I just need a few weirdos on social media's posts to satiate my dark hungerLol no one who shamed others for not voting last time will stay home this time.
I just need a few weirdos on social media's posts to satiate my dark hungerLol no one who shamed others for not voting last time will stay home this time.
You won't see that from anyone around here. Hop over in the other thread and even the most ardent Hillary stans from 2016 have said many times they'll vote for Sanders in the general without a moment's hesitation if he is the nominee.One of the coolest petty things about a bernie nomination will be the people who spent the last four years shaming people for not voting last time rationalizing why they're staying home this time.
You don't gotta be a dick about it.You haven't been following politics long, have you?
Maybe if you're white they won't.
And we all know how far an apology goes in politics, don't we?
And people are well known for making measured judgements based on a politician's actual policy.
No matter who you support in the Dem primaries, I think we all need to keep in mind how powerful and effective the Republican attack machine is, and how it has yet to be turned on any of the current candidates with full force.You don't gotta be a dick about it.
The GOP aren't going to bring up a Daily Beast article where some of the prominent black leaders in Vermont had issues with Bernie's lack of focus on racial issues. The liberal leaning corporate media outlets might try to make the general case that Bernie has a race problem, but it'll likely be in bad faith as opposed to bring up actual criticisms.
They brought out the 1970's article last time around and it didn't really gain any traction.
And finally, people like Bernie because he's pushing policies that people want. This isn't the 1990's or even 2012.
I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, but thanks for the breakdown. You definitely out petty-ed meYou won't see that from anyone around here. Hop over in the other thread and even the most ardent Hillary stans from 2016 have said many times they'll vote for Sanders in the general without a moment's hesitation if he is the nominee.
I voted for Sanders in 2016 and voted for Clinton in the general. I'm probably going to vote for Sanders again in the primary unless Warren rebounds, but I'll vote for Biden in the general if he's the nominee (and right now, I think he will be). Anyone who went Bernie or Bust in 2016 is a jerk, anyone who went PUMA in 2008 and voted for McCain is a jerk, anyone who keeps this up next year, regardless of the nominee, is a jerk. Why is this so hard?
I'd say the pettiest thing I'm looking forward to out of a Sanders presidency is his supporters realizing he won't actually be able to wave his magic wand on day one and we'll suddenly have single-payer, legal weed and everyone's student loans paid off, but I actually don't look forward to because I'd rather prefer if those things did happen, and also I suspect many of his disillusioned supporters would simply choose to believe that Sanders himself was the problem all along, rather than recognizing the systemic obstacles that make change in this country extremely difficult at best.
To be fair, the smear of Clinton was done over decades. It was easy to pick up dirt on her when it was purposely built for them.No matter who you support in the Dem primaries, I think we all need to keep in mind how powerful and effective the Republican attack machine is, and how it has yet to be turned on any of the current candidates with full force.
Clinton was one of the most popular politicians in the country before she ran...
My pettiness largely comes from wanting to believe that the left will win and make things better, but repeatedly being burned by voter apathy and ignorance.I wasn't talking about anyone in particular, but thanks for the breakdown. You definitely out petty-ed me
Lol no one who shamed others for not voting last time will stay home this time.
My original point is that I see Biden getting fucked by that machine WAAAAAAYYYY harder than Sanders. The GOP has unsuccessfully attacked socialist policies for the past 4 years. The true strength of their attack machine has always been criticizing establishment democrats for their perceived corruption and entrenchment in the Washington machine.No matter who you support in the Dem primaries, I think we all need to keep in mind how powerful and effective the Republican attack machine is, and how it has yet to be turned on any of the current candidates with full force.
Clinton was the most popular politician in the country before she ran...
Every one of these politicians has dirt on them to be exploited, much of which is already in oppo folders at the RNC & Trump headquarters. No one will get a free ride, and every one of their approval ratings will take a serious hit once we move to the general.To be fair, the smear of Clinton was done over decades. It was easy to pick up dirt on her when it was purposely built for them.
