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GYODX

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Oct 27, 2017
7,335
Do you guys remember what it meant to be a progressive in the 00's? Being a progressive back then meant you were an atheist, supported marijuana, supported gay marriage, and wanted Gitmo to shut down. That was your quintessential progressive back then. Almost all political discourse centered around those topics.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Do you guys remember what it meant to be a progressive in the 00's? Being a progressive back then meant you were an atheist, supported marijuana, supported gay marriage, and wanted Gitmo to shut down. That was your quintessential progressive back then. Almost all political discourse centered around those topics.

That's because "progressive" is a malleable term, the meaning of which changes over time. I wouldn't even say supporting gay marriage was a "must have" on the liberal checklist during the Bush era - many people were nervous to go beyond civil unions. Remember, Obama had to "evolve" on the subject, as did pretty much all Democrats.

Hell, Jon Stewart was making transphobic jokes on the Daily Show. It was a dark time.

Thankfully, activists made huge strides in the later 2000s and 2010s on all fronts, and the recession and Occupy brought class struggle back into the mix.
 

TopDreg

Member
Oct 26, 2017
201
Do you guys remember what it meant to be a progressive in the 00's? Being a progressive back then meant you were an atheist, supported marijuana, supported gay marriage, and wanted Gitmo to shut down. That was your quintessential progressive back then. Almost all political discourse centered around those topics.

This should be emphasized more. What were goals before have become so baked as acceptable in much of American politics that we've moved on to other fights. Hell, we didn't have ANY form of universal healthcare before 2010 - that was a hard fought battle that involved having all three branches under Dem control. We are making progress, and Biden is going to sign whatever legislation hits his desk to further progressive goals. Hell, on top of that, he gives us a strong chance at getting that D trifecta again.
 

Amibguous Cad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,033
I don't wanna dogpile, JABEE , but I'm curious: has the relatively generous response to the coronavirus, as compared to the financial crisis, made you any more optimistic auto the future?

I think leftists and... whatever you call Yang supporters did really important work in shifting the Overton window towards greater acceptance of simple cash transfers in response to crises or as an instrument of government policy. Compared to the incredibly short-sighted decision not to offer mortgage forgiveness during the financial crisis, it feels like night and day.

Could you see yourself being satisfied with a scenario in which otherwise centrist politicians like Biden nevertheless support large wealth redistribution programs?
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,335
It's just to say that the notion that no progress can be made under a 'moderate' Democratic President is lacking in perspective, and frankly nonsense.

Many of the things we take for granted today were unimaginable just 10 years ago.
 

Dr. Feel Good

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,996
I don't believe a public option gets us to single-payer and my opinion is the shift by Pete to Medicare for All Who Want It was a rhetorical play to undercut single-payer with a plan that sounds folksy and free that would leave people out and protect the insurance industry.

I am not endorsing any Presidential candidate who isn't for single-payer.

I was probably going to vote for Biden before the story about him raping Tara Reade in conjunction with his history of documented unwanted touching.

I would have voted for Warren. I wouldn't have voted for Bloomberg or Buttigieg.

i love how you describe yourself as pragmatic. You blindly turning your back on anyone who doesn't support your one issue campaign through the exact way you want it is not being pragmatic it's you being a whiny child.
 

fragamemnon

Member
Nov 30, 2017
7,038
Do you guys remember what it meant to be a progressive in the 00's? Being a progressive back then meant you were an atheist, supported marijuana, supported gay marriage, and wanted Gitmo to shut down. That was your quintessential progressive back then. Almost all political discourse centered around those topics.

The big difference is that you always worked through the party, and you'd go in for Stephanie Herseth as hard as you would a 'progressive' candidate. You'd have voices like David Sirota(!) attacking Republicans and rallying around beating down whatever Bush-related crap was going down.

Now party progressives get to live in this online hellscape of trying to win elections while getting trashed from the left by former allies' who replace engagement and cooperation as a means of gaining leverage with performative outrage.
 
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Oct 25, 2017
13,181
80k is low income for a single person in SF. If you're making that much you have to have roommates to survive.
I imagine if you want to live alone and live in San Francisco yeah. But I have friends who make 80k, live in outer SF with roommates, and still have extra money to trade on Robinhood. I feel like a lot of the histrionics about how everyone is on the edge of poverty unless they make six figures in SF is overblown and doesn't help actually address the issues at hand.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,335
I just remembered wanting to tax the churches. Never really hear that one anymore...
 
