Could also be the stylist is actual support of Trump for his anti-china stance, and that's all they care bout, being anti-china
Either thaty or they are picked on becaseu is a famous musician, the other, because it ahs us flag
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When is a swastika not a swastika, but a swastika?
- Thread starter haziq
- Start date
Could also be the stylist is actual support of Trump for his anti-china stance, and that's all they care bout, being anti-china
Either thaty or they are picked on becaseu is a famous musician, the other, because it ahs us flag
I'm korean, though I don't live in Korea, but most of the closest people around me did or currently do.
I kinda don't want to get roped into questioning whether she's a racist or not, because there's racists in South Korea just like there are anywhere, but it's extremely difficult not to sound like apologia when I say this: People in Asia do not see the world through the same lens you do, through the same historical framing you do. I think this doesn't get said enough because people project their own cultural biases to asian people all the fucking time, it's really weird.
That said, it's not impossible that she's some kind of weird racist, but I find it very unlikely. She's just a ditz pop idol who has her clothes chosen for her. I can say without any hint of doubt though that the people here saying that koreans don't understand that a swastika is bad are full of it. Korean people aren't idiots. They understand it's bad. Some just may not understand the exact nuance of exactly how bad it is, just like you probably don't understand what the rising sun flag means to me or my mom.
Honestly, it's not even the age thing. There are significantly more Hindus in the world than there are Europeans. Not even just white Europeans, I'm talking the entire continent of Europe. There are also significantly more Buddhists than there are US Americans, although the population of North America as a whole wins out.
South and East Asia are the most populous regions of the world and it's not even close. Asia as a whole has around 60% of the world population. Humanity as a whole is just not all that white, and if you exist in the white world, that may be something that you may forget - or, so help me, never realized in the first place.
So it strikes me that it takes a lot more effort, in terms of the amount of human minds who have to be changed and who have to change their behaviour, to stop the use of the swastika in Asia than it would for people in white countries to stop clinging to symbols stolen from other cultures. You have fewer white supremacists to go through than you'd have Hindus and Buddhists.
But to frame things that way, you'd be putting the onus on the whites for the symbols of white supremacy. Instead, if the white people do something bad with a symbol used by most of the world, than most of the world has to acquiesce. In fact, it is the rest of the world that are actually secret white supremacists if they don't.
I'm not even specifically talking about the K-pop star in the OP here. This is just something that constantly floats in my mind whenever we have this conversation. It just seems super weird to me that the whites have to be given control of history for a world much bigger than they are lest the white supremacists win.
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Agreed. Cultural values lend themselves to different gradients of perception. They are not, however, absolutely detached from international contexts. In this case it's kind of obvious QAnon is not infiltrating the KPop scene with a discreet advertising campaign -- but considering how global KPop is and the most popular groups, like Twice, are, particularly outside of Asia, the industry people (agents, stylists, managers, etc.) should know better about what cultural values/standards are like beyond said shores. 'Offensive' stuff in English are popular as embedding on some clothing for example so something like that can just be considered edgy/cool. But when on the world stage, there are more people to worry about hurting than ever before. Best you can hope for is that they learn their lesson, actually, instead of, cough, repeating it...
Unless they want to make a political statement of any sort, which, I'm pretty sure, is not the sort of waters they want to wade into.
If someone on the team is a genuine fan of white American radicals and neo-nazis, then, well.... we need to talk.
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setting everything else aside, what's with all the "her stylist" assumptions? How is that any different from any other celebrity?
All of this. No excuses regardless if the singer is from South Korea.
I think Sid Vicious bears a lot of responsibility too. If there's anyone in here who certainly should have known better, I'd say it was him.
Although thankfully that problem appears to have resolved itself some time ago.
Oops. Anyway, birds of a feather.
Well, I was mostly talking about the QAnon shirt, but that too.
KPop stars have very little autonomy, they are pretty much controlled by their managers 24/7.
Not defending anything, but weren't a bunch of shocking shirts that Sid Vicious wore designed by Vivianne Westwood? And a lot of the time it was to be shocking and piss off Thatcher supporting British people? Sid and viv were never Nazis they just wanted to cause chaos. Malcom Mclaren pushed a lot of this stuff to. Once again, not defending, not saying it was tasteful or smart. Just saying there is a little more context why he wore that. (besides being an idiot. Late 70s punk movements were wild times)
Why wouldn't she know what a swastika is, because she's Korean? Do they not educate kids on Nazi Germany over there or is more related to imperial Japan?
Also is that the same girl who wears Q-Anon shirts?
Also is that the same girl who wears Q-Anon shirts?
