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VRR support rolling out for PS5 now. System level support as well as per title updates
- Thread starter ItsBradazHD
- Start date
RT + High frame rate if you can tolerate the performance drop. Otherwise RT off + high frame rate and enjoy the game in turbo mode which is not allowed with RT.
One thing that's worth mentioning is that there doesn't seem to be an actual certification program for the HDMI 2.1 VRR spec yet, which is what's delaying some other companies from rolling out VRR firmware updates as well (see this email from Yamaha support about why they came out with a 4K120 update and didn't include things like VRR / ALLM). With the amount of displays and devices out there, lacking a certification program can make things a crapshoot as far as compatibility, and Sony might simply not want to take that risk (hence the very conservative approach)
Having extensively researched all of this stuff, as you have as well, using this thread and that DF podcast have been info gold mines. I often find myself asking very similar questions. Am I getting the most out of this experience if X person say this but Y person says that. However at the end of the day, its about what looks best to you. Do you think using your Xbox at 120fps all the time looks bad? Have you seen any issues with clarity? You can do what I do, take a game you are super familiar with and start messing with settings. You can't do anything that can't be undone. See if you notice any perceptible drop in clarity in your chosen game. I use an OLED so I don't think I have ever experienced any negative visual side effects to always having 120FPS turned on. And I leave VRR on all the time as well, and yes, I do see the slight flicker during the occasional load screen, to me, thats a sign that VRR is on, 😄, since my C9 lacks the ability to easily show me that VRR is enabled like newer models do, that slight flicker gives me some piece of mind. Most of the time with these types of discussion, unless you can see something side by side, you may not notice the nitty gritty of what they are talking about. But it is nice to have that information so as to be informed about why something may look the way it does. At the end of the day, this is all about choosing what settings look right to you and what lets you get the most enjoyment out of your games. Not everyone wants melt your face HDR, not every wants VRR or even high frame rates, but more choices in how we choose to play games is generally a good thing. Accept when I spend the first day with a new game constantly toggling settings trying to figure out what looks and plays best to ME, thats usually when I turn to DF to see if they can point out anything I may or may not care about. One persons much evangelized feature is another person trash feature. DF has me trying to decide between upgrading my C9 to either a C1 or a C2 and the only sticking point is the implementation of BFI across the 2 sets. They are pretty different, but at the end of the day, having never used BFI, I don't even know why I am so hung up on something I have never been able to see the advantages of first hand (FYI, I am NOT knocking BFI, I know people love it and why, its just not a feature I have ever seen or used first hand). Also I try to play all my games in the highest possible frame rate (thats where I place my flag), but as John said in the DF podcast, VRR and BFI is, not good at the moment.
TL;DR, just use what ever settings look and play best to you, all of this is subjective.
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This might not be the case (see the tweet quoted in the previous page). Apparently that's the case only if you use BFI, which I know John from DF is a big fan of. I honestly don't know what to think myself.
That's true only if VRR isn't enabled which is the case with the Xbox but, you can't have VRR and BFI on at the same time on an LG OLED so any image blur or doubling can't be blamed on BFI if VRR is being used.
yeah BFI and VRR are not compatible. BFI is disabled when VRR turns on (or really, when ALLM mode turns on) on my CX
As it should be. ALLM's whole point is to turn off any post processing stuff that might add lag.
No, this is a decision Sony made and has nothing to do with the HDMI 2.1 VRR standard.
The video may give the impression that this is a restriction of the standard, but it is not.
XSX is using HDMI 2.1 VRR as well and doesn't have such limitation.
Unfortunately, I can't agree with him on this point if we're talking about a comparison between 60Hz and 120Hz (each without BFI).
Motion blur is a topic of its own, especially with OLEDs. I recommend starting here if you want to go down that rabbit hole.
And continue with posts like this one if you want to go further.
Imho, no. Unless your monitor has some specific issues with the 120Hz mode.
120Hz is bringing a lot to the table like lower input lag and LFC. Not to mention that you limit the framerate of a game to 60fps (for the few games that can go beyond 60fps) if you're using a 60Hz signal. Plus as mentioned above, motion blur doesn't improve with 60Hz.
