High frame rate on, Ray Tracing off. Smooth as butter.
High frame rate on, Ray Tracing off. Smooth as butter.
RT + High frame rate if you can tolerate the performance drop. Otherwise RT off + high frame rate and enjoy the game in turbo mode which is not allowed with RT.
One thing that's worth mentioning is that there doesn't seem to be an actual certification program for the HDMI 2.1 VRR spec yet, which is what's delaying some other companies from rolling out VRR firmware updates as well (see this email from Yamaha support about why they came out with a 4K120 update and didn't include things like VRR / ALLM). With the amount of displays and devices out there, lacking a certification program can make things a crapshoot as far as compatibility, and Sony might simply not want to take that risk (hence the very conservative approach)-PS5 VRR implementation is based on HDMI 2.1 specification that when in 60hrz, the range should be 48-60hrz output. (3:18) So is that why Sony's implementation of VRR has the 48hrz minimum? Not because of their TV, but because they are sticklers to specifications of HDMI 2.1? And if so, should we ask them to throw that out the window? So I heard some people say, they should implement what series X is doing which is to make it constant 120hrz, which leads me to the next point DF pointed out...
Having extensively researched all of this stuff, as you have as well, using this thread and that DF podcast have been info gold mines. I often find myself asking very similar questions. Am I getting the most out of this experience if X person say this but Y person says that. However at the end of the day, its about what looks best to you. Do you think using your Xbox at 120fps all the time looks bad? Have you seen any issues with clarity? You can do what I do, take a game you are super familiar with and start messing with settings. You can't do anything that can't be undone. See if you notice any perceptible drop in clarity in your chosen game. I use an OLED so I don't think I have ever experienced any negative visual side effects to always having 120FPS turned on. And I leave VRR on all the time as well, and yes, I do see the slight flicker during the occasional load screen, to me, thats a sign that VRR is on, 😄, since my C9 lacks the ability to easily show me that VRR is enabled like newer models do, that slight flicker gives me some piece of mind. Most of the time with these types of discussion, unless you can see something side by side, you may not notice the nitty gritty of what they are talking about. But it is nice to have that information so as to be informed about why something may look the way it does. At the end of the day, this is all about choosing what settings look right to you and what lets you get the most enjoyment out of your games. Not everyone wants melt your face HDR, not every wants VRR or even high frame rates, but more choices in how we choose to play games is generally a good thing. Accept when I spend the first day with a new game constantly toggling settings trying to figure out what looks and plays best to ME, thats usually when I turn to DF to see if they can point out anything I may or may not care about. One persons much evangelized feature is another person trash feature. DF has me trying to decide between upgrading my C9 to either a C1 or a C2 and the only sticking point is the implementation of BFI across the 2 sets. They are pretty different, but at the end of the day, having never used BFI, I don't even know why I am so hung up on something I have never been able to see the advantages of first hand (FYI, I am NOT knocking BFI, I know people love it and why, its just not a feature I have ever seen or used first hand). Also I try to play all my games in the highest possible frame rate (thats where I place my flag), but as John said in the DF podcast, VRR and BFI is, not good at the moment.Well, I thought I knew enough about VRR to not be surprised anymore.
But I learned a few things in that video. And now I am more conflicted.
I have both the PS5 and series X and I have VRR turned on for both.
But according to the DF discussion:
-PS5 VRR implementation is based on HDMI 2.1 specification that when in 60hrz, the range should be 48-60hrz output. (3:18) So is that why Sony's implementation of VRR has the 48hrz minimum? Not because of their TV, but because they are sticklers to specifications of HDMI 2.1? And if so, should we ask them to throw that out the window? So I heard some people say, they should implement what series X is doing which is to make it constant 120hrz, which leads me to the next point DF pointed out...
-120hrz all the time on series X is not always the best way to go because of "persistence blur"? (5:31). I currently have my series X at 120hrz all the time, should I go back to 60hrz, and only bring it up to 120hrz when a game "really" needs it like DF is suggesting?
I feel I am more conflicted on VRR after watching the video, lol.
-120hrz all the time on series X is not always the best way to go because of "persistence blur"? (5:31). I currently have my series X at 120hrz all the time, should I go back to 60hrz, and only bring it up to 120hrz when a game "really" needs it like DF is suggesting?
That's true only if VRR isn't enabled which is the case with the Xbox but, you can't have VRR and BFI on at the same time on an LG OLED so any image blur or doubling can't be blamed on BFI if VRR is being used.This might not be the case (see the tweet quoted in the previous page). Apparently that's the case only if you use BFI, which I know John from DF is a big fan of. I honestly don't know what to think myself.
