam because I don't think that Northam's issue is the same as what Omar is getting tagged for.
You shoulda seen the other one!
I'm not comparing the severity, I'm comparing the style. Strong denunciation, corrective action. This is how politics works when part of your internal coalition is upset.
For a poster that is usually pretty good this is a shocking post. What, exactly, do you mean to say when you say that you are not an ally when it comes to anti-Semitism?
I think we've got our wires crossed here. I was talking about my personal reaction, and I think you're more concerned with the larger picture. I agree that there's a great deal of hypocrisy on what gets called out and what doesn't. I don't personally call out Trump constantly because it's futile. There's no fixing Trump. He'll always be a monster. I aired my concerns on Omar because she's not. She's willing to listen to people and grow. That's what I like about her. Race is definitely a massive issue here, but it certainly never entered the equation for me.
It's a shame that you don't want me to be your ally, because I think of the black community as allies, and I'd like to think they'd do the same for me. If not, that's OK, but it's a shame, since I think I can learn a lot from you. I agree with pretty much everything you said here. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
Fair enough, I have seen 12 years but not in a long time. I'll give it a rewatch.
Dem leadership made individual comments on Northam but that joint statement was very severe against rep Omar. Overly so, all things considered.
Their response should have been this (they should have waited and coordinated with her):
They threw her under the bus.
Their response should have been this (they should have waited and coordinated with her):
They threw her under the bus.
I definitely agree. I would have preferred if this were handled quietly. Also that Max Rose response is pretty much perfect.
Oh no, I meant for immigrants coming here. Missing US history will cause someone to miss the time you spend as a kid on Slavery, assuming they're in a decent area.
Or you let her give the apology first and then say its been dealt with and move on. Doing the statement an hour or so before the apology which was coming seems odd, unless I'm missing something.
Oh I've met and spoken with these sorts of people many times over the course of my life. Often at the barber shop LOL
I think they're fucking stupid but free speech and all that :P
Literally nobody here thinks Omar is anti-Semitic. Almost everybody here agrees with her broader points. I even agree that there was a bit of an overreaction. But there was a legit issue with her choice of words. She could have made her same point better. She was sloppy. Pelosi, AOC, etc. don't care what McCarthy or Scalise or Pence (ignore them they would be saying shit no matter what happened) have to say on the subject. They care that Jewish Democrats like Max Rose found the tweets problematic (and he then defended Omar after she had apologized and called out GOP hypocrisy).
Look I'm not Jewish. But as a Black person, if I said "I don't think X person is racist and they are making a great point but what they said erred too close to racist anti-Black stereotypes and I don't like it" I would hope people would listen instead of dismiss my opinion? I mean we can have a debate and I obviously don't speak for all Black people at least acknowledge I would be making an objection in good faith unlike the GOP?
Northam is not elected to any federal office. Anything that gets said about him in DC is just posturing.
Omar is a member of the House that Democrats control. They're directly in charge of their members, and they had an obligation to respond to try to keep it from getting out of hand.
It's coordinated to give everyone the maximum amount of credibility.
Leadership condemns anti-semitism, Omar issues a sincere apology, and the party moves forward together.
I think so too. He's also a good foil that Warren and other Dems can point to as a walking/talking example of how out of touch the ultra wealthy are.
Thanks for this post as well. I've just gotten kind of sick of the vitriol on Omar. On the radio yesterday I heard some craaaazy mad talk on Omar on a level I've never heard from him re trump in the twin cities and the host is generally pretty level headed and center-left and it just felt kind of disingenuous. I see that is not the case here and I will edit my previous post. I'm sorry.
I have decided that I don't believe in allyship. I believe in political coalitions that achieve goals without the touchy-feely "I just want to understand you"-ness that seems to define this concept of being an ally, at least as far as I understand the concept of allyship in 2019.
I find that people who, for example, ask "How can I be a good ally?" aren't often really interested in being a good ally. I look, for example, at the intersectional issues within feminism where white feminists present as allies, but then there is no actual equity in these organizations between white, brown, and black allies, and it feels pretty hopeless. There is a great Kos thread about this where someone who worked with feminist organizations who wanted to up their brown and black numbers then generally didn't want to do the actual stuff to up those numbers that I wish I could link here as an example.
Anyway, I'm absolutely against anti-Semitism, and I'm interested in a political coalition against this (as I would be against sexism, racism, etc.,), but the response to Omar really made me feel like I shouldn't even trust, for example, the ADL as an ally. It's a fucking shame that they, and the party, came down on Omar like this instead of opening the sort of dialog that you're going to have to have if you want to really be allies. Some Jewish-Americans don't understand that for a lot of black people, they move just as a white Protestant moves. They don't understand the racism that black people DO receive from Jewish-Americans. And I think that this works both ways and that we had a chance to actually have a useful discussion out in the open about what black Americans and what Jewish-Americans should expect from one another.