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TheHunter

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
let's just stop playing this game

How about we just stop arguing with everyone on what they should do or how they should vote. We've been doing it forever and it doesn't work

Biden overwhelmingly won the primary without like a single person doing that on his behalf, so let's just see how it goes. Nominating this man in the year 2020 was the most YOLO move we ever could have made so may as well just go with it. Save yourselves the time and effort and stop getting mad at people.
I'm pretty sure Crystal lady or Bloomberg would have been the most YOLO move to be honest.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,335
I imagine if you want to live alone and live in San Francisco yeah. But I have friends who make 80k, live in outer SF with roommates, and still have extra money to trade on Robinhood. I feel like a lot of the histrionics about how everyone is on the edge of poverty unless they make six figures in SF is overblown and doesn't help actually address the issues at hand.
There's a difference between not being on the edge of poverty and being well-off.

Someone making $100k in San Francisco isn't low-income, but they are by no means well-off. People see $100k salary and think you're living large and that you couldn't possibly relate to someone living on a median income (which is $75k for individuals in San Francisco, by the way), when in reality that person is one emergency away from being in a tight spot.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,181
There's a difference between not being on the edge of poverty and being well-off.

Someone making $100k in San Francisco isn't low-income, but they are by no means well-off. People see $100k salary and think you're living large and that you couldn't possibly relate to someone living on a median income (which is $75k for individuals in San Francisco, by the way), when in reality that person is one emergency away from being in a tight spot.
I agree there. There's some minutiae like a lot of tech workers having free food/transportation and other benefits that reduce the COL as well. My real main annoyance with the internet is people acting like people aren't at least living decently good making $6k a month after taxes. I live here and see it everyday!

If they weren't, there'd be a push to make tech companies pay even more to new graduates.
 

GYODX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,335
Here's how I categorize different stages of financial health: struggling, getting by, comfortable, well-off, rich, ultra-rich.

Without attaching a specific number to each category, I'd say that the biggest differentiator between one category and the next is your disposable income: net income - necessary expenses (rent, food, utilities, transportation, debt).

When you're struggling, your net income can barely keep up with your necessary expenses, and so you have zero or even negative disposable income. You might have to juggle between which bills to pay, or have to go into debt to keep up with your expenses. When you're getting by, your net income is somewhat bigger than your necessary expenses; you're able to save up for certain luxuries, but it will probably take you a while. And any unforeseen expenses take you back to square one.

When you have enough disposable income left over that you can regularly afford to treat yourself to some luxuries, maybe afford a vacation once a year, and put some money away toward retirement, then you're comfortable. When you have enough disposable income to fully fund your retirement, can afford most luxuries attainable to regular people (so no Lamborghinis), can afford to go on 2 or 3 vacations a year, and still have some money left over, then you're well-off.

I'd say that someone making $100k in San Francisco is probably just comfortable. Their net income is certainly much lower than $100k when you take taxes into account, and their necessary expenses are all much higher than the national average.
 
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OfficerRob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,196
How the hell is Biden "YOLO"? Get away from Rose twitter and RoseEra and he's very popular. Good lord, damn near everyone else in the field was more YOLO. Biden's appeal is that people know him, like him, and think he will return normalcy, how exactly is that YOLO?
 
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TheHunter

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
How the hell is Biden "YOLO"? Get away from Rose twitter and RoseEra and he's very popular. Good lord, damn near everyone else in the field was more YOLO. Biden's appeal is that people know him, like him, and think he will return normalcy, how exactly is that YOLO?
He's more of a YAWN than YOLO.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,713
Well, the flare up from Biden's "you ain't black" comment didn't even last a day. I'm actually surprised it's not at least dominating the weekend, but then again, the U.S. is reaching the 100,000 covid-19 dead milestone and Trump went golfing. It just reminded people that Biden's gaffes are minor compared to the status quo.

By the way, that FiveThirtyEight article about why Biden will likely be a more progressive president that thought, is really good. Also backs up a lot of what I've been reading on Biden's career. In that way, he does seem more like LBJ than FDR though, on how he cares more about being in the middle of wherever the party is headed than having a strict ideology. His ideology is literally Generic Dem, which is why he's been polling so well.
 

Erpy

Member
May 31, 2018
3,006
The big difference is that you always worked through the party, and you'd go in for Stephanie Herseth as hard as you would a 'progressive' candidate. You'd have voices like David Sirota(!) attacking Republicans and rallying around beating down whatever Bush-related crap was going down.

Now party progressives get to live in this online hellscape of trying to win elections while getting trashed from the left by former allies' who replace engagement and cooperation as a means of gaining leverage with performative outrage.

So basically like the Tea Party for the GOP back in 2010? With the not insignificant difference that since the Democratic voting base is so much more diverse, the firebreathers on the left don't really have the same electoral clout that allowed the Tea Party to give more moderate party members the alleyoop.

Well, the flare up from Biden's "you ain't black" comment didn't even last a day. I'm actually surprised it's not at least dominating the weekend, but then again, the U.S. is reaching the 100,000 covid-19 dead milestone and Trump went golfing. It just reminded people that Biden's gaffes are minor compared to the status quo.