Thanks! I will test RT mode.RT + High frame rate if you can tolerate the performance drop. Otherwise RT off + high frame rate and enjoy the game in turbo mode which is not allowed with RT.
As it should be. ALLM's whole point is to turn off any post processing stuff that might add lag.yeah BFI and VRR are not compatible. BFI is disabled when VRR turns on (or really, when ALLM mode turns on) on my CX
No, this is a decision Sony made and has nothing to do with the HDMI 2.1 VRR standard.So is that why Sony's implementation of VRR has the 48hrz minimum?
Unfortunately, I can't agree with him on this point if we're talking about a comparison between 60Hz and 120Hz (each without BFI).-120hrz all the time on series X is not always the best way to go because of "persistence blur"?
Imho, no. Unless your monitor has some specific issues with the 120Hz mode.I currently have my series X at 120hrz all the time, should I go back to 60hrz, and only bring it up to 120hrz when a game "really" needs it like DF is suggesting?
There's a hidden debug menu which will show you all the info you need. Open the settings menu, select "Programmes", highlight "Programme Tuning & Settings" and press "1" five times. Press "right" to highlight the "HDMI" label and press "OK".since my C9 lacks the ability to easily show me that VRR is enabled like newer models do
To be honest, this is a pretty cheap excuse from some manufacturers.One thing that's worth mentioning is that there doesn't seem to be an actual certification program for the HDMI 2.1 VRR spec yet, which is what's delaying some other companies from rolling out VRR firmware updates as well [...]
That does help. Thanks for the reply! 🙏I'll try and break it down and keep it simple. Basically, for what you want for a smooth framerate is for the amount of frames being displayed every second to stay on screen for the same amount of time. That's why 30 and 60 FPS are the standard as at 60FOS there's 60 unique frames displayed every second, and at 30FPS each frame is displayed twice which is still nice and even.
40FPS on a 60Hz display wouldn't appear smooth as 60 doesn't divide evenly by 40. But in a 120hz display 40FPS would mean each frame is displayed 4 times every second and would give make for a smoothly displayed framerate.
So 40FPS really has nothing to do with VRR and will look smooth in any console and display at 120hz.
VRR removes the barrier of having to lock a screen to a certain refresh rate and means that you can display anywhere from (on PS5) 48-120 frames per second evenly.
What VRR on PS5 does in 40FPS mode is it removes the hard lock so the framerate can potentially fluctuate higher than 40FPS. So, for example, if a game was on average running at 50FPS that would look terrible on a 60Hz screen and devs would most likely choose to lock that framerate to 30FPS. But now with VRR devs can leave the game uncapped and running at an average of 50FPS and that will still appear smooth.
Hope that helps.
I won't be replacing my 2016-era TV any time soon, but it's really exciting to think about how this can future-proof PS5 games. Unlocking framerates in quality mode opens the possibility of "quality mode" PS5 graphics running at 4K120 on a PS6/5 Pro.
A Demon's Souls patch would be nice.
The forum don't have any cert programs outside of cable agaik.To be honest, this is a pretty cheap excuse from some manufacturers.
The technical specification has long been final and could be implemented accordingly. Just because you can't stick a sticker on a product with an HDMI logo shouldn't prevent you from implementing a feature.
And unfortunately, it is also the case that no certification program will save us from issues when devices interact. The past has proven that many times.
Was there something wrong with Demon's Souls at 60fps, or do you just want an unlocked framerate option?
You could have both enabled on the xbox if you use dolby vision gamingThat's true only if VRR isn't enabled which is the case with the Xbox but, you can't have VRR and BFI on at the same time on an LG OLED so any image blur or doubling can't be blamed on BFI if VRR is being used.
The HDMI forum does have a Compliance Test Specification (CTS) that must be met if you have a product or component that claims to be compliant with the HDMI specification. See here. However, the documents relating to this are not available for the public.The forum don't have any cert programs outside of cable agaik.
The whole point is that the HdMi 2.1 standard is exactly that- a standard.
You design your hardware to work with the fixed specifications and it works. It's not a black box solution.
After the patch of today, Ghostwire Tokyo is recognized as a VRR supported game by the PS5.
Didn't notice any change regarding graphic modes so far.
According to new DF podcast, yes because the game also output in 120hz. LFC would work and keep the game in VRR mode at all times.But what about the performance and screen tearing, has that all been remedied?
