Speaking with you is like speaking with a trump supporter. You clearly have selective understanding.
She started the mess with her racist comment she is obligated to look deeper into the criticism being directed at her.
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When Asian Women Are Harassed for Marrying Non-Asian Men (The Cut Article)
- Thread starter Goodstyle
- Start date
Speaking with you is like speaking with a trump supporter. You clearly have selective understanding.
She started the mess with her racist comment she is obligated to look deeper into the criticism being directed at her.
These kind of comments are despicable and should really not be tolerated.
Selective understanding my ass, but I will be keeping an eye out for you in the next incel thread and checking if you support the same call for understanding and "looking deeper" as you do here if the harassers aren't a minority or one that you personally relate to.
At least we got to the bottom of things that you think her past comment(s) justified her harassment. A bunch of you have been beating around the bush with the victim blaming and sticking to just light insinuations, but you straight up said it here. "She started it." Disgusting mindset you have there if you ask me.
The people with no horse in this.
White women, black people, latino people, dark skinned people. It would be interesting when they realize how much and prevalent whiteness is seek for privileges via proximity via their own experiences with people who are involved.
They will then come to a conclusion if this behavior is problematic for everyone who wants a post-racial society.
Zefah is doing a good job ironically, especially when he perpetuate the white supremacy talking point of Asian hating each other via historical reasons ( but you would almost never see the same rhetoric for Western nations that fought in the last two world wars ). It's literally divide and conquer nonsense.
White women, black people, latino people, dark skinned people. It would be interesting when they realize how much and prevalent whiteness is seek for privileges via proximity via their own experiences with people who are involved.
They will then come to a conclusion if this behavior is problematic for everyone who wants a post-racial society.
Zefah is doing a good job ironically, especially when he perpetuate the white supremacy talking point of Asian hating each other via historical reasons ( but you would almost never see the same rhetoric for Western nations that fought in the last two world wars ). It's literally divide and conquer nonsense.
This is so ridiculous, and shutting down discussion just because of asshole harrassers is not going to help at all.
People really need to read this article https://planamag.com/celeste-ng-controversy-deeper-roots-167717287ba1
Especially this part:
We shouldn't have to attach every post on this topic with a disclaimer that every individual doesn't support harrassment, that should just be the default position of all reasonable people. The fact the discussion opened with the article it did has colored a lot of the discussion with people having a kneejerk reaction to just be anti-anything that is associated with the people attacking the author. I will reiterate again that this topic has been raging for years, and just because some idiots have gotten bitter about it and lashed out recently doesn't mean we have to stop talking about it for fear we might be associated with them.
People really need to read this article https://planamag.com/celeste-ng-controversy-deeper-roots-167717287ba1
Especially this part:
We shouldn't have to attach every post on this topic with a disclaimer that every individual doesn't support harrassment, that should just be the default position of all reasonable people. The fact the discussion opened with the article it did has colored a lot of the discussion with people having a kneejerk reaction to just be anti-anything that is associated with the people attacking the author. I will reiterate again that this topic has been raging for years, and just because some idiots have gotten bitter about it and lashed out recently doesn't mean we have to stop talking about it for fear we might be associated with them.
It is not justified, but her making those comments draw criticism into why.
Let me make this clear. People drawing criticism towards her are not incels.
People have no problem with who she dates but it is why she dates and the comments she make.
I've obviously struck a chord with you with the trump comment. I figured as much.
You do not get to have a problem with why she or anyone else dates people. You have no ownership over her or any other woman. You can take issue with the comments and criticize them, but saying that "she started it" in a thread that is about how she has been harassed with some pretty horrific words is fucking ugly.
Of course you struck a nerve (I think that's what you meant to say) with the Trump supporter comment. That's a shitty thing to say about people. You figured as much about what? That you can get a rise out of people by resorting to ad hominems? What a revelation!
This is a thread about harassment, though. Why are so many of you trying to shift the topic in this thread?
People had already shifted the topic to talk about racial dating lines. Are we just supposed to post 'yeah fuck those guys' over and over in this thread until it dies?