I would post the thisistheworstdayofmylife.jpeg if I had itMy pettiness largely comes from wanting to believe that the left will win and make things better, but consistently being burned by voter apathy and ignorance.
2016? Please, I'm still mad about the 2014 and 2010 elections.
I love Warren but I'm still not super sure if I'm voting Sanders or Warren. Right now it's 50/50 in my mind.Apparently it's going to have to be.
That said, vote Warren in the primary.
Because Warren and Bernie have class consciousness. Some low class salt of the Earth (R) might tangibly see a benefit from two terms of Warren or Bernie (+ successor) and eventually be more responsible and reasonable when it comes to politics. Nothing will change for him under Biden, he will retreat to bitter and hateful and here comes efficient as hell Fascist 2.0 running for the presidency who isn't dogshit dumb like Trump.This doesn't make sense. If we're arguing the hypothetical backlash impact from a particular candidate winning, how can you argue Biden would be worse than a further left candidate like Warren or Bernie?
To be clear, the GOP has absolutely not attacked Sanders (or any other Dem) with anything close to their full weight. Right now GOP strategists view Sanders as an easier opponent to beat, and are therefore largely laying off him, but again they are saving their big guns for the general For every candidate.My original point is that I see Biden getting fucked by that machine WAAAAAAYYYY harder than Sanders. The GOP has unsuccessfully attacked socialist policies for the past 4 years. Meanwhile, the true strength of their attack machine has always been at criticizing establishment democrats for their perceived corruption and entrenchment in the Washington machine.
Mix that with Biden's nonsensical doddering and embarrassing past speeches and I think you have the makings of a fatal attack campaign.
Glad that my genuine dismay that Russ Feingold, sole vote against the Patriot Act in the Senate and co-author of the McCain-Feingold campaign finance bill that was gutted by Citizens United (a ruling that I have since been informed was totally supported by the Democratic establishment, bro), lost in 2010 due to sub-50% turnout continues to bring joy to the lives of younger leftistsI would post the thisistheworstdayofmylife.jpeg if I had it
It's not easy being this young, sexy, and optimistic, but I make it work
Clinton is Haiti's Trump. You don't need to manufacture her dirt when it's 90 miles off the coast of FL. She's a hypocrite of the highest order. Democrats need to do better and stop rallying around trash.To be fair, the smear of Clinton was done over decades. It was easy to pick up dirt on her when it was purposely built for them.
It doesn't bring me joy, I've just seen people post it and you acknowledge that it was you. I thought it would be a fun joke. I didn't know the context of your entire online posting history.Glad that my genuine dismay that Russ Feingold, sole vote against the Patriot Act in the Senate and co-author of the McCain-Feingold campaign finance bill that was gutted by Citizens United (a ruling that I have since been informed was totally supported by the Democratic establishment, bro), lost in 2010 due to sub-50% turnout continues to bring joy to the lives of younger leftists
To be fair, the smear of Clinton was done over decades. It was easy to pick up dirt on her when it was purposely built for them.
It's really two different questions. Who do you think would win with the same electorate as 2016, and who do you think would win if the makeup of the electorate ends up being radically different?Let's be honest, when the article mentions Republicans in 2016 willing to flip on Trump, they were never going to flip for Hillary. Those are the types of voters they're talking about. Could Biden pull it off now? Now that Republicans who are actually somewhat honest with themselves have gotten a taste? Maybe?
Hard to argue with this postAs long as the youth remain unreliable, it's probably the most viable tactic.
Biden doesn't appeal to swing voters because he's to the right though, he appeals to them because he's a funny old white dude with an explicit connection to the popular Obama presidency.I'll never get over how depressing it is that for many the "smart" strategy is trying to flip republicans with inscrutable motivations by going as far right as possible while still keeping your D, but energizing disenfranchised people who don't vote through things like class politics is a fairy tale for idiots. We have a very cool country.
Because even in theory, it's the only way forward.