By the way, that FiveThirtyEight article about why Biden will likely be a more progressive president that thought, is really good. Also backs up a lot of what I've been reading on Biden's career. In that way, he does seem more like LBJ than FDR though, on how he cares more about being in the middle of wherever the party is headed than having a strict ideology. His ideology is literally Generic Dem, which is why he's been polling so well.

Also, Biden's a gaffe machine who's been running his mouth for decades on end, to the point where the one thing the average Joe on the street knows about him, aside from him being Obama's VP, is that he frequently sticks his foot in his mouth. At this point it's baked into his image. Can you honestly remember any of Biden's gaffe's whose fallout lasted longer than a day?
 

Juice

Member
Dec 28, 2017
555
Also, Biden's a gaffe machine who's been running his mouth for decades on end, to the point where the one thing the average Joe on the street knows about him, aside from him being Obama's VP, is that he frequently sticks his foot in his mouth. At this point it's baked into his image. Can you honestly remember any of Biden's gaffe's whose fallout lasted longer than a day?

Indeed. I think Biden's reputation for making a fool of himself is a HUGE asset. 2016 was a battle of "Teflon Don", whose reputation allowed him to get by even though he literally couldn't string complete sentences together vs Hillary Clinton, who was so fraught in how careful and calculated she was that the slightest misstep would be a six day news story. Stuff didn't stick to Trump because his reputation explained it so it wasn't noteworthy. Biden benefits from a similar low expectations bias
 

Erpy

Member
May 31, 2018
3,006
Indeed. I think Biden's reputation for making a fool of himself is a HUGE asset. 2016 was a battle of "Teflon Don", whose reputation allowed him to get by even though he literally couldn't string complete sentences together vs Hillary Clinton, who was so fraught in how careful and calculated she was that the slightest misstep would be a six day news story. Stuff didn't stick to Trump because his reputation explained it so it wasn't noteworthy. Biden benefits from a similar low expectations bias

Clinton was in a no-win situation. Any slip-up would result in a week-long fussilade of bad press, but her careful and calculated demeanor made people feel she was insincere and inauthentic which was also held against her. Meanwhile, Joe has a similar coat of teflon Trump has and the fact that his campaign is currently flinging shit at the wall to see what sticks shows he has no clear plan on how to deal with this.
 

schuelma

Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,901
Indeed. I think Biden's reputation for making a fool of himself is a HUGE asset. 2016 was a battle of "Teflon Don", whose reputation allowed him to get by even though he literally couldn't string complete sentences together vs Hillary Clinton, who was so fraught in how careful and calculated she was that the slightest misstep would be a six day news story. Stuff didn't stick to Trump because his reputation explained it so it wasn't noteworthy. Biden benefits from a similar low expectations bias

yup. And this is why the "Biden is senile" attack is going to most likely backfire spectacularly -Trump has lowered the bar so low that Biden is practically guaranteed to exceed expectations at a debate or other major speeches. (not to mention of course, its incredibly insulting to seniors who are already shifting towards Biden).
 

CloverNotes

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,690
By the way, that FiveThirtyEight article about why Biden will likely be a more progressive president that thought, is really good. Also backs up a lot of what I've been reading on Biden's career. In that way, he does seem more like LBJ than FDR though, on how he cares more about being in the middle of wherever the party is headed than having a strict ideology. His ideology is literally Generic Dem, which is why he's been polling so well.
What was the name of the article? Sounds like an interesting read. I need more optimistic perspectives about Biden being a progressive president.
 

jiggle

Member
Dec 23, 2017
4,581
Oct 25, 2017
4,763

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,754
I honestly kinda shocked we have a president pushing a story like that. I know he's basically a comments section come to life, but Jesus. He has no boundaries at all.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,949
I'm glad Biden apologised. We need more accountability in government.
 

SwordsmanofS

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,451
Putting Biden's lead into context:



Man, I had no idea just how tenuous Clinton's lead was (a lot of times, she didn't lead at all). In 2016, polling showed a tight race but everyone assumed she would win big. Now it's the opposite; Biden is doing much better than she ever did, but no one wants to really acknowledge that fact.

2016 was a year where Democrats choose to ignore what was right in front of them. 2020 seems to be the Republicans turn.
 

Juice

Member
Dec 28, 2017
555
Putting Biden's lead into context:



Man, I had no idea just how tenuous Clinton's lead was (a lot of times, she didn't lead at all). In 2016, polling showed a tight race but everyone assumed she would win big. Now it's the opposite; Biden is doing much better than she ever did, but no one wants to really acknowledge that fact.

2016 was a year where Democrats choose to ignore what was right in front of them. 2020 seems to be the Republicans turn.