I'm not blaming the victim here but simply pointing out the reason. What should be blamed is the awful patriarchal norms ingrained into most Asian cultures that push women away from wanting to deal with such potentially backward thinking partners. I don't blame any Asian woman who wants to run away from that. What I will call out is if they use this to generalise all Asian men out there and use awful excuses to cover their internalised racism.
This isn't straight up incel advocacy, nor victim blaming. Incel advocacy is to condone their behaviour. Explaining why their behaviour is like this is not. Everyone here is either a victim of the racial power play here, both Asian women and men.
What I ask is do you at least agree that her words "I do not often find Asian men attractive (They remind me of my cousins)" is racist? and that that as a prominent Asian American writer, her words do not contribute to a good outlook of Asian men.
You seem to constantly change the argument.
I've never once claimed who she could or couldn't date and neither has anyone else in this thread.
We have a problem with her racist attitude, what part of that don't you get?
If a racist draws criticism for their racist comments is that not okay? Is the criticism not warrented?
You said you had a problem with "why she dates." Did you make a mistake?
I absolutely believe she deserves criticism for
publishing those words. I prescribe to the definition of racism that requires a certain element of power, but her words are certainly prejudiced and damaging. To me, that's somewhat of a different topic, though, since this thread is about people sending horrendous shit her way. To bring up those words in light of that context is insinuating that she deserves it. That's how I see it at least.
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Celeste Ng tweets are public.
She seeks solidarity with a well known racist Esther Ku.
She wrote a book depicting problematic issues of a mixed parentage but somehow switch gender and race to Asian men and white woman.
All these deserved to be addressed, obviously not in harassing manner but through the platform she post her thoughts publicly.
I don't have a twitter account. For me, it doesn't impact me and because media representation are strong in Asia here and we aren't minority. But if I don't speak up in this thread, I know the Asian guys ( who live in the West ) that did will be labeled as incel or bitter. It's already prevalent in this thread.
Which is why if possible, I would go to other threads where other poc are prejudiced or subjected to racism and participate there instead.
But when you think about it, the reasons we felt like this where we need other to speak for us is precisely because the workings of white supremacy propaganda over the world as well as moderates white not capable of seeing from poc lens by and large, to quote Martin Luther King.
She seeks solidarity with a well known racist Esther Ku.
She wrote a book depicting problematic issues of a mixed parentage but somehow switch gender and race to Asian men and white woman.
All these deserved to be addressed, obviously not in harassing manner but through the platform she post her thoughts publicly.
I don't have a twitter account. For me, it doesn't impact me and because media representation are strong in Asia here and we aren't minority. But if I don't speak up in this thread, I know the Asian guys ( who live in the West ) that did will be labeled as incel or bitter. It's already prevalent in this thread.
Which is why if possible, I would go to other threads where other poc are prejudiced or subjected to racism and participate there instead.
But when you think about it, the reasons we felt like this where we need other to speak for us is precisely because the workings of white supremacy propaganda over the world as well as moderates white not capable of seeing from poc lens by and large, to quote Martin Luther King.
Yes why, the racial/racist/discriminatory motivations behind them, is what I meant by why.
People should date whoever.
But yesh, if the reason you don't date someone because they look like your relative by race, you got problems.
But yesh, if the reason you don't date someone because they look like your relative by race, you got problems.
Well you agree with most of us then, which is what we've been talking about. This is a forum where we discuss about the topic, whether further or deeper. Like I said, what is the point when you only remedy the surface? Yes we can have 16 pages talking about how horrible those incels are and condemn their actions, but that doesn't bring us closer to understanding why these incels exist and how to stop the cycle. What's the point of beating a dead horse when we can discuss about the causes. Like I wrote above, patriarchial norms in most Asian cultures is damaging.
And I object to your opinion that us calling a racist is somehow insinuating that she deserves it. She doesn't deserve harassment, but she should understand that the problem is deeper than "I'm being harassed". Please don't put words into my mouth because me and several members have time and time again condemned such harassment.