That's right but it's actually just frame doubling within the 120hz container. That's it. They're working around the 48hz floor using this method. This is the software overcoming a limitation.
PS5 has a hard floor of 48hz currently. Any game dipping below 48 will exhibit judder immediately. I can see this plain as day - it's extremely obvious that under 48hz is not covered by VRR
Performance Mode at 1440p (?) is perfect, but why not keep your options open? We know we'll eventually (later rather than sooner) get an iterative hardware upgrade, so this might be the first generation where it makes sense to have optional unlocked framerates as a standard.
Especially for Spider Man in your video: In the main menu it seems to have unstable framerate. In the game the framerate stabilizes (or it goes to 120 Hz).
And after that the game seems to be in 120 Hz mode and not before? In my observations 120 Hz with VRR just works fine (it's also working in your video).
Could you open the HDMI General Info window before you boot up the game to see when the game changes to 120 Hz?
I don't expect most people to mind but when displaying 60 fps content in a 120hz container you do actually wind up with a slight double image effect - much like 30 fps within a 60hz container but with half the length of the double image. When combined with sample and hold displays, you won't see the double image effect as it blurs the frames together but the result is increased blur in motion. It's there whether using BFI or not - it's just that BFI clearly displays the double image effect due to elimination of persistence blur. I'm super super sensitive to these issues, however, in a way that perhaps most people are not so I can appreciate that it won't bother many others.Unfortunately, I can't agree with him on this point if we're talking about a comparison between 60Hz and 120Hz (each without BFI).
Motion blur is a topic of its own, especially with OLEDs. I recommend starting here if you want to go down that rabbit hole.
And continue with posts like this one if you want to go further.
Do they still do it? That's not been updated since I'm over 10 yearsThe HDMI forum does have a Compliance Test Specification (CTS) that must be met if you have a product or component that claims to be compliant with the HDMI specification. See here. However, the documents relating to this are not available for the public.
I assume this is what Yamaha meant in the post Transistor mentioned.
I also have the same issue, lolI just noticed I'm having this issue with Spiderman Remastered, when Ratchet and Clank and Miles Morales are fine.
In Spiderman when I switch to 120hz in the setting menu before actually entering the game about 75% of the time I either get a black screen (with audio), big blocks of green, or some other screen corruption.
This is with my PS5 connected directly to my C9.
Not sure what's going on, since the other two Insomniac games have so far given me no problems at all.
I have this issue too also on C9, I thought it migh be an Issue with the HDMI cable that came with the PS5 so I have ordered a new one. If you press the PS button and go to home then switch back it sould rectify itself but worrying still.I just noticed I'm having this issue with Spiderman Remastered, when Ratchet and Clank and Miles Morales are fine.
In Spiderman when I switch to 120hz in the setting menu before actually entering the game about 75% of the time I either get a black screen (with audio), big blocks of green, or some other screen corruption.
This is with my PS5 connected directly to my C9.
Not sure what's going on, since the other two Insomniac games have so far given me no problems at all.
I don't quite understand how on a sample-and-hold display there should be any difference between a 60 Hz signal in a 120 Hz container and a 60 Hz signal in a 60 Hz container. Aren't the individual frames (from the 60 fps signal) displayed (and held) for exactly the same duration, thus resulting in exactly the same visual appearance? Does holding one frame for 16.6 ms look different from holding two exactly the same frames for 8.3 ms each on an OLED display without BFI?I don't expect most people to mind but when displaying 60 fps content in a 120hz container you do actually wind up with a slight double image effect - much like 30 fps within a 60hz container but with half the length of the double image. When combined with sample and hold displays, you won't see the double image effect as it blurs the frames together but the result is increased blur in motion. It's there whether using BFI or not - it's just that BFI clearly displays the double image effect due to elimination of persistence blur. I'm super super sensitive to these issues, however, in a way that perhaps most people are not so I can appreciate that it won't bother many others.
I don't expect most people to mind but when displaying 60 fps content in a 120hz container you do actually wind up with a slight double image effect - much like 30 fps within a 60hz container but with half the length of the double image. When combined with sample and hold displays, you won't see the double image effect as it blurs the frames together but the result is increased blur in motion. It's there whether using BFI or not - it's just that BFI clearly displays the double image effect due to elimination of persistence blur. I'm super super sensitive to these issues, however, in a way that perhaps most people are not so I can appreciate that it won't bother many others.