Depending on a Republican realignment after a 2020 loss is not going to work, even in theory.
Because Warren and Bernie have class consciousness. Some low class salt of the Earth (R) might tangibly see a benefit from two terms of Warren or Bernie (+ successor) and eventually be more responsible and reasonable when it comes to politics. Nothing will change for him under Biden, he will retreat to bitter and hateful and here comes efficient as hell Fascist 2.0 running for the presidency who isn't dogshit dumb like Trump.
The Fascist right has a better chance of coming back even more powerful with another corporate groveling rich folks first Centrist in power.
Wishcasting defined much of the online discourse surrounding Sanders' candidacy against the establishment favorite (Clinton in 2016, Biden in 2020) last election, doesn't seem like anything's changed.Lol, this is just assertion. And not even very reasonable or logically supported assertion at that.
It really seems like all of you just argue things for the sole reason you wish they were true. That seems like enough to argue they actually are true. It's going to lead you all to a lot of disappointment.
You were informed very badly, the democratic establishment was against Citizen United, one of the few times Obama broke his usual protocol and frontally attacked the Supreme Court majority. After the judicial decision was made there was little to be done, except to support a constitutional amendment or expect a liberal majority in the Supreme Court reverse the decision.Glad that my genuine dismay that Russ Feingold, sole vote against the Patriot Act in the Senate and co-author of the McCain-Feingold campaign finance bill that was gutted by Citizens United (a ruling that I have since been informed was totally supported by the Democratic establishment, bro), lost in 2010 due to sub-50% turnout continues to bring joy to the lives of younger leftists
Why would my Black ass want an efficient Trump in power? I don't want to be proven true at all and hope I'm wrong. If Biden wins, he's got 4 years to prove me wrong and make sure Jedidiah doesn't turn to Nazism.I think your argument really is "this is what I want to be true so I will argue it is."
It's not a coherent or logical position. You just assert a voting group that simply hasn't demonstrated any kind of voting power will suddenly become the difference maker. It's not a supported position.
Lol, this is just assertion. And not even very reasonable or logically supported assertion at that.
It really seems like all of you just argue things for the sole reason you wish they were true. That seems like enough to argue they actually are true. It's going to lead you all to a lot of disappointment.
Trump voters can be pulled away, we saw that in 2018.90%+ of Republicans will vote for Trump no matter what, as historical data from the article suggests. It's a folly to believe Biden can change that in any meaningful way, and certainly not enough to compensate alienated youth democrat voters.
Why would my Black ass want an efficient Trump in power? I don't want to be proven true at all and hope I'm wrong. If Biden wins, he's got 4 years to prove me wrong and make sure Jedidiah doesn't turn to Nazism.
They haven't yet, that's true. But they won't be successful when they do. How would you take down someone like Sanders using a bad faith attack machine? It wasn't hard to do for Clinton because people were already susceptible to the idea that she's a part of the corrupt Washington machinery. All Clinton had to do was do the dumb fucking email thing and it got people's minds racing about what she was trying to hide, forwarding on the GOP's narrative.To be clear, the GOP has absolutely not attacked Sanders (or any other Dem) with anything close to their full weight. Right now GOP strategists view Sanders as an easier opponent to beat, and are therefore largely laying off him, but again they are saving their big guns for the general For every candidate.
I'm not sure where you got the idea socialist policies are popular enough with the general public that those numbers can't be damaged, or that GOP attacks against such policies have not been effective in the past. They have been, very much so.
Wishcasting defined much of the online discourse surrounding Sanders' candidacy against the establishment favorite (Clinton in 2016, Biden in 2020) last election, doesn't seem like anything's changed.
I think your argument really is "this is what I want to be true so I will argue it is."
It's not a coherent or logical position. You just assert a voting group that simply hasn't demonstrated any kind of voting power will suddenly become the difference maker. It's not a supported position.
enough to argue they actually are true. It's going to lead you all to a lot of disappointment.