I don't know about you but this is something I have seen in my family circles and thus this topic is something I am invested in. And in no way am I avocadating for hating on Asian women for not dating Asian men, least the issue didn't even come to my mind until reading this threat since I am gay myself.
Hmm so my last 3 long term relationships were with Asian (Japanese, Hong Kong Chinese, and Korean to be specific) women including my current girlfriend.
The only difficulty we ever experienced had to do with parents. Possibly different in Vancouver and Canada though, with demographics being half Asian?
The only difficulty we ever experienced had to do with parents. Possibly different in Vancouver and Canada though, with demographics being half Asian?
i wish there was a summary of the thread. very interesting topic and lots of different arguments being made everywhere so it's impossible to keep up coming into the thread this late
i have an asian friend and she only dates white guys. it's kinda weird (given the context of where we live) but whatever i don't judge
i have an asian friend and she only dates white guys. it's kinda weird (given the context of where we live) but whatever i don't judge
I don't doubt it. In my experiences of living and visiting, I've always felt more at home in BC than in the US.
Well, it's really more of an Asian American thing, hence the other topic titled that, not so much the Asian Community self.
I know the article was written from that perspective and US has an issue with grouping cultures into a bucket then melting pot them into "-American" that I could vent about for a while.
But as we discuss this it's important to take specific cultural and ethnicity into account imo because it's not all the same in terms of this subject. Like for example I believe a Caucasian dating someone Japan or Korea of that ethnicity definitely has a very different societal reaction then dating someone in China which has gone on a very recent anti-western movement culturally and politically that influences judgements and reactions there. And then with social media it applies to people outside the country.
I think in this context we are purely talking about Asian Americans or at least Asians who are raised in the west and are at least for the most part culturally western (of course partially Chinese/Japanese/Korean etc because of their household upbringing too). But here we are concentrating on the fact that some Asian women have been found to say that they "won't date Asians, because they look like my cousin/brother" regardless if they maybe they have no hint of Asian upbringing i.e. adoptee brought up in a White American household.
If we do dive deeper into this conversation, yes different ethnicities and regions will matter. But I think for the sake of simplification, even within the discourse of Asian Americans, they will choose to group themselves as "Asian" against the backdrop of racial issues in America, rather than Chinese etc.
Seems like there's a few bitter guys ITT. Their "IN" was taken by Flynn and they've got nothing to back it up.
It seems thats what Zefah expects of this thread. Just everyone to post "fuck those asian guys" over and over. He refuses to comprehend anything more
One thing that I think is very telling is that when we're focusing on WMAF, it's all about harassment by Asian men with the women being the object. Yet, when it comes to AMWF, both people are the objects of the harassment.
This is a HUGE blindspot of Ng's, but no, it's all about feeding the narrative about how (all) Asian males are salty and jealous. Shit is transparent as fuck.
This is a HUGE blindspot of Ng's, but no, it's all about feeding the narrative about how (all) Asian males are salty and jealous. Shit is transparent as fuck.
It's just weird cause like, I'm pretty sure we are all in the "fuck you if you harass women" camp regardless.
Like I don't see why we need 20 pages of that when there is a whole article and further culture that needs to be discussed in order to find ways to combat this.
Like is dude just afraid of an honest discussion?
I can't skim through the whole thread at the moment, but I remember at least 1 or 2 white guys on here saying they were harassed. One member here even said they look at EVERY WMAF couple with suspicion, which whether they know it or not they are probably displaying this attitude in public with any interactions they have with aforementioned couples. White guys seem to be harassed more for interracial relationships in a country where they aren't the majority but the person they are with is.
No, it's "fuck those guys doing the harassment." I keep saying it over and over again, but it's suspect as hell that your and other's reaction to a woman being harassed is to try to find fault in her and talk about how we can improve the situation for the people that have been forced to harass her. It's shitty behavior and tends to lead to bans in other threads.
Zen actually posted a thread about "the deeper roots of internalized racism in Asian Americans" free from the context of the author in the OP getting harassed.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/the-deeper-roots-of-internalized-racism-in-asian-americans.74699/
It's got a whopping 15 posts. Seems like a lot of you don't want to talk about this issue much unless you can use it to lash out against women.