Instead, we got the ADL dropping a hammer followed by the leadership dropping a hammer followed by AIPAC fundraising off of Omar's tweet.
So I can say that I have no problems with alarms going off in a Jewish-American's head regarding Omar's tweet, but that there was no understanding or attempt to understand the alarms that might go off in a black American's head at the response to that tweet and how it was shaped.
So that's why I'm not interested in presenting as an ally or having this whole thing where Jewish-Americans feel as though they have to identify as our allies. It's all bullshit, I think. I'm interested in coalitions where we can just agree that we're partners against the issues of anti-Semitism and racism, but that we don't have this illusion that there needs to be any trust between us beyond that. We're just voting for the party that will do the most of what we both want, and that's it.
It's cool. I think we just got our wires crossed. I definitely agree that the response was super disproportionate. I'll edit mine too. We're straight.
Right, I gotta go to bed. Still probably worth rewatching 12 years!
I don't think there is a single person here who doesn't think the reaction against Omar wasn't in large part because she was a Black Muslim Woman. The GOP can suck butthole. However, it can be true that there was an overreaction AND she chose her words poorly.
Yeah I think the timing of statements between House leadership and Omar was off and I think made things more sour than they needed to be. It could have been handled better. The important thing is that Dems weren't responding to GOP pressure here, they were responding to internal Dem pressure.
Feel like a major factor here is that Republicans will not pile on other Republicans for racist, xenophobic, anti-Semitic, etc. statements until they've been dragged kicking and screaming, after many many repeated instances by the same repeat offenders. How many times did Steve King blatantly echo or endorse some white supremacist/neo Nazi talking point before Republicans finally actually said, let alone did, something about it? Meanwhile, those same Republicans will quickly pile on Dems as soon as there's blood in the water. A media establishment that also holds Dems to higher standards than Republicans, and has plenty of its own inherent racist and sexist biases, amplifies that pile-on even more. Not trying to discount the role that Omar being a black Muslim woman played into the response, but there's also a cynical partisan element at play in that outpouring of vitriol that Republicans are way more shameless and one-sided about weaponizing.
I definitely wish this thing had gone differently, that's for sure. I'm always willing to listen to anyone on the issues their community faces since that's how I think we'll improve all of our lots in life, but I understand your position.
Per the thread earlier There was a letter of concern signed by about a tenth of the House delegation that Pelosi was responding to. At the Presidential level, Jewish people vote 70-80% Dem. (This number is probably gonna be on the high side in 2020.) That's above the levels for Hispanic voters.
This is also probably true. Everything is amplified in the media and online.
I just wish that leadership had said, "You know, we have two minority groups here, and I don't think they fully understand one another, so let's broker a discussion about this." We might have our Farrakhan types who are a goddam mess when it comes to Jewish people, but most black Americans just don't view Jewish people through the common lens that might be ascribed to a prejudicial WASP (or a WASP in general). That's not our history with Jewish people. We have a different history. If we're going to be in the same party, we need to understand one another, but leadership is responsible for brokering a much-needed dialogue in the media here when we have these misunderstandings.
Instead, we got the same response to Omar that we'd give a clearly anti-Semitic Republican WASP, and it's just fucking infuriating to me, I can't lie. It's really deflating in a way that I can't emphasize enough. And I'd have had no problems if the ADL hadn't put out a press release saying "We want to work with Rep. Omar, and while we don't believe that her words had malice, we need to talk about why Jewish-Americans would hate to hear language like that and where we can work together to talk this out and learn how to treat and talk to one another, even when we disagree," like we need to. And I think the Democratic leadership had a responsibility to do that, too.
AOC put out a pretty fantastic series of tweets saying just that.
And the RT crew tore into her for it. https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1095400443562344454
I know you probably have me on ignore, but if you ever want to have a conversation on this kind of thing, maybe when things have cooled down a bit, my PMs are open. I'm sure you have a lot to teach me, and I'm always willing to learn if it'll make me a better person.
I don't have smoke with AOC. She's not the leadership, either.
I do have smoke with the RT crowd, but we can all agree that they're just here to make it impossible for us to be a working coalition with a minimum of infighting.
I think what you're describing here is perhaps one of the most complex issues in modern society and there's not a lot of people that are equipped to deal with it. It's an important dynamic that needs more discussion.. it's just going to be difficult. Hope some are able to use this as an opportunity to try and take it on.
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