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WaffleTaco

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,908
Avengers is a poor film that relies solely on the fact that it's the first team-up film. The villain is lame, the plot is generic, and the characters are almost all white and male. It was an event-film that will be relied solely on nostalgia as the first "universe" film. (Even though X-men existed a decade before it). That being said, they have really stepped it up in phase 3, and I am much more excited now than I was when Avengers came out. It sucks though that we are just now getting an MCU film with a poc superhero as the lead. And we still have to wait another year for woman superhero.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,781
I seem to be the only one who prefers Ultron to the first Avengers. First one was boring as hell. And I don't know why everyone hates Ultron himself so much.
Ultron is imo the most underrated villain in the MCU. The problem is the movie doesn't necessarily service him well, mostly on account of structure. I think they did a great job in depicting Ultron as a character who, more than just boasting delusions of grandeur and world dominance, is kinda just disturbed, confused and overwhelmed - his constantly shifting emotions, his tendency to crack dry jokes in the most inopportune situations, his desire for an audience and how the twins' abandonment makes him dejected, the brilliant "born yesterday" scene, etc. All of it is great stuff, but because the movie kinda jumps all over the place there's not much time to dwell on it or spend time with him, and as such it's easy to just see him as a robot who continues to add to the quip quota.
 

sad but rad

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
752
Mr. Fantastic couldn't reach as hard as some of you have in this thread.


Ignoring that the first Avengers movie is gonna basically be Star Wars for an entire generation is....lol

It isn't, did it have impact on Hollywood? Sure. Is it near on the level of Star Wars? Absolutely not. The Original 3 Star Wars hold up, The Avengers/AoU don't. They haven't aged well at all.

I think Avengers 1, Iron Man and Guardians will probably be seen as classics. Iron Man and Avengers were essential for making the MCU a phenomenon and Guardians is a great comical adventure.

On the DCEU side, Wonder Woman has a chance as well to be seeen as a classic since it's like the first really good and successful superheroine movie (although I thought the Ares stuff ruined it at the end)

None of these will be seen as classics. Will Iron Man and Avengers have a nice "Impact" section on Wikipedia? Sure. If you can't discern what makes something a classic vs what makes something impactful, just don't talk about this stuff. At least you could MAYBE make an argument for Avengers and Iron Man, but Guardians? Goodbye.

Two things:

1) The Avengers is an absolute classic. Great reviews, the first CBM team up from different IPs (yes, even if it's under the same umbrella) and amazing BO success that had studios scrambling to create its own cinematic universe. It had impact culturally and in the industry.

2) Gal Gadot was ok in WW, but nothing more. I thought she struggled with a few lines and honestly felt anyone else could've replaced her. I can't say the same for Chris Evans and RDJ.

Avengers isn't a classic, not all movies that had an impact are classics.

Wonder Woman was a milestone, and likely will be remembered for longer than Avengers will. I wouldn't even call it a classic necessarily, but it means more to more people than the Avengers does.
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
I seem to be the only one who prefers Ultron to the first Avengers. First one was boring as hell. And I don't know why everyone hates Ultron himself so much.
Avengers 1 is like the perfect saturday cartoon. It doesn't reach to the stars with anything it does, but what it does, it does really well. Age of Ultron is the more ambitious, bigger sequel that does a lot of things better but falls a bit short on some of its ambitions and as such doesn't leave one completely satisfied. That plus pacing issues make it a bit less enjoyable to watch, especially on rewatches.

Ultron is a more interesting villain conceptually, but they should've done a bit more with him to make him seem like a real threat just as himself. His birth and death are the best parts about him. It's the middle portions that could've used some work, just felt he could've been more menacing and give him that moment where he alone just wrecks shit up.
 

Hero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,794
Mr. Fantastic couldn't reach as hard as some of you have in this thread.




It isn't, did it have impact on Hollywood? Sure. Is it near on the level of Star Wars? Absolutely not. The Original 3 Star Wars hold up, The Avengers/AoU don't. They haven't aged well at all.