FYI, the swastika isn't exclusively an Asian symbol as commonly believed. In Scandinavia it's associated with Thor and has been found in the region well before the Vikings had contact with India: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika_(Germanic_Iron_Age)
The Nazis believed it to be the symbol of the Aryan race which spread throughout Europe and Asia, twisting the actual migrations of the western steppe herders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations
The Nazis believed it to be the symbol of the Aryan race which spread throughout Europe and Asia, twisting the actual migrations of the western steppe herders: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations
Her name is Chaeyoung from the idol group Twice
Shes a idol, not a star.
Idol image and private life are controlled by the company
She also went to idol school when young, so at best her education on history and other are a elemtary school level, and maybe if ahe know her own history
Why do people assume that Asian countries would learn much about Germany in WW2? Japan was the one that was wrecking shit, committing atrocities, and occupying countries in the east. If anything, they will learn about that in WW2 context.
I mean I am not American, but i think after two of these incidents it's kinda justified to not have much more benefit of the doubt left
Yeah I sadly am aware of the idol industry, especially the relationship aspect has shown up in some articles.
I just tend to lose goodwill with the second incident
OP
OP
Q? As in queer?
A lot of k-pop idols (J-pop too) are micromanaged to where they live, what they eat, dating life, etc. They don't choose their clothes for the most part.
A lot of k-pop idols (J-pop too) are micromanaged to where they live, what they eat, dating life, etc. They don't choose their clothes for the most part.
yeah it's been used basically everywhere
it's the same shit as like, the cool s, it's a distinct shape that's easy to draw
Not saying it's not deliberate after the Q top, but that's exactly the kind of ignorant punk attitude printed tee I'd expect to see in a shop in Japan or Korea.
Is this the group that person is in? Never heard of them until this thread and then I see a tweet saying they are coming to Toronto
View: https://twitter.com/ScotiabankArena/status/1638691395627261953?s=20
I would advise them to not wear any swastikas or Q Anon garb while in Toronto
View: https://twitter.com/ScotiabankArena/status/1638691395627261953?s=20
I would advise them to not wear any swastikas or Q Anon garb while in Toronto
Definitely not the swastika, everyone should know better in that regard.
But Q Anon? If I were to ask everyone what the two biggest political parties of South Korea were, 90% of people here aren't going to know without Googling.
Like others have said, it's just different.
Think about the most regulated and micromanaged celebrity in the West. Now multiply that by 3 for Korean and Japanese idols.
I love the music but the industries are no fucking joke, they're human farming machines.
You only get a tiny degree of freedom once you made it to the very top, but they're still controlling 90% of your life.
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Honestly would not think anything off the q shirt and the apology in vacuum, but following that up with a Swastika afterwards makes me side eye it.
You'd think the wardrobe would be watched more closely after having to apologize once.
Edit: I'll also add that I think it's fair to have different expectations of a star touring worldwide as opposed to the average person on the street.
That's the group their in, and it's not exactly a small idol group either.
When I visited SKorea it was not uncommon to find random English words and/or imagery on clothing as an 'aesthetic' so I can kinda see how this may have come about but still she, the stylists, managers and label (JYP) should know better given the group is also currently releasing music in English, touring in western countries and signed to a US label.
The amount of control these companies have over the idols has always been greatly exaggerated on online discussions. That Q top is definitely something given to her by a stylist, but that Sid Vicious shirt is mostly likely something she bought on her own. Chaeyoung has been an idol for 8 years now, that pretty much makes her a veteran in this industry. On top of that she is from one of the most successful groups ever. Her company is not controlling what she's wearing in private. She might be given something from a sponsor, but I doubt it in this case. Chaeyoung is just into that kind of style (punk, not nazi). Iirc, it was revealed a while ago that she was dating a tattoo artist. This is likely two cases of ignorance, one by her and one by her stylist.
This is actually a super wise take.
If it's just for some social media BS, there's no worthy debate there nor any benefit of the doubt necessary.
Is wearing Q Anon stuff a red flag? Outside of America I would 100% assume it's ironically making fun of it?
If the person picking the clothes knows enough to have it on said clothes, they probably aren't making fun of it. They might be doing it to get a rise out of people, but it's not like there aren't Q Anon nuts in Asia too. Symphony of the Night composer Michiru Yamane is a diehard believer in that bullshit, for example.
Yea, makes me do a double take when I see those shirts in public
Why would you assume that? Q Anon merch isn't sold just anywhere. You have to look for it.