An honest discussion is not one in which people respond to harassment with outreach to the perpetrators. Click the link above to the thread started by Zen for an honest discussion.
There has been a ton of good discussion in this thread. You can't seriously position the few people who are sympathizing with the harassers (which I think is dumb) with everything else discussed here. That's a disingenous take.
The other thread is great but you're being reductionist by positioning that thread as the only place to have disucssion.
Zefah, I really can't agree with your stance. Nobody wants to lash out against women, they are looking at Celeste's public comments in context to the situation. I created a thread for the Plan A article to give it more exposure, it's subject matter is about exactly what I said above and it's relation to the Asian American identity struggle under systemic racism. It would have been buried in this thread otherwise and I think it makes a good argument for the state of the sociopolitical climate in the Asian American community at large. It's all related. The systemic cause of this is the same that Feminism, LGBTQ activists, and BLM and all people of color face.
I'm fairly certain there was literally only 2 posters that sympathized with the harassers.
Oh, piss off with that bullshit!
We posted in that thread. You guys didn't show up.
We knew you wouldn't even bother.
I didn't even know that thread existed until now. A thread on era with low posts is not proof of anything. What kind of weak ass strawman is that?
Honest question, what exactly do you want?
That people stop talking about the underlying problems? Or that perhaps the only thing to be talked about how those people are scum?
Several users already tried to explain to you why they want deeper than normally these kind of thread discussion go. No one (at least from what i saw) is saying those people are not scum because let's be honest, no one should harass woman (/anyone).
So again, i'm really interested in what you want out of this thread because this round and round discussion doesn't really go anywhere.
I'm really just responding to posts that catch my eye, so it's not like I have some kind of overarching agenda or goal for this thread (which I did not start, by the way).
If I had to boil it down, I guess what I want is for this to be treated the same as other instances of harassment against women in that we all not just denounce the actions, but the validity of the reasoning and justifications that the perpetrators use. There will never be a valid justification for harassment or having a sense of entitlement to women that just happen to belong to your racial group or social group or whatever other loose connection the man happens to feel he has with said woman. No man should be bothered by a woman's dating preferences or the kind of people she is attracted to just like no woman should have the right to dictate what kind of people it is acceptable for men to form relationships with. Similarly, I believe that no one should feel obligated in this country to "stick with their own" loosely defined racial group and that's the kind of sentiment I am seeing expressed over an over again in here.
Exploring the underlying issues of emasculation of Asian men or the hypersexualization of Asian women and how racism affects both of those things is absolutely worth doing, but to do that in the context of a thread about harassment is just shifting the focus of the discussion from the victim to the victimizers and showing sympathy for them. It's nice to type out "no one should harass women," but it rings hollow if in the next sentence you're talking about the causes for disgruntlement among Asian men in America or as another poster put it, saying "she started it."
First off thank you for responding Zefah.
I agree with everything your saying here. Also this country being the US?
Here's the thing where i see why there's problems/discussions with you and other people and i actually now understand where you are coming from.
Here's the thing though, i understand we live in crappy times where there are far too many problems and we are looking at those things with very dark glasses.
But sometimes, and yes its difficult to see/hear, those things shouldn't be seen that dark. Sometimes things are just like they seem, wanting a honest discussion. Now is there a time for it, sure. But this kind of thing is happening for a very long time and this thread is pretty big compared to the other one. So its easier to use this thread and bring a more of a global attention to it. Most people don't really seem to think it is a problem with what's happening, otherwise the other thread would also be big.
Do i know what it's like, no. I'm not "asian american" (also not american, but i am brown so i can sort of understand where frustration can come from of not having a place to discuss it honestly) so i don't have first hand experience in it. I can only read about it.
Thank you for explaining it to me and i have no judgment if your wrong/stuborn or not. I just wanted to know your stand on being against, what i saw, you against the rest.
I understand, i did not want to come off as if you are the problem, just that i didn't really understand what you wanted.
I agree with everything your saying here. Also this country being the US?