None of these will be seen as classics. Will Iron Man and Avengers have a nice "Impact" section on Wikipedia? Sure. If you can't discern what makes something a classic vs what makes something impactful, just don't talk about this stuff. At least you could MAYBE make an argument for Avengers and Iron Man, but Guardians? Goodbye.



Avengers isn't a classic, not all movies that had an impact are classics.

Wonder Woman was a milestone, and likely will be remembered for longer than Avengers will. I wouldn't even call it a classic necessarily, but it means more to more people than the Avengers does.

Avengers is the definition of a milestone, not sure what kind of stuff you are on, but to deny it is to reject reality.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,781
Avengers isn't a classic, not all movies that had an impact are classics.

Wonder Woman was a milestone, and likely will be remembered for longer than Avengers will. I wouldn't even call it a classic necessarily, but it means more to more people than the Avengers does.

I need pot holders for these hot takes because they're getting out of hand.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,767
Toronto, ON
Saw Thor: Ragnarok last night...not a masterpiece by any means, but it's a fun, swift, entertaining little piece of movie candy. Marvel makes it all look effortless. That's the big difference here...you can see DC sweat and plead in every frame. The DC "cinematic universe" is basically:

giphy.gif
 
Last edited:
Oct 28, 2017
13,691
I haven't seen the film yet, but people keep saying there is a tonal clash and blaming Whedon -- but weren't early reports saying WB and Snyder were adding more jokes and lightening the tone themselves? In fact, didn't some of the first footage have a bunch of jokes well before Whedon was brought on?

I think people should stop looking to dissect that element, and just admit the movie (apparently) is a dud.

It's not so much the lighter tone it's the dialog and character beats are so uniquely Whedon in execution that there is no mistaking which scenes belong to him. Also the reshoots have an all around lower production quality. They really hurt the technical aspects of the movie
 

Mariachi507

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,298
I don't understand the Ultron (character) hate either. As for the movie itself, the backlash I see for it is just as perplexing (you can throw Iron Man 3 in that sentence as well). It's main issue is bloat, and some of the action sequences/set-pieces aren't really memorable and kind of get lost in the wind. Whedon isn't much of a visual director and it shows in these moments. However, I will say it's a definite step above the visuals/camerawork of its predecessor. As jam packed as the movie is, there are plenty of good moments including some nice character bits as it actually tries to tell us more about them than what's on the surface. It's also an important jumping off point for the story threads that followed in phase III, so its impact is felt. As I stated though, there are some misfires which keeps it from being a complete success.

For a big budget summer flick, you could do a lot worse than Age of Ultron.

As it was mentioned above though, there is a glass ceiling to the quality of these films. It's easy to get burnt out on them, but if they didn't exist it's not like we still wouldn't be given this onslaught of mindless action movies every year. At least with the MCU I can "mostly" expect to not have my time wasted.
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
I dont think there's that much difference between the two Avengers films honestly. One is a 7/10, the other is a 6/10.

Honestly, if you look at these movies outside of the genre, they are just never gonna reach the heights of what cinema can do. The last and arguably only time one came close was with The Dark Knight but even that was bogged down with other issues.

The success of the MCU is built on a consistent output of 6-7 movies with the occasional outlier upwards or downwards. And that's totally ok. Hell, if you look at some of these attempts (aka 99% of what the Rock does), 7 is great, especially three times a year.

And I'd probably rewatch either one before Civil War again.

I'm gonna fight you.
 

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
The people saying Avengers 1 isn't good or doesn't hold up is the hottest take I've heard in this thread.
 

TerminusFox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,851
With MoS, you could see the flaws, add/nix a few scenes in the beginning middle,and end, and you'd fix a vast majority of the critiques easily (especially the ending!) and it would've been a decent if not good start to a new universe.

I'm sorry, but BvS and SS were objective failures from top to bottom from concept all the way to execution. You'd have to literally make a different movie/story for it to be even in the ballpark of mediocre.
 

Ringten

Member
Nov 15, 2017
6,195
The people saying Avengers 1 isn't good or doesn't hold up is the hottest take I've heard in this thread.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I personally liked it. For those who are saying it doesn't hold up, they must not have seen justice league yet: its leagues ahead of JL (pun intended). And the fact that JL came out so many years later just make it embarrassing
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
If you're honestly saying that The first Avengers movie even starts to hold a candle to Star Wars, you're trippin.
Apples to oranges. In terms of shaking up the ENTIRE movie industry who have chased the "cinematic universe" approach to mixed results and become a cultural landmark film that resonated on a global scale... Hell yes, it holds a candle to Star Wars.