This is some pretty pure, uncut hopium right here.

Important to balance the optimism that polling and 2018 gives us with a recognition that this might be the least stable, safe, and reliable election in modern US history. There are completely believable scenarios where urban centers in Wisconsin don't have polling places or where Georgia passes a law to choose its slate of electors in the legislature or Florida just cancels the election.
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,537
Well, the flare up from Biden's "you ain't black" comment didn't even last a day. I'm actually surprised it's not at least dominating the weekend, but then again, the U.S. is reaching the 100,000 covid-19 dead milestone and Trump went golfing. It just reminded people that Biden's gaffes are minor compared to the status quo.

By the way, that FiveThirtyEight article about why Biden will likely be a more progressive president that thought, is really good. Also backs up a lot of what I've been reading on Biden's career. In that way, he does seem more like LBJ than FDR though, on how he cares more about being in the middle of wherever the party is headed than having a strict ideology. His ideology is literally Generic Dem, which is why he's been polling so well.

It's because it was stupid and tone deaf, but is only a crude way of intimating that Democrats have virtually all of the black vote. The way he said it makes clear he was trying to land a joke. And he apologized immediately. Also doesn't hurt that his core voters already think that way, anyway.

I knew as soon as he said it only DemSoc folks and "Democratic plantation" conservative types would care.
 

TheRuralJuror

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,537
This isn't a critique of Biden, but the guy most likely feels the same way he felt before that comment. And if I'm being honest, personally I don't really care as I've seen some form of that sentiment for most of my life amongst family and peers. Personally, I'm glad he apologized, but at this point, trumps a fucking monster and the whole song and dance from people who clearly weren't voting Biden who want to get pissy and repeat the same few things about whatever silly thing he's done that week has just gotten old. Can't really take anyone who thought that would stick seriously. In general, it seems like an enormous waste of everyone's time for a token apology. I think too many posters here are weirdly bogged down in conservative reaction to everything.


Putting Biden's lead into context:



Man, I had no idea just how tenuous Clinton's lead was (a lot of times, she didn't lead at all). In 2016, polling showed a tight race but everyone assumed she would win big. Now it's the opposite; Biden is doing much better than she ever did, but no one wants to really acknowledge that fact.

2016 was a year where Democrats choose to ignore what was right in front of them. 2020 seems to be the Republicans turn.


I hear you fully. Probably for the best. Better everyone stay in their toes this go round.
 
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Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
Putting Biden's lead into context:



Man, I had no idea just how tenuous Clinton's lead was (a lot of times, she didn't lead at all). In 2016, polling showed a tight race but everyone assumed she would win big. Now it's the opposite; Biden is doing much better than she ever did, but no one wants to really acknowledge that fact.

2016 was a year where Democrats choose to ignore what was right in front of them. 2020 seems to be the Republicans turn.

We all liked to think it wasn't possible, and Hillary's lead improved markedly once the debates came around... and then Comey's letter destroyed her.
 

Zache

Unshakable Resolve
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,863
If Biden wins, it will be one of the most predictable and obvious presidential election wins in decades. I expect plenty of cold takes in '21/'22 about the from some of the same chicken littles pretending(wishcasting?) Trump is guaranteed to win. I mean, I'm wary too but because of GOP election fuckery, not because I think Trump is unbeatable and immune to what a terrible economy can do to an incumbent's chances.
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
If Biden wins, it will be one of the most predictable and obvious presidential election wins in decades. I expect plenty of cold takes in '21/'22 about the from some of the same chicken littles pretending(wishcasting?) Trump is guaranteed to win. I mean, I'm wary too but because of GOP election fuckery, not because I think Trump is unbeatable and immune to what a terrible economy can do to an incumbent's chances.
Yeah, but Trump's surprise election has sorta flipped everyone into thinking he's inevitably going to squeak a win even with all evidence pointing to the contrary.

A majority thinks he'll win the election yet he's handily losing in H2H polling. Which is great, since people are terrified, and angry.
 

Richiek

Member
Nov 2, 2017
12,063
Clinton was in a no-win situation. Any slip-up would result in a week-long fussilade of bad press, but her careful and calculated demeanor made people feel she was insincere and inauthentic which was also held against her. Meanwhile, Joe has a similar coat of teflon Trump has and the fact that his campaign is currently flinging shit at the wall to see what sticks shows he has no clear plan on how to deal with this.

Sadly, America is still too sexist to elect a woman president.
 

JohnsonUT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,032
We all liked to think it wasn't possible, and Hillary's lead improved markedly once the debates came around... and then Comey's letter destroyed her.
I think we also took Michigan and Pennsylvania for granted and assumed Trump's path to victory was slimmer than it actually was.
 
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