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When is a swastika not a swastika, but a swastika?

haziq

haziq

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,662
So, I came across this in my Twitter notifications, for some reason. I don't follow J-Pop or K-Pop, so Idk why this would be in my notifications, but whatever.


View: https://twitter.com/CHAESEULGl/status/1638150018472243201?t=WeESgQEmSOFzEDiMJzQ5zg&s=19

When I shared this in a Discord I'm a member of, I immediately got responses that the girl in this picture:

A) Probably has no idea what a swastika is.
B) Probably meant it in the Buddhist sense.

It's coming off as one of those quantum-locked scenarios here, but if my understanding is correct, the difference between the Buddhist swastika & the Nazi swastika is the orientation. Buddhist symbol is vertically & horizontally aligned to form a cross at the center point, while the Nazi symbol is tilted & makes more of an X shape.

Am I wrong here?
 
AlgusUnderdunk

AlgusUnderdunk

Member
Dec 30, 2020
15,309
Do bear in mind that the swastika symbol has been an Asian symbol for CENTURIES milennia, and like everything, the Nazis stole it because they were unoriginal fuckheads.

It's sort of like how Russia decided to use the letter Z for their garbage but we still use it in our regular alphabet.

Although the one on the shirt in that image appears to be going in the wrong direction, making it the Nazi symbol.

By the bye, an easier way to tell: The Buddhist version is typically always in a square orientation, the Nazi one, like the one depicted there, is in diamond orientation.
 

Titanpaul

Member
Jan 2, 2019
5,008
It's not.
It's like the Hitler stache.
You can't take it back or redefine it.
The association is too strong.
 
Ahti

Ahti

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Nov 6, 2017
9,229
That's Sid Vicious on that shirt btw.

Siid.jpg
 
Sai

Sai

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,635
Chicago
when you're posting and posing for social media, it doesn't really matter.
 
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,095
For the swastika in the picture, it's being worn by Sid Vicious from the Sex Pistols. A quick googling says he wore it for little other reason than to be an asshole that upsets people.

The whole thing about worrying about Asians using the swastika is kind of a frustrating topic because it's essentially on Asians to show responsibility for how whites used the symbol that they stole. It is only what the whites do that matters and everyone else has to fall in line in service of that.
 
zeher

zeher

Member
Mar 20, 2019
324
Titanpaul said:
It's not.
It's like the Hitler stache.
You can't take it back or redefine it.
The association is too strong.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Can't speak to other Asian countries but it's still widely used in India as a religious symbol. No taking back or redefining necessary in that context, it's just representative of what it always has been.
 
collige

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
IIRC the last thread on this subject got locked.

My understanding is that the angle of the symbol is a big part of what makes the Nazi version the Nazi version, but there's also the orientation (the Nazi one always has the ends pointing clockwise), the red+white+black color scheme with it on top of a circle, and generally using it as a branded logo.

The fact that it's on a t-shirt that seems worn by a black Sid Vicious (???) makes me think this is more likely to be ignorantly aping Nazi aesthetics like many other punks in the West have done historically rather than using it in the Buddhist or Hindu context.
 
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The Albatross

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,055
I don't buy it that an international celebrity or star wouldn't know the context of a swastika. Like, your average person? Who knows, I don't know enough about religious symbols in the country where that person is from to know what the average person might associate something with.

But if you're a celebrity or a super star who has a big following, you either need to know what these symbols mean... and like a swastika is the most nefarious of all symbols over the last 80 years, or you have to take some more responsibility for your marketing photos. If you're a famous person with a big reach there's a burden of responsibility to know what things are, especially massively prolific ones like that. I dunno if this person is a K-Pop star or J-Pop OP isn't sure, but like, you have to have some basic understanding of history and it's not like this is just "European history" or something. Japan was allies with the Nazis, and Japan brutally ruled Korea for the first half of the 20th century into World War II, when Japan and the Nazis were defeated. This isn't ancient history or hidden knowledge.

And also it's Sid Vicious wearing a nazi shirt. You can't just wear that and be like "Oh, I thought this was the ancient buddhist symbol"

AlgusUnderdunk said:
Do bear in mind that the swastika symbol has been an Asian symbol for CENTURIES milennia, and like everything, the Nazis stole it because they were unoriginal fuckheads.

It's sort of like how Russia decided to use the letter Z for their garbage but we still use it in our regular alphabet.

Although the one on the shirt in that image appears to be going in the wrong direction, making it the Nazi symbol.

By the bye, an easier way to tell: The Buddhist version is typically always in a square orientation, the Nazi one, like the one depicted there, is in diamond orientation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

In the context of this t-shirt art, this is not representing the Asian symbol of whatever it means in different religions or cultures, it's a depiction of Sid Vicious wearing a Nazi t-shirt for shock value from the 1970s/80s, whenevr that was.

I figure the t-shirt as worn by this person is trying to shock people, in which case, I say, lame and dumb. not cute.
 