But Star Wars was its own thing, not an adaptation of characters who have been around for decades already. It pioneered special effects and merchandising to a degree unheard of before.

But for this generation? Yeah, buddy. Avengers is their Star Wars. The same love for the world, characters, powers, and everything.
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
Star Wars and Avengers are practically the same movie:

- Terrible costumes
- Kooky action
- Funny one liners
- Throwaway goons
- mind control
- Hero wins by shooting something into a hole

might as well go all in
 

SENPAIatLARGE

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,501
Avengers is a poor film that relies solely on the fact that it's the first team-up film. The villain is lame, the plot is generic, and the characters are almost all white and male. It was an event-film that will be relied solely on nostalgia as the first "universe" film. (Even though X-men existed a decade before it). That being said, they have really stepped it up in phase 3, and I am much more excited now than I was when Avengers came out. It sucks though that we are just now getting an MCU film with a poc superhero as the lead. And we still have to wait another year for woman superhero.
giphy.gif

The only reason the Justice League movie exists is because of the avengers. You know that to be true.
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
If you're honestly saying that The first Avengers movie even starts to hold a candle to Star Wars, you're trippin.

This is such a dumb argument. Even if I'm in complete agreement about Avengers not being as good as Star Wars, being as good as Star Wars isn't the bar for being a classic film. Saying "the Avengers is basically Star Wars for an entire generation" isn't saying "it's just as good as Star Wars was", it's acknowledging how the movie is gonna be the definitive theater-going experience and favorite movie for a lot of people when you ask around years from now. Because it will be.

It's like when old heads try to argue Lebron isn't the best player of his generation because "he ain't no MJ". Even if he couldn't hold MJ's jock strap, if the bar is that high for everyone, nobody is great. It's such a ridiculously flawed premise.
 

sad but rad

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
752
Apples to oranges. In terms of shaking up the ENTIRE movie industry who have chased the "cinematic universe" approach to mixed results and become a cultural landmark film that resonated on a global scale... Hell yes, it holds a candle to Star Wars.

But Star Wars was its own thing, not an adaptation of characters who have been around for decades already. It pioneered special effects and merchandising to a degree unheard of before.

But for this generation? Yeah, buddy. Avengers is their Star Wars. The same love for the world, characters, powers, and everything.
You're welcome to say Avengers is their Star Wars on a purely entertainment level. Everything else is a no go. Avengers pioneered nothing except the idea of a cinematic universe, which is already starting to get tired.
 

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,444
Wonder Woman was good, but you're going to have a hard time convincing people that it's a more memorable film than X2/DoFP/Logan, Spider-Man 1/2, Deadpool, Iron Man, BB/Dark Knight, Winter Soldier, or Avengers. Being the first DC film that wasn't poorly written since Christopher Nolan moved on doesn't automatically make it the best superhero film of all time.

Avengers is a modern classic because everyone you know has seen it, everyone still quotes it, its impact is still being felt in blockbusters half a decade later, and it's still rewatchable today.

It will take much more time to say the same of WW.

You're welcome to say Avengers is their Star Wars on a purely entertainment level. Everything else is a no go. Avengers pioneered nothing except the idea of a cinematic universe, which is already starting to get tired.

Tired, with multiple "cinematic universe" films reviewing well and making $800 million+ just this year? Come on.
 

sad but rad

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
752
This is such a dumb argument. Even if I'm in complete agreement about Avengers not being as good as Star Wars, being as good as Star Wars isn't the bar for being a classic film. Saying "the Avengers is basically Star Wars for an entire generation" isn't saying "it's just as good as Star Wars was", it's acknowledging how the movie is gonna be the definitive theater-going experience and favorite movie for a lot of people when you ask around years from now. Because it will be.

