You think so? Tyson's heyday as a boxer was a long time ago, Kobe is a much more modern figure.
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Vice: Reporters and Activists Are Being Harassed for Saying Kobe Bryant Was Credibly Accused of Rape (Read Staff Posts)
- Thread starter Syriel
- Start date
You think so? Tyson's heyday as a boxer was a long time ago, Kobe is a much more modern figure.
Once again, Tyson was CONVICTED and WENT TO PRISON. That's the big difference. One was actually punished for his crimes, while the other got off scott free save for a cash settlement that was literally pocket change compared to his total net worth.
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No one, including the journalists in the OP or the Twitter posts I quoted, was using the destruction of families to talk about Bryant's past.
What has prompted the discussion is his lionization as a hero, with no mention of the rape, its impact on the victim, or his lack of accountability for it. In the original reporting back in the day it was said that there were other victims that did not come forward after they saw how Bryant and his legal team treated his victim in court.
Had he died without the massive focus on how he was a hero, I doubt you would have seen people pointing out that he was never held to account.
And all of that is specifically focused on Bryant. None of that has anything to do with his daughter or the other victims of the crash. His fame is overshadowing all of it, which isn't fair to the other crash victims, but also isn't fair to victims of sexual assault for whom the hero worship is just another reminder of rape culture.
you are the hypocrite here, downplaying the rape makes you look pathetic and sad instead of anyone here.
It's very difficult to get banned from a pro sport.
If he had a positive effect on your life then do whatever you want to remember him. It's not like you're ignoring or trying to deny the bad things.
I think this is new territory tho. I've never seen two "separate but equal" obituary threads before. One about Kobe the legend, the basketball icon and family who's inspired millions of people and one about Kobe the rapist, who got away with a heinous crime and we should all feel shame for it.
of course life isn't like Mass Effect, there aren't enough Paragon or Renegade points where we can objectively put somebody into Good or Bad tier. I think the fair thing to do would be to take the entirety of the man into view. Human beings are capable of great things; kindness, generosity, charity, loyalty, empathy, things to inspire to. They're also capable of awful, monsterous, terrible things, things that hurt and injure and leave scars that last a lifetime. I think Kobe Bryant has done both and plenty of things in between. If would could break out this binary thinking, and stop telling other people how to feel when a tragedy happens, it probably be healthier for everybody.
or we can just keep yelling at each other until the next sad thing happens.
I work in criminal defence. Not only is victimizing the complainant by making insinuations that are generally explicitly barred by statute not "defend[ing] their clients within the bounds of the law" since the law says that these inferences are prohibited (or something similar), it wouldn't be ethical even if it was since it is literally encouraging the jury to fasely acquit the accused on the basis of irrelevant facts. A criminal defence lawyer's obligation to their client is not sacrosanct and larger concerns occasionally take hold, especially when we are being asked to assess whether something is unethical.
Besides, I'm not so much calling into question the ethics of the lawyers but the ethics of the admitted rapist they defended who permitted them to use a defensive strategy that would further victimize the accused in order to motivate a jury to fasely acquit him. If this was really about a simple mistaken belief in consent there was literally no reason for the victim's credibility to be called into question.
Someone can be considered a hero and still be flawed as hell. You dont need to be perfect to inspire someone. It's perfectly reasonable to focus on Kobe Bryant as a mentor or an inspiration to others while also acknowledging the allegations and all of the other baggage that he brings with him.
Because like it or not despite his past Kobe Bryant is widely considered one of the most inspiring and influential people in professional sports due to his dominance, his work ethic, and his contributions to the game itself.
Weinstien could get convicted he still ain't got a career in media anymore.
Tyson convicted or not the concensus I find is people don't believe he did it. His post prison boxing career continued as normal and his post boxing career has been good and his conviction is a side note at best.
Two women have been doxxed over well-established reporting on a recently deceased man. One has had to flee her home. Would be nice to discuss the relentless toxicity wrought by people who have spent any amount of lifetime confusing the dollars they spend with building a proper identity and the ease with which they can reach (predominantly women) victims at the slightest perceived slight. Coming in here to wax moralism about other victims they probably can't name without googling while completely trampling the substance and meaning of the actual words in the actual OP is a thunderously short-sighted perspective and it's hard to know if I should expect better from this forum's membership. Just another day with rape culture I guess.