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cartoon_soldier

cartoon_soldier

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,644
The World
Important to realize there are a few differences between Nazi Swastika and the symbol that is hugely prevalent in India. You will find it on all our religious places, books, it's made on top of all books of accounting at our business too.

Biggest one being that the Swastika used in India has dots in each quadrant.

Something like this:
pphfN0d.png


And yea, that shirt is a Nazi Swastika.
 
Necromanti

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,551
The only real, sure-fire differentiator is the context it's found in. Swastika can come in many different forms and orientations. (Even Nazi ones. Not all Nazi uses of the swastika are rotated.)
 
wrowa

wrowa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,374
L Thammy said:
For the swastika in the picture, it's being worn by Sid Vicious from the Sex Pistols. A quick googling says he wore it for little other reason than to be an asshole that upsets people.

The whole thing about worrying about Asians using the swastika is kind of a frustrating topic because it's essentially on Asians to show responsibility for how whites used the symbol that they stole. It is only what the whites do that matters.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Dunno, I think it's mostly criticized in situations like this where it's used ignorantly in the Nazi sense (since for some reason fashion inspired by Nazi designs seems to pop up as "cool" every now and then). Sid Vicious wearing the Nazi swastika like an edgelord shithead was stupid back then and it's stupid today to put him wearing that outfit out of all things on a shirt. It reflects ignorance on what the symbol stands for, since in this context it's plain and simply not the Asian symbol.
 
AlgusUnderdunk

AlgusUnderdunk

Member
Dec 30, 2020
15,309
The Albatross said:
In the context of this t-shirt art, this is not representing the Asian symbol of whatever it means in different religions or cultures, it's a depiction of Sid Vicious wearing a Nazi t-shirt for shock value from the 1970s/80s, whenevr that was.

I figure the t-shirt as worn by this person is trying to shock people, in which case, I say, lame and dumb. not cute.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, it's a dumb-ass t-shirt.

If you really wanted to wear something Sid Vicious related to shock people, a safety-pin through the nose would do the trick.
 
OhSatan

OhSatan

Member
Mar 15, 2018
15,708
The Door to the Tenth Sub Level of Suicide
I mean it says Sid Vicious so you could assume it is from the Sex Pistols, a Punk band from the Punk movement that HATED NAZIS and kicked their asses out of their scene.

It is probably missing the classic circle with a bar to signifie NO but eh early punk used the nazi simbols as is.

Yeah some said it better is probably pure early shock value 'sup Joy Division...
 
Autumn

Autumn

Avenger
Apr 1, 2018
6,365
I'm going to assume the stylist and artist just didn't know what those symbols meant.
 
EndlessSummer

EndlessSummer

Member
Mar 21, 2022
3,638
Honestly, I can't hate on asians for using the symbol. I mean it's theirs and it was only used by the nazis for a short period of time and they basically ruined it for everyone.

EDIT : As for the t-shirt in the OP, yea, idk what to say about it. I just hope whoever that is didn't notice it.
 
cvbas

cvbas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,168
Brazil
She's obviously not wearing it as a Buddhist symbol, come on, but it's also true that the swastika doesn't have that strong of a meaning in Asian cultures.

The important bit of context is that the person in the shirt is Sex Pistol's Sid Vicious, who was not a Nazi but -- like many other members of the 70's punk scene -- wore the symbol for its shock value. So it's not like she's wearing a shirt with a picture of Hitler.
 
Älg

Älg

Banned
May 13, 2018
3,178
User Banned (1 Week): Drive-by trolling in a sensitive thread
god forbid women do anything🙄🙄🙄🙄
 
Powdered Egg

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
In the last thread we ruled only white viewpoints on the topic mattered. /s

In this case, this person is wearing a swastika because Sid Vicious is wearing a swastika.
 
The Albatross

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,055
googling, so she apologized, said she didn't know the symbol of a tilted swastika on sid viscious had to do with the Nazis.

Is the history of World War II not taught in South Korea? I understand that, like, Nazism I suppose is of more concern to the European theatre of the war, but, like the history of modern day Korea is directly tied to what happened during World War II. Japan -- the imperialists who brutally ruled Korea and were defeated on the Korean peninsula as a result of World War II thus leading to Korean independence -- was allied with the Nazis. The reason that Korean nationalists fled to Russia, China, and the United States during World War II to avoid execution by the Japanese was because of Japan's allegiance with the Nazis.

I'm fine with like your average person maybe not knowing something, yknow your average bloke maybe they don't know how some symbol has changed, but like a famous peson who has a big following and is dressed professionally for public relations things...?
 
BringBackSonics

BringBackSonics

Member
Oct 27, 2017
45,314
Seattle
The Albatross said:
googling, so she apologized, said she didn't know the symbol.

Is the history of World War II not taught in South Korea? I understand that, like, Nazism I suppose is of more concern to the European theatre of the war, but, like the history of modern day Korea is directly tied to what happened during World War II. Japan -- the imperialists who brutally ruled Korea and were defeated on the Korean penninsula as a result of World War II -- was allied with the Nazis.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Unfortunately History doesn't tend to be a emphasis in most schools. Math/Science/English are the big ones
 
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