And since the XSX supports a HDMI 2.1 bandwidth of 40Gbps, you can even use this mode @UHD without color subsampling.
Other than that the mentioned points, I have to say that the DF video is great. Not many YouTubers know what they're talking about when it comes to VRR.
There's a hidden debug menu which will show you all the info you need. Open the settings menu, select "Programmes", highlight "Programme Tuning & Settings" and press "1" five times. Press "right" to highlight the "HDMI" label and press "OK".
With TMDS you will see the effective refresh rate changing with VRR, with FRL (HDMI 2.1) the displayed vertical resolution changes if the framerate is not constant.
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To be honest, this is a pretty cheap excuse from some manufacturers.
The technical specification has long been final and could be implemented accordingly. Just because you can't stick a sticker on a product with an HDMI logo shouldn't prevent you from implementing a feature.
And unfortunately, it is also the case that no certification program will save us from issues when devices interact. The past has proven that many times.
I won't be replacing my 2016-era TV any time soon, but it's really exciting to think about how this can future-proof PS5 games. Unlocking framerates in quality mode opens the possibility of "quality mode" PS5 graphics running at 4K120 on a PS6/5 Pro.
A Demon's Souls patch would be nice.
A Demon's Souls patch would be nice.
Was there something wrong with Demon's Souls at 60fps, or do you just want an unlocked framerate option?
The forum don't have any cert programs outside of cable agaik.
The whole point is that the HdMi 2.1 standard is exactly that- a standard.
You design your hardware to work with the fixed specifications and it works. It's not a black box solution.
Performance Mode at 1440p (?) is perfect, but why not keep your options open? We know we'll eventually (later rather than sooner) get an iterative hardware upgrade, so this might be the first generation where it makes sense to have optional unlocked framerates as a standard.
You could have both enabled on the xbox if you use dolby vision gaming
The HDMI forum does have a Compliance Test Specification (CTS) that must be met if you have a product or component that claims to be compliant with the HDMI specification. See here. However, the documents relating to this are not available for the public.
I assume this is what Yamaha meant in the post Transistor mentioned.
But what about the performance and screen tearing, has that all been remedied?
According to new DF podcast, yes because the game also output in 120hz. LFC would work and keep the game in VRR mode at all times.
Yeah, I've been playing Elden Ring and you can feel it in the open world. But I've heard the more enclosed areas are better.
We also don't know what framerate the native 4K Quality Mode might run at if it was unlocked with a 120hz output. It might surprise us, and even get to 60fps on future consoles.
I just noticed I'm having this issue with Spiderman Remastered, when Ratchet and Clank and Miles Morales are fine.
In Spiderman when I switch to 120hz in the setting menu before actually entering the game about 75% of the time I either get a black screen (with audio), big blocks of green, or some other screen corruption.
This is with my PS5 connected directly to my C9.
Not sure what's going on, since the other two Insomniac games have so far given me no problems at all.
I don't expect most people to mind but when displaying 60 fps content in a 120hz container you do actually wind up with a slight double image effect - much like 30 fps within a 60hz container but with half the length of the double image. When combined with sample and hold displays, you won't see the double image effect as it blurs the frames together but the result is increased blur in motion. It's there whether using BFI or not - it's just that BFI clearly displays the double image effect due to elimination of persistence blur. I'm super super sensitive to these issues, however, in a way that perhaps most people are not so I can appreciate that it won't bother many others.
In my opinion Denon has two issues (at least on PS5, can't test Xbox Series in 60 Hz mode):
1. General issues with 60 Hz VRR when framerate is fluctuating (stable 60 FPS with VRR works without issues, also 120 Hz VRR works fine).
2. Sometimes handshake issues where you need to change the input of the Denon. This can also affect 120 Hz VRR mode where you need to deactivate Instant Game Response and activate it again. This is very similar to the general issue when HDR changes to SDR and the other way around where sometimes also are handshake issues and the connection is lost.
For me it's not a solution to connect the PS5 to the tv. I bought my Denon because I don't want to do that.