Here's the thing where i see why there's problems/discussions with you and other people and i actually now understand where you are coming from.
Here's the thing though, i understand we live in crappy times where there are far too many problems and we are looking at those things with very dark glasses.
But sometimes, and yes its difficult to see/hear, those things shouldn't be seen that dark. Sometimes things are just like they seem, wanting a honest discussion. Now is there a time for it, sure. But this kind of thing is happening for a very long time and this thread is pretty big compared to the other one. So its easier to use this thread and bring a more of a global attention to it. Most people don't really seem to think it is a problem with what's happening, otherwise the other thread would also be big.
Do i know what it's like, no. I'm not "asian american" (also not american, but i am brown so i can sort of understand where frustration can come from of not having a place to discuss it honestly) so i don't have first hand experience in it. I can only read about it.
Thank you for explaining it to me and i have no judgment if your wrong/stuborn or not. I just wanted to know your stand on being against, what i saw, you against the rest.
Why is Asia always generalized to mean East Asia in the West? With all other Asian countries there is a specification, but with Asian, East Asian is the assumed meaning?
Because outside of some parts of the coasts, Asian Americans are so spread out that the numbers aren't big enough without putting everything under one umbrella. Of course there are debates over whether it helps or hurts to do that.
So in what context can we talk about the deeper issues after sympathizing with the women? And no I don't think moving the discussion to an entirely different thread is that much more productive seeing as most of the discussion is here and the links being made. Like another poster said, allowing only a shallow stance is being reductionist. Then there is no point for any type of discussion then.
Zefan doesn't want to discuss any deeper, he could easily bring the discussion into the other thread but he doesn't want to, he just wants posts in this thread. He just wants to say ".... fuck those guys"
I mean I'm not trying to put it on everyone I'm literally saying what her Asian mother did to me :(
Is there actual data that show a significant portion of Asian women flocking to white men- and to put it bluntly, more than other racial groupings that don't ALSO then spring up toxic internet communities designed to tear down women?
Racism is shitty everywhere, abuse of women is shitty everywhere... this feels like a group of people online who are twisting a stereotype to justify sexist abuse of women. The other thread on this topic shows the statistics don't support it in a large way.
When people say Europe, are you thinking about Germany, France, and the Netherlands or Slovakia, Azerbaijan, and Kazakhstan?
At a certain point India started to just be called by itself instead of the continent.
How so? Would it be sexist to point out incel communities are a problem with males?
I'm not quite sure what you are asking but It's the difference between British and American English. Maybe because of the UK's history with India, it is generally referred to as Asia in the U.K. alongside neighboring countries such as Pakistan whereas in American English it typically describes China, Korea and Japan maybe because of America's history with Japan, specifically Matthew Perry's expedition.
Therefore I imagine back home when Brits talked about foreign business they referred to India while Americans were referring to Japan and this has persisted throughout the ages.
It is fair to say that the formation of these toxic incel communities are of a concern for Asian-American men, just as a lot of Asians in this thread are saying that self-internalized racism are a concern for Asian-American women. We can say this because irrespective of actual numbers, we have here examples of both phenomena.
It is not acceptable to allege that Asian-American men are more prone to these incel communities than men of any other race, and use that as justification for racist views. Firstly, you lack evidence for such a claim. Secondly, if it truly were something that mattered to women, you'd have women of all colors flocking away from white men because incels tend to be white!
As the other poster said before, it is ludicrous that minority men should be held to standards that you as a white man are not beholden to!
The opposite is probably true in that Asians tend to have a better family network support and not go looking into toxic communities that have their biases confirmed.
Im not saying they are more prone. I'm just wondering why this community in particular has sprung up as some sort of weird ethnic spin off of incel culture and is now racially harassing women. There is evidence of that. Now as for numbers that's what I was wondering- but I'd presume the numbers are as vague as the ones this community of abusers use to justify why "Asian women" are turning against them.
Also I don't get why I'm not beholden to these standards. I don't think Asian men are like these stereotypes I don't think Asian women conform to them either and I respect women. I'm also white but I do my best to make sure my privilege isn't getting in the way of common sense here.