This thread is making
Pretty big movie from Repo Man's Alex Cox about it. Sid and Nancy. Check it out. Or don't, I'm going to go turn to dust.
This thread is making me feel real old in that more than one person doesn't know Sid Vicious has been dead since 1979.
Still is.
Pretty big movie from Repo Man's Alex Cox about it. Sid and Nancy. Check it out. Or don't, I'm going to go turn to dust.
This reminds me of the Balenciaga drama but with people on the left.
Stylists don't think like this. They are looking for trendy stuff and probably thought this was a cool American/punk shirt. You can buy them on Amazon.
tell this to Asia... though the example in the OP is just a nazi symbol.
context matters, its use has a representation of the nazis can't be taken back but its use in Asia is totally fine.
To all the people asking if WW2 history is taught in Asian countries, it is taught. We just don't accept because that the Nazis used our symbols, it means we have to give up those symbols. The swastika is part of our cultural heritage and that's more important to us.
I can't really comment on this particular case. Sid Vicious isn't at all a Nazi from what I can gather.
I can't really comment on this particular case. Sid Vicious isn't at all a Nazi from what I can gather.
I mean, devil's advocate when ignoring the Q-Anon shirt, but the context here is not that the shirt inherently promotes Nazism, but instead idolises the Sex Pistols. And we can't divorce it from this context just because it has a swastika on it and take offense to assigned implications outside of that context. The dumbassery of wearing this shirt, and the dumbassery of the Sex Pistols doing so too, is a different (though entirely valid) conversation.
But the intention here seems to be more brandification of a punk aesthetic, amusingly and probably unintentionally ironic given it's from a band that was brandification of a punk, rather than an immediate statement of "I support Adolf Hitler and Nazism". In the same way that Sid wearing the shirt wasn't a statement of "I support Adolf Hitler and Nazism", even if the act itself still warrants scrutiny and conversation and the swastika in this context invites that context. Same as someone dressing up as a Nazi with a swastika for Halloween or costume party isn't necessary advocacy for or a statement in favour of Nazism, though still invites a dialogue on appropriateness and general dumbassery.
The Q-Anon shirt gives me pause, but again to play devil's advocate, I'm wary about critiquing anything KPop artists wear given how aggressively manufactured and controlled their lives and identities are. It's really unlike anything else out there, and the entire KPop industry would be better of collapsing in of itself.
On a mostly unrelated note but nevertheless fun anecdote, I worked with a client years ago who was an immigrant from Myanmar, and he showed up to an appointment once in a white nationalist Nazi shirt. Subtle enough that someone with limited history knowledge might mistake the swastika for its religious and cultural origins, but it was attached to a fucking Reich eagle. It was just straight up the Nazi Party eagle + swastika, and he had no idea. Fun conversation.
But the intention here seems to be more brandification of a punk aesthetic, amusingly and probably unintentionally ironic given it's from a band that was brandification of a punk, rather than an immediate statement of "I support Adolf Hitler and Nazism". In the same way that Sid wearing the shirt wasn't a statement of "I support Adolf Hitler and Nazism", even if the act itself still warrants scrutiny and conversation and the swastika in this context invites that context. Same as someone dressing up as a Nazi with a swastika for Halloween or costume party isn't necessary advocacy for or a statement in favour of Nazism, though still invites a dialogue on appropriateness and general dumbassery.
The Q-Anon shirt gives me pause, but again to play devil's advocate, I'm wary about critiquing anything KPop artists wear given how aggressively manufactured and controlled their lives and identities are. It's really unlike anything else out there, and the entire KPop industry would be better of collapsing in of itself.
On a mostly unrelated note but nevertheless fun anecdote, I worked with a client years ago who was an immigrant from Myanmar, and he showed up to an appointment once in a white nationalist Nazi shirt. Subtle enough that someone with limited history knowledge might mistake the swastika for its religious and cultural origins, but it was attached to a fucking Reich eagle. It was just straight up the Nazi Party eagle + swastika, and he had no idea. Fun conversation.
Well I'm on the left and thought the Balenciaga thing was very weird as well. The photographer it should be noted had 0 input or prior knowledge of that weird setup, that was all Balenciaga.
But yeah you don't find this stuff on Amazon by searching for punk merch. You only find it by searching for Q-Anon merch. I won't press this issue too much as it's very possible you're correct and this was just a case of not knowing what they were buying. But personally, I doubt that.
The "clearly she has no idea what the Nazi swastika and QAnon are and wore them BOTH back to back by sheer coincidence" takes have some big "JK Rowling is old and totally liking all of these TERF posts to bookmark them for ??? reasons and NOT because she's a TERF" energy.