1. General issues with 60 Hz VRR when framerate is fluctuating (stable 60 FPS with VRR works without issues, also 120 Hz VRR works fine).
2. Sometimes handshake issues where you need to change the input of the Denon. This can also affect 120 Hz VRR mode where you need to deactivate Instant Game Response and activate it again. This is very similar to the general issue when HDR changes to SDR and the other way around where sometimes also are handshake issues and the connection is lost.
For me it's not a solution to connect the PS5 to the tv. I bought my Denon because I don't want to do that.
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Do they still do it? That's not been updated since I'm over 10 years
I have this issue too also on C9, I thought it migh be an Issue with the HDMI cable that came with the PS5 so I have ordered a new one. If you press the PS button and go to home then switch back it sould rectify itself but worrying still.
I don't quite understand how on a sample-and-hold display there should be any difference between a 60 Hz signal in a 120 Hz container and a 60 Hz signal in a 60 Hz container. Aren't the individual frames (from the 60 fps signal) displayed (and held) for exactly the same duration, thus resulting in exactly the same visual appearance? Does holding one frame for 16.6 ms look different from holding two exactly the same frames for 8.3 ms each on an OLED display without BFI?
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How high would the output and framerate need to go before it wasn't visible? Do you think you'd be able to see it on a 120fps game running in a 240hz container on PC?
I'd need to think about this but I can say for sure that there is a very noticeable difference. Trying playing a side scrolling game like Sonic Mania at 60 or 120hz and, at least for me, it becomes noticeably blurrier when displaying 60fps within a 120hz container. It's extremely evident to my eyes!
People have begged FromSoft to fix their framepacing issues for over a decade. They never have, and given Elden Ring's sales and reviews there's nothing pressing them to do it. Same with a Bloodborne update, and, I'm guessing, same with a VRR update.
Great to see you back on here, and great work on the video! Always appreciated!
They're doing it right now with HDMI2.1a:
(source, see also here and here)
This of course applies to certified cables, but also to any device that meets the HDMI specification (or rather advertises to do so).
However, I don't know what tests you have to meet to put the HDMI logo on an AVR, for example.
Learned a lot from your podcast segment about VRR. Do you like Xbox's approach or Sony's better? I know you had said that Xbox's approach has a lower floor for FPS limit and works on Xbox One games too, but it seemed like you all alluded that it is easier for PS5 games to receive a patch to recognize VRR and make specific modes for it (like Insomniac).
Seems like both have pros and cons?
Does VRR works in Returnal? Just the other day I've tried out but it doesn't work according to the CX VRR indicator?
I have this exact issue with the PS5 connected to my Denon lol
I certainly believe you see a difference. For sure also because you have trained yourself to see the differences (the curse of having seen it once).
But at the same time I'm pretty certain most people won't notice any motion blur difference between 60fps @60Hz and 60fps @120Hz.
For the effect you describe, I don't have a direct explanation. In theory, in both cases one frame is effectively visible for ~16.7ms.
Yes, with 120Hz there's a tiny gap between the two 8.3ms scanouts, but I don't think that's what you're seeing / describing.
What remains is the difference in the transition from one frame to the next. With 60Hz the transition obviously takes ~16ms while it takes only ~8ms with 120Hz.
My intuition would have been that this would lead to less motion blur. Maybe one of the Blur Busters experts has an explanation ...
That my thought at first, but I noticed there were some dips while fighting.
The game has a bunch of small stutters. I haven't played it in VRR though so I'm not sure if they're streaming related or something VRR would iron out. But it's not a locked 60.
Thank you, I am very much aware of this menu and how to interpret it, but as I stated it is not easy or convenient to summon for a quick glance and lacks a dedicated VRR indicator as the CX, C1 and C2 do.
I'm actually using one of those Zeskit high-speed 2.1 certified cables that Vincent recommended a while back (one the first actual certified 2.1 cables I believe), so it shouldn't be that.
I wonder if it has something to do with the base code of the game being originally for PS4. Would be nice to know whether Insomniac can find some way to duplicate and try and address the problem.
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