More broadly than this one case, there's I think a problem with people acting like they know celebrities. Ultimately we don't have any real clue who the "real" Kobe was, certainly compared to those who actually knew him. So I can appreciate the people in this thread who are asking the question of "how much does he have to do to be forgiven," because that is a tricky question and is often encompassing two questions—the personal decision, and what we expect from the wider culture and the state.
With that said, I can't really fault people who look at a guy who was dating a minor, raped a woman and cheated on his spouse and based on the available facts find it hard to say "family man" with a straight face. He might have grown up, but I think most people agree to the general principle that you don't get to overwrite the less desirable parts of yourself and say you're totally different.
Overall, I think ultimately it's totally reasonable for people to say they think Bryant ultimately paid for his crimes, but you can't use your personal choice as the standard to hold other people to. It's understandable sexual assault victims might have a tad different view of a guy paying a few million and going on to have a storied moneymaking career after it as not exactly meeting the threshold of penance.
I really hope she gets her job back. It's ridiculous that is the grounds for dismissal in a field currently populated by truth-distorting fabulists that do real harm to people.
I'm just gonna say this:
To what lengths must one go through to redeem themselves? You can't undo the past. So again, it begs the question... What must one do to repent for past transgressions and to totally move forward?
I feel like a significant portion of ERA in general will never be satisfied. It's not the first time I've said this. I'm not talking about Kobe Bryant, but in any and all situations where you have an individual who has committed some kind of crime or unfavorable act. No matter what that person does, no matter the efforts they put forth in order to change, be a better person and be a positive influence, it's still not enough.
Some of you just choose to never forgive. Even when matters are settled in the court of law, even when all debts and dues, whether they be legal, financial or even emotional, are fully paid, it still isn't enough. Some of you have a sense of vengeance that is truly unshakable, especially against those who don't have any direct influence or effect on your lives, or, in this case, a man with absolutely zero means to defend himself.
It's something I'll never understand. You don't have to forget. But in respect to everyone's peace and your own sanity, let it go. It's okay to pass judgement, but at some point, you must allow a chance at redemption.
That's all I will say.
To what lengths must one go through to redeem themselves? You can't undo the past. So again, it begs the question... What must one do to repent for past transgressions and to totally move forward?
I feel like a significant portion of ERA in general will never be satisfied. It's not the first time I've said this. I'm not talking about Kobe Bryant, but in any and all situations where you have an individual who has committed some kind of crime or unfavorable act. No matter what that person does, no matter the efforts they put forth in order to change, be a better person and be a positive influence, it's still not enough.
Some of you just choose to never forgive. Even when matters are settled in the court of law, even when all debts and dues, whether they be legal, financial or even emotional, are fully paid, it still isn't enough. Some of you have a sense of vengeance that is truly unshakable, especially against those who don't have any direct influence or effect on your lives, or, in this case, a man with absolutely zero means to defend himself.
It's something I'll never understand. You don't have to forget. But in respect to everyone's peace and your own sanity, let it go. It's okay to pass judgement, but at some point, you must allow a chance at redemption.
That's all I will say.
I think and hope this is just a matter of when the events occurred.
In Kobe's case, and other victims of sexual assault, we don't define what forgiveness means to them. It's not up to us. I think you should rethink this logic here, because you have some misleading parts (in the court of law, the Kobe case is complicated and I would suggest looking into it more to see all the events) and you also mischaracterize people. There are few people in this thread that want vengeance, just an accurate portrayal of a flawed man, who died horribly, along with his daughter and seven others in a helicopter crash. That's not vengeance, but truth. In the era we live in, where people don't trust the media, having people attacked for sharing the truth should be important to all of us, yourself included.
You can do great things, be an inspiration to people and really strive to become a better person and ultimately still be a rapist. Good doesn't erase bad. I find Kobe dying extremely tragic and I am sad about it but that doesn't change the fact that he raped this girl.
People who are fans of his impact on youth playing basketball and his inspiration to million dont have to feel bad that they have conflicted feelings on the mans legacy. People are complex. Emotions are complex. The worst shit people are doing is treating the issue with it's black and white. Few things in life are.
The dude is one of the prime examples of how fame influence and fortune can shield you from the consequences of your actions. And his case is probably the most notable of the modern era in regards to what rape victims face.