That was sarcasm.You were informed very badly, the democratic establishment was against Citizen United, one of the few times Obama broke his usual protocol and frontally attacked the Supreme Court majority. After the judicial decision was made there was little to be done, except to support a constitutional amendment or expect a liberal majority in the Supreme Court reverse the decision.
Bernie has been in Congress for 30 years. He is not a Washington outsider, or at least no one will think of him that way when the GOP is done.They haven't yet, that's true. But they won't be successful when they do. How would you take down someone like Sanders using a bad faith attack machine? It wasn't hard to do for Clinton because people were already susceptible to the idea that she's a part of the corrupt Washington machinery. All Clinton had to do was do the dumb fucking email thing and it got people's minds racing about what she was trying to hide, forwarding on the GOP's narrative.
They don't have something like that for Bernie. The best they can do is try to discredit socialism, which again, I think will backfire on them. Socialism is inherently an outsider ideology in this country and people REALLY want someone outside of the D.C. bubble to be President. I think that reasoning is the main reason why independents went for Trump in 2016. People may not entirely understand what Bernie wants to do, but he'll appear like someone who will bring change to the office and therefore the Government as a whole in the way they wanted Trump to do.
And Bernie has conviction in his policies. One of the reasons the GOP has been so successful in fucking with public opinion on Democratic policies is because the Dems fold on things as soon as the tide starts turning. Their policies are also generally complicated and therefore are easier to obscure and misinform about. And yeah, maybe my bias has blinded me to some degree, but I'm willing to bet that they won't find leverage on Bernie's policies. They are simple to understand and good for everyone at the expense of rich people. Things have gotten bad for working class and middle class people, it's going to be hard to convince people that getting things they need by taking money from the INCREDIBLY WEALTHY is a bad thing.
But we'll see. The industries that Bernie is going after are going to dump an epic shit ton of cash to prevent him from becoming president. If Bloomberg can buy 5% of democratic voter's attention, maybe the GOP and the health insurance industry can buy the votes they need to get Trump reelected.
I still like Bernie's chances over Biden though. All those embarrassing soundbites are going to kill him
What leftism did he introduce? He was a centrist. The man described himself as right leaning had he been elected in a previous decade.It honestly seems bizarre to me that after what Obama dealt with with even perceived leftism you and others think actual far left progressivism is the option that would motivate less blacklash.
Obama went through his nonsense because he was Black, not because any perceived leftism.It honestly seems bizarre to me that after what Obama dealt with with even perceived leftism you and others think actual far left progressivism is the option that would motivate less blacklash.
You know as well as I do that Bernie is perceived as an outsider. He ran against Hillary Clinton and did an incredible job at it considering he was relatively unknown prior to that. His public perception is inextricably linked to his opposition of Clinton and his major policy differences to the Democratic platform.Bernie has been in Congress for 30 years. He is not a Washington outsider, or at least no one will think of him that way when the GOP is done.
Most of your statements are just theories, which could be true, but I don't think we have any data to back them up. What we do know is that socialism has been a boogeyman in America for 100 years, and the GOP will pull every trick possible to make the electorate remember that.
It might not work, but you can't just say it will fail. We don't know.
It does not matter how he is perceived now, that's the point. The GOP will attack the idea that he is an outsider, will attack his personal record, will attack socialism, all at a level and intensity that Bernie has never come anywhere close to experiencing. We don't know how he will be perceived a month after the primary ends (if he wins), let alone by Election Day.You know as well as I do that Bernie is perceived as an outsider. He ran against Hillary Clinton and did an incredible job at it considering he was relatively unknown prior to that. His public perception is inextricably linked to his opposition of Clinton and his major policy differences to the Democratic platform.
But yeah, these are all theories. There's some numerical data to back some of it up but certainly not enough to prove all of my points. We'll see soon enough.
It's not so much that I'm sure that building a coalition of people who don't traditionally vote will work.
It's that I'm sure that building an electoral coalition with Republicans has 0% chance of working. Zip, zilch, nada.