I'd need to think about this but I can say for sure that there is a very noticeable difference. Trying playing a side scrolling game like Sonic Mania at 60 or 120hz and, at least for me, it becomes noticeably blurrier when displaying 60fps within a 120hz container. It's extremely evident to my eyes!I don't quite understand how on a sample-and-hold display there should be any difference between a 60 Hz signal in a 120 Hz container and a 60 Hz signal in a 60 Hz container. Aren't the individual frames (from the 60 fps signal) displayed (and held) for exactly the same duration, thus resulting in exactly the same visual appearance? Does holding one frame for 16.6 ms look different from holding two exactly the same frames for 8.3 ms each on an OLED display without BFI?
Is implementing VRR for elden ring is too much to ask for? Can from get their technical shit together ?
I don't expect most people to mind but when displaying 60 fps content in a 120hz container you do actually wind up with a slight double image effect - much like 30 fps within a 60hz container but with half the length of the double image. When combined with sample and hold displays, you won't see the double image effect as it blurs the frames together but the result is increased blur in motion. It's there whether using BFI or not - it's just that BFI clearly displays the double image effect due to elimination of persistence blur. I'm super super sensitive to these issues, however, in a way that perhaps most people are not so I can appreciate that it won't bother many others.
They're doing it right now with HDMI2.1a:Do they still do it? That's not been updated since I'm over 10 years
(source, see also here and here)All products must comply with Version 2.1a of the HDMI Specification and the current Compliance Test Specification (CTS).
Learned a lot from your podcast segment about VRR. Do you like Xbox's approach or Sony's better? I know you had said that Xbox's approach has a lower floor for FPS limit and works on Xbox One games too, but it seemed like you all alluded that it is easier for PS5 games to receive a patch to recognize VRR and make specific modes for it (like Insomniac).I'd need to think about this but I can say for sure that there is a very noticeable difference. Trying playing a side scrolling game like Sonic Mania at 60 or 120hz and, at least for me, it becomes noticeably blurrier when displaying 60fps within a 120hz container. It's extremely evident to my eyes!
Why should it work ? Game is locked at 60Does VRR works in Returnal? Just the other day I've tried out but it doesn't work according to the CX VRR indicator?
I have this exact issue with the PS5 connected to my Denon lolI just noticed I'm having this issue with Spiderman Remastered, when Ratchet and Clank and Miles Morales are fine.
In Spiderman when I switch to 120hz in the setting menu before actually entering the game about 75% of the time I either get a black screen (with audio), big blocks of green, or some other screen corruption.
This is with my PS5 connected directly to my C9.
Not sure what's going on, since the other two Insomniac games have so far given me no problems at all.
No its not.
I certainly believe you see a difference. For sure also because you have trained yourself to see the differences (the curse of having seen it once).I don't expect most people to mind but when displaying 60 fps content in a 120hz container you do actually wind up with a slight double image effect - much like 30 fps within a 60hz container but with half the length of the double image.
For the effect you describe, I don't have a direct explanation. In theory, in both cases one frame is effectively visible for ~16.7ms.I'd need to think about this but I can say for sure that there is a very noticeable difference.
Thank you, I am very much aware of this menu and how to interpret it, but as I stated it is not easy or convenient to summon for a quick glance and lacks a dedicated VRR indicator as the CX, C1 and C2 do.There's a hidden debug menu which will show you all the info you need. Open the settings menu, select "Programmes", highlight "Programme Tuning & Settings" and press "1" five times. Press "right" to highlight the "HDMI" label and press "OK".
With TMDS you will see the effective refresh rate changing with VRR, with FRL (HDMI 2.1) the displayed vertical resolution changes if the framerate is not constant.
I certainly believe you see a difference. For sure also because you have trained yourself to see the differences (the curse of having seen it once).
But at the same time I'm pretty certain most people won't notice any motion blur difference between 60fps @60Hz and 60fps @120Hz.
For the effect you describe, I don't have a direct explanation. In theory, in both cases one frame is effectively visible for ~16.7ms.
Yes, with 120Hz there's a tiny gap between the two 8.3ms scanouts, but I don't think that's what you're seeing / describing.
What remains is the difference in the transition from one frame to the next. With 60Hz the transition obviously takes ~16ms while it takes only ~8ms with 120Hz.
My intuition would have been that this would lead to less motion blur. Maybe one of the Blur Busters experts has an explanation ...
I have this issue too also on C9, I thought it migh be an Issue with the HDMI cable that came with the PS5 so I have ordered a new one. If you press the PS button and go to home then switch back it sould rectify itself but worrying still.