People who are fans of his impact on youth playing basketball and his inspiration to million dont have to feel bad that they have conflicted feelings on the mans legacy. People are complex. Emotions are complex. The worst shit people are doing is treating the issue with it's black and white. Few things in life are.
The dude is one of the prime examples of how fame influence and fortune can shield you from the consequences of your actions. And his case is probably the most notable of the modern era in regards to what rape victims face.
User banned (permanent): Ignoring the staff post, trolling about rape, sending hostile email to staff
I wonder if any of you would call Mike Tyson a rapist if you met him in person. I bet you wouldn't say shit.
I also wonder how many of you were concerned with Kobe being a rapist last Saturday night. Let the man rest.
I also wonder how many of you were concerned with Kobe being a rapist last Saturday night. Let the man rest.
Agreed but as I said even when Tyson got out his many trials and tribulations were way more newsworthy than his conviction. Maybe the times were different but Tyson to me was never portrayed as a rapist.
Fandom is a religion. Whenever you fuck with a religion, its followers go insane. We've seen it a million times at this point.
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No argument there. This is the point of bringing up the past. It is why reporters mention it. It is why victims mention it.
No one (well no one sane) is going to say that people cannot see the good he has done. But he should be seen as a whole, because ignoring the bad as of it never happened is a massive disservice to a lot of people.
Instead of the Zoe Implant, we have the internet, and instead of a Remembering, we have social media.
That quote from Sonmez referenced in the article (in the OP) is spot on.
That quote from Sonmez referenced in the article (in the OP) is spot on.
It is a very low bar to expect that a rapist unequivocally admit to the rape and face the consequences forthwith.
Kobe did not meet this low bar. He gaslit his accuser as a means of avoiding a criminal conviction and refused to describe his own conduct as rape even in his "apology".
You have framed him as a man who faced the music. In reality, he's a man who beat the charges.
I wonder if you would be brave enough to say this to the face of victims of sexual assault whose attackers never faced justice.
Kind of feels like you're talking about Kobe by posting this in a thread about Kobe.
In a situation where the woman was effectively harassed and bullied into a settlement, I'm not sure you can say all debts and dues were paid. I have no interest in anybody saying Kobe redeemed himself except for the victim.
No one can answer this question dude.
For some, some things are never redeemable. For others, it is about the life you live after and if you have really shown change from the transgression you committed. Like there is nothing to say in regards to your statement because it feels more like you just want there to be a conditional eraser and life doesn't work like that.
I see. I mean they were obviously aggressive. If I'm looking at time from the state, I'm going to expect them to do whatever in their legal power to prevent that from happening. I'm going to expect them to force the prosecution to put forth the most perfect case they ever have in their lives and account for every scenario possible. Maybe his defense went too extreme, but if it was violating the law or clear ethics standards, I'm sure that would have been an easy complaint to the Colorado Bar.
As a criminal defense attorney, you also know too many people are goaded into taking pleas they should be fighting because hey lack resources or the right skin color, so I'd think it was always going to be especially hard to get someone with resources to admit criminal liability or play nice if they don't need to.
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Yes I expect in your example that most of us would be concerned about being lit up by a former professional boxer. That doesn't make him not a rapist.
Speaking of rapists, Kobe can't hear me now. I'm "letting him rest" just fine.
His ability to hit someone doesn't make him any less of a rapist, what are you smoking?
What the fuck is this shit even supposed to mean?
Amazingly, a lot of women are afraid to call their rapists out because of the fear of violence. Do you find that something to gloat about too?
I've seen some weird arguments in this thread so far but this one takes the cake...
Well I haven't seen many outlets outright ignoring the bad. Even the special video that ESPN made to honor his legacy mentioned the allegations and the circus that surrounded them and how it followed him the rest of his career.
But I can understand why it's not being focused on. It seems a bit inappropriate to add "oh and let's not forget about the rape allegations against him" in the same sentence as when you are talking about the deaths of children and others or all the good he has done on and off the court. I know "time and place" is becoming a bad word basically at this point, but it's really the only way to describe it in my opinion. But I don't begrudge anyone who feels that it's important to bring it up as long as it's done appropriately.
You can't dictate when individuals have to forgive someone, and you certainly can't tell rape victims how they're allowed to feel about a rapist.
This is the dumbest argument you can possibly make.
And for the record, both of them are rapists and it concerned me plenty for a lot longer than that.