What leftism did he introduce? He was a centrist. The man described himself as right leaning had he been elected in a previous decade.
Obama went through his nonsense because he was Black, not because any perceived leftism.
If he personally handed Republican voters each a million dollars they'd still call him an N by Sunday. The naive fella wouldn't get the message and would invite them for dinner to change their minds.
They haven't yet, that's true. But they won't be successful when they do. How would you take down someone like Sanders using a bad faith attack machine? It wasn't hard to do for Clinton because people were already susceptible to the idea that she's a part of the corrupt Washington machinery. All Clinton had to do was do the dumb fucking email thing and it got people's minds racing about what she was trying to hide, forwarding on the GOP's narrative.
They don't have something like that for Bernie. The best they can do is try to discredit socialism, which again, I think will backfire on them. Socialism is inherently an outsider ideology in this country and people REALLY want someone outside of the D.C. bubble to be President. I think that reasoning is the main reason why independents went for Trump in 2016. People may not entirely understand what Bernie wants to do, but he'll appear like someone who will bring change to the office and therefore the Government as a whole in the way they wanted Trump to do.
And Bernie has conviction in his policies. One of the reasons the GOP has been so successful in fucking with public opinion on Democratic policies is because the Dems fold on things as soon as the tide starts turning. Their policies are also generally complicated and therefore are easier to obscure and misinform about. And yeah, maybe my bias has blinded me to some degree, but I'm willing to bet that they won't find leverage on Bernie's policies. They are simple to understand and good for everyone at the expense of rich people. Things have gotten bad for working class and middle class people, it's going to be hard to convince people that getting things they need by taking money from the INCREDIBLY WEALTHY is a bad thing.
But we'll see. The industries that Bernie is going after are going to dump an epic shit ton of cash to prevent him from becoming president. If Bloomberg can buy 5% of democratic voter's attention, maybe the GOP and the health insurance industry can buy the votes they need to get Trump reelected.
I still like Bernie's chances over Biden though. All those embarrassing soundbites are going to kill him
The Affordable Care Act was massively redistributive. We also wouldn't be talking about Medicare for All in (somewhat) realistic terms today if it hadn't been passed.What leftism did he introduce? He was a centrist. The man described himself as right leaning had he been elected in a previous decade.
Some notes for myself: how much impact have Obama's policies actually had on current and prospective inequality?
The main policies to consider are PPACA (the health reform) and ATRA (the fiscal cliff deal with its associated tax rise).
I'm not a fan of the Tax Foundation's work, but their analysis of the distributional effects of Obamacare looks about right: significant benefits to the bottom half of the income distribution, paid for largely by taxes on the top few percent (the Medicare surcharge and the extra tax on investment income). The Tax Policy Center — whose work I do trust — has the Act reducing the after-tax income of the top 1 percent by 1.8 percent, the top 0.1 percent by 2.5 percent.
Meanwhile, ATRA raises taxes relative to a continuation of the Bush high-end tax cuts: after-tax income down 4.5 percent for the 1-percenters, 6.2 percent for the top 0.1 percent.
Putting this together, we have a roughly 6 percent hit to the 1 percent, around 9 to the superelite. That's only a partial rollback of these groups' huge gains since 1980, but it's not trivial.
All I'm saying is that Sanders came onto the national stage as an outsider trying to change politics and is continuing to run on that as a part of his core message. That would be a very hard thing to attack him on.It does not matter how he is perceived now, that's the point. The GOP will attack the idea that he is an outsider, will attack his personal record, will attack socialism, all at a level and intensity that Bernie has never come anywhere close to experiencing. We don't know how he will be perceived a month after the primary ends (if he wins), let alone by Election Day.
Primary results honestly don't matter much for reading the general.
We have the data on these moderate voters. They, shockingly, prefer more moderate candidates. Large swaths of the electorate fall into this category. The most reliable voters fall into this category. It's not enough to just want this to not be true.