It's like when old heads try to argue Lebron isn't the best player of his generation because "he ain't no MJ". Even if he couldn't hold MJ's jock strap, if the bar is that high for everyone, nobody is great. It's such a ridiculously flawed premise.
It won't be though, it's already been surpassed in its own franchise. Even if you wanted to go outside of that franchise, TFA will be far more remembered as a theater-going experience than Avengers will. Shit, even Infinity War will likely be more remembered.

tumblr_m8ntdagZyX1rako0qo9_250.gif
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
Avengers is a poor film that relies solely on the fact that it's the first team-up film. The villain is lame, the plot is generic, and the characters are almost all white and male. It was an event-film that will be relied solely on nostalgia as the first "universe" film. (Even though X-men existed a decade before it). That being said, they have really stepped it up in phase 3, and I am much more excited now than I was when Avengers came out. It sucks though that we are just now getting an MCU film with a poc superhero as the lead. And we still have to wait another year for woman superhero.

On what planet are the X-Men films cinematic universes, though? They're team, ensemble movies that had only ever spun off a lone Wolverine movie by the time the MCU really started to get under way. Compare that to the Avengers being the sixth movie following 5 independent solo outings for the heroes starring in it. What are you talking about?

And if we're gonna have an honest discussion about how this weekend's box office performance was underwhelming for Justice League, I've been ready to talk about the X-Men movies largely performing just the same, with the second biggest property in the Marvel universe.
 

y2dvd

Member
Nov 14, 2017
2,481
You're welcome to say Avengers is their Star Wars on a purely entertainment level. Everything else is a no go. Avengers pioneered nothing except the idea of a cinematic universe, which is already starting to get tired.

So Star Wars is the only thing considered a classic to you? You keep saying things aren' classic without explaining why. What makes a movie a classic and what are 5 of the most recent movies on your list?
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,767
Toronto, ON
Y'all are crazy, the first Avengers movie is an absolute cracker of an adventure movie, pure crowd-pleaser, tons of great action, lots of humor, and a genuine slice of soul. More than anything, it has real character moments that feel earned and natural...these really feel like actual people who are caught up in a cosmic, over-their-heads event, not walking action figures designed to fit into some corporate cinematic universe. That's the great achievement of the film and that's why it still has a lot of kick today. I don't think it's aged that badly at all, especially in the face of something like Justice League/the DC CU as a whole, which so desperately wants to replicate its strengths and has failed so miserably. Saying that Avengers is on the level of Star Wars might be a bit of a stretch, but I can see the argument. Its cultural impact is almost on the same level, we're still living in its wake today. Half the big blockbusters released in the past five years are a direct result of that movie.

Age of Ultron on the other hand, is just not that great, in my opinion. It definitely has some great scenes, and overall, it's miles above the DC film output. I certainly don't think it's the worst Marvel film. But...yeah, it's not a knock-out.

* It feels rushed and undercooked;
* You can see the seams of the producers' notes, too much telegraphed lifting to put pieces into place for later movies;
* The Infinity Gem stuff/Thor's side trip was presented in an extremely confusing way (as a comics reader, I understood what was going on, but a lot of people left the theater saying, "What the heck was that all about, exactly?");
* Black Widow was seriously done dirty, between the "I'm a monster because I can't have children" thing, getting captured and becoming the usual caged damsel in distress, and the awkward love connection with Banner (I don't buy this relationship at all, Ruffalo is too old and they have no romantic chemistry together);
* Ultron seriously underutilized and ultimately forgettable...plus, I appreciate James Spader, but I feel like he was just the wrong choice for this. I never imagined Ultron being a sassy, urbane Northeasterner. Someone like Keith David would have been dope here.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
76,219
Providence, RI
If you're honestly saying that The first Avengers movie even starts to hold a candle to Star Wars, you're trippin.

In terms of cultural importance? It absolutely holds a candle.

In terms of quality?

... Actually, it holds a candle there too. A New Hope is not a bastion of cinema. Empire is another story. But if we're going to be honest with ourselves, there are many blockbusters equal to or better than A New Hope by this point.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
You're welcome to say Avengers is their Star Wars on a purely entertainment level. Everything else is a no go. Avengers pioneered nothing except the idea of a cinematic universe, which is already starting to get tired.
Star Wars wasn't wholly original either. It's got its roots deep in the pulp scifi Lucas grew up with. Flash Gordon. John Carter. Even a scarred dark wizard villain in scifi armor was something Marvel's own Doctor Doom did over a decade prior.