User Banned (1 Month): Ignoring the Staff Post, Whataboutism
Yet you will find the same exact people on this site cry about prison rehabilitation and giving a "second chance". None of these fucks give two shits about anything other than getting woke points.
Redemption is earned, not given. And it starts with paying justice to your original transgression.
I don't really know what to say here except that emotions are running high. A person just died and there are people who only view him one way, while others view him another way. This seems totally normal to me given how famous he was. My 8 year old students, who weren't cognizant of his legendary status were talking about his death in the hallway today. One boy in my class started crying for 10 straight minutes.
I understand and accept the viewpoint that you shouldn't herald the dead simply because they died. After all, we all die.
If Kobe Bryant sexually assaulted someone, he is not off the hook because he was famous, or because he died. We need to talk about that.
My opinion I guess is that we should allow people a reasonable "cooling off" period. We're not bad people, even though we sometimes root for them.
I understand and accept the viewpoint that you shouldn't herald the dead simply because they died. After all, we all die.
If Kobe Bryant sexually assaulted someone, he is not off the hook because he was famous, or because he died. We need to talk about that.
My opinion I guess is that we should allow people a reasonable "cooling off" period. We're not bad people, even though we sometimes root for them.
I'm not going to get into this because it's incredibly complex, but the ethics of defence lawyering is never cut and dry, especially in sexual assault trials. Nevertheless, it's irrelevant, because my point is that Kobe's actions were unethical too. If you rape someone and then lie about it to your lawyers who then go around and burn the victim to cinders, you've behaved profoundly unethically. Probably the lawyers did too, but that's irrelevant to the question of the day.
Oh, I absolutely agree. We should allow the discussion. I simply think this criticism of the discourse is coming from a pointed place, as if there is a conspiracy to surpress the negatives to Kobe Bryant. People will of course disagree on that point, but there are several well considered posts in the main thread that reconcile his rape accusation within the context of his death.
Hew did zero work in the field of anti-rape culture.
He bought his way out of everything and just moved on.
Two women have been chased off social media, one from her home in cases that intensely parallel the experiences of Kobe Bryant's original accuser.
Their story is now being buried in shitass, low-effort drive-by hot takes like this. Good job being a loud and proud part of the problem.
I'm fine with people not forgiving or forgetting peoples past transgressions, it's their decision to make.
What I dislike immensely is people telling other people that because they chose to forgive they are a piece of shit for doing so. Like me making a personal decision automatically makes me a garbage human. That is the biggest issue I have with discussion on this forum.
I have to wonder, why it matters whether you or I forgive Kobe Bryant for raping someone else?
He never went to prison, though. So what the fuck point are you trying to make?
What? I literally said I don't care if people choose to forgive him. That's the first part of my post.
I don't like when people use their decision as a barometer for everyone they meet and if the decisions/views don't lineup they automatically vilify the other person.
This makes a lot of sense and I do believe with today's standard he would absolutely be convicted, and while he didn't back then laws did change because of some of the more archaic ways we have on the books on consent. So I understand peoples frustrations with this overall. Thank for the clarity on it. Especially when this kind of topic is very very charged and complicated from many perspectives.
Yes hello I'm an advocate for prison reform and also a person who thinks now is a fine time to highlight Kobe's status as a rapist.
These two viewpoints aren't conflicting. It has nothing to do with "woke points". I think Kobe should have gone to prison and that also the prison he should have gone to was reformed such that the sentence was reasonable and focused on ensuring that he received an education on consent and rape culture such that he would be expertly poised not to be a piece of shit in the future. Since that remains a pipe dream in the contemporary political climate, I will settle for him going to prison since that is the closest approximation that we can currently obtain to justice for rape victims in 2020.
Also, the insinuation that people who raise the issue of Kobe being a rapist are just competing for woke points is hot fucking garabge, but other posters have adequately addressed this issue so I won't reiterate the point.
Gross generalizations. Ignorant assumptions. False equivalencies and shaky analogies.
Oof. 3 strikes you're out.
User Banned (1 Month): Ignoring the Staff Post, Threadwhining in a Sensitive Topic
I wonder how people will feel when Kobe gets a statue outside the staples center? I mean people will be idolizing and memorializing an alleged rapist and do those same people feel the same about someone like for example Thomas Jefferson?