It was just an enjoyable and influential film that resonated - like AVENGERS - but it didn't pioneer storytelling or character arcs. It was The Hero's Journey... A template used centuries before in all manner of literature and plays.
 

Temp_User

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,705
Warner Brother could only wish that Justice League have the same film-making competence and financial success as that 'terrible' Avengers:Age of Ultron.
 

Yasuke

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
19,817
It won't be though, it's already been surpassed in its own franchise. Even if you wanted to go outside of that franchise, TFA will be far more remembered as a theater-going experience than Avengers will. Shit, even Infinity War will likely be more remembered.

tumblr_m8ntdagZyX1rako0qo9_250.gif

Again, you're making points that aren't actually arguing against what I'm saying. Is A New Hope not the definitive movie of a generation despite the fact many people consider its sequel to be better than it? No. Again, completely humoring you, even if I agree that TFA is better than Avengers, that is not an argument against the Avengers being an all time classic. You're moving (extremely subjective) goal posts instead of acknowledging the truth in other people's theater-going experiences.

You're welcome to say Avengers is their Star Wars on a purely entertainment level. Everything else is a no go. Avengers pioneered nothing except the idea of a cinematic universe, which is already starting to get tired.

Again, why? Because you say so? Where is the proof that audiences don't like Marvel's cinematic universe anymore? Show me the receipts.
 

Helot_Azure

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,521
Avengers pretty much kickstarted the modern era of comic-book super-hero films. What do you think DC is trying to pull off with their cinematic universe? Why do you think they tried to shit out Justice League as quickly as possible?

Admittedly Avengers 2 was worse than Avengers 1, but I'll watch Avengers 2 before I'll watch anything from the DC snyder-verse.

Avengers 3 is probably going to be better than Avengers 1, which means it'll be the best comic-based movie of the last 10 years.
 
Oct 25, 2017
126
Canada
Avengers is a poor film that relies solely on the fact that it's the first team-up film. The villain is lame, the plot is generic, and the characters are almost all white and male. It was an event-film that will be relied solely on nostalgia as the first "universe" film. (Even though X-men existed a decade before it). That being said, they have really stepped it up in phase 3, and I am much more excited now than I was when Avengers came out. It sucks though that we are just now getting an MCU film with a poc superhero as the lead. And we still have to wait another year for woman superhero.
This is EXACTLY how I felt about The Avengers. The film was passable but overall I think the novelty of seeing all of the characters together on screen was what led to the great reception it got. I don't feel the need to rewatch it as I have with other films in the MCU (such as Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy).

I also agree that their output has been much better, especially in Phase 3. While their films don't break any standards in filmmaking, they are enjoyable enough and have an overall narrative driving the story throughout multiple films. I also agree that POC and women have been underrepresented so far, and I am excited for both Black Panther and Captain Marvel.
 

FireFistAce

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
692
It won't be though, it's already been surpassed in its own franchise. Even if you wanted to go outside of that franchise, TFA will be far more remembered as a theater-going experience than Avengers will. Shit, even Infinity War will likely be more remembered.

tumblr_m8ntdagZyX1rako0qo9_250.gif

I'm no Avengers fan but I think it will remembered more than TFA. The latter doesn't seem to have left any cultural footprint. I feel that the only reason we still remember the newer movies is because there's one every year.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,439
Avengers is a poor film that relies solely on the fact that it's the first team-up film. The villain is lame, the plot is generic, and the characters are almost all white and male. It was an event-film that will be relied solely on nostalgia as the first "universe" film. (Even though X-men existed a decade before it). That being said, they have really stepped it up in phase 3, and I am much more excited now than I was when Avengers came out. It sucks though that we are just now getting an MCU film with a poc superhero as the lead. And we still have to wait another year for woman superhero.
Loki is a great villain though, very egoistical and smug so it's so fun seeing the hulk bash him, it helped make a star of Tom Hiddleston for a reason.