What are the timestamps? They're not working on mobile unfortunately.
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White fragility and you: An important step in combating racism
- Thread starter RedMercury
- Start date
What are the timestamps? They're not working on mobile unfortunately.
Which society?
In the US, heck even the UK I'd agree. But different nations have tackled systemic racism in different ways, have done better or worse at tackling in built bias towards white men in particular. None have solved inequality by any means, but some grasp the nettle better and certainly have less issues with white fragility than others.
You're completely correct that western society is based on protecting their own, creating deep inequality of treatment of others. The solution is to make each generation of society reject this because at the end of the day, it hurts everyone. It hurts to be told that the scales are tipped in your favour but if you teach people from the start that it is worse to have the scales tipped in the first place and to think of those who that privilege hurts, it'll help.
Most people, when they think about it, will support fairness. When a society is deeply unfair, it's on everyone, especially those who are in the position of privilege to acknowledge this and try to rectify it.
Denial of this, and the backlash against being told the truth is the very definition of white fragility.
Really? In a situation like that I'd be very aware of who was defending me, and be one of the first to stamp on any alt right arguments used in my defence.
I've read Tim Wise's essays but I've never actually listened to his talks before. Powerful stuff.
Will do. Poster mentioned timestamps though. I misread the intention, didn't I? :D
I watched both videos and both were very educational to watch. Yes I have White Privilege here in Australia. I personally feel I don't have the full privilege of life due to being a low income earner, mental health issues that my country doesn't address well at all. Thou if I was coloured I would have necked myself years ago. I don't think I could live the lives of those who deal with all these issues that I don't think about.
Jesus Christ! This very thread has perfect examples of fragile ass people just clamming the fuck up and clutching their pearls at the lack of unconditional deference and absurd overcompensation for the white state of mind.
They don't bother watching the videos either. Just pure reactionary assery.
They don't bother watching the videos either. Just pure reactionary assery.
i try to do my part, for the good its worth, as a white person in conversations with friends and colleagues -- talking really does help. people, even very stubborn people, can have light bulb moments. some white people have literally never thought of, or at least meaningfully interrogated, racism as a system rather than an event. or what fairness for all means when you try to quantify opportunity. i liked the -ism framing Wise uses -- using "idea versus system" and comparing it to capitalism or socialism. it's an economic way of clarifying something that might meet resistance if improperly introduced.
White fragility- a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves.
WhiteEra: Can we call it something else? It's bothering white people making them uncomfortable.
How do you not see the fucking irony? Bloody hell, it's peak white fragility! When is Era gonna have a long, hard at itself?
WhiteEra: Can we call it something else? It's bothering white people making them uncomfortable.
How do you not see the fucking irony? Bloody hell, it's peak white fragility! When is Era gonna have a long, hard at itself?
You have gotten a lot of heat for this but to an extent I agree that left leaning activists often choose language that does not communicate the ideas they want to convey very well and then ironically get defensive when you point it out.
"Someone gets defensive when you call them fragile? You don't say!"
You can't coddle these people, I recpgnize that. There are too many who harbor bad ideas and hide them in bad faith arguments, but in turn the current technique threatens losing people to that side who do not understand tge arguments being made and will naturally gravitate to the side who makes them feel good and does not challenge them.
You just have to plant seeds, it's tough because people just hate all that "PC culture and SJWs!!" and I think a lot of people are simply completely ignorant about the facts. That Tim Wise video in particular where he talks about when his daughter asked him why the part of the inner city was mostly black people was really succinct and well said and I think that would really help people like that to hear that. Of course some people are just assholes and won't care but you do what you can.
I don't trust white people to have the self-awareness to combat their own racism.
History speaks for itself.
History speaks for itself.
Does anyone here know about Jane Elliot? She created the Blue Eye/Brown Eye experiment in the 1970s...? I believe. She's a total powerhouse and traveled the world for decades doing these social experiments.
Who is Jane Elliot?
She was an Iowa, USA 3rd Grade school teacher from the 1970s.
What is the Blue Eye/Brown Eye Experiment?
In 1970, her 3rd graders asked her why someone shot "the King", Martin Luther King Jr(1968)? She made the decision to teach these kids about racism. They were in fact the next generation:
Basically she treated the blue eyed kids great one day and the brown eyed kids poorly. Next day she flipped it: blue eyes = bad, brown eyes = good.
Please start at the 5:35 mark if you want to get to the good stuff...!
***Also, the students reunite 15 years later in 1985, and they're extremely well rounded adults. They watch the same video with commentary.***
Its 14 min long, but you can easily get the idea only a few minutes in. There's a part 2 I'll post later. She has more modern social experiments (1980s, 1990s, 2000s+), and many in Europe and Australia as well. She was even on Oprah Winfrey in the 1990s too.
Part 2:
Who is Jane Elliot?
She was an Iowa, USA 3rd Grade school teacher from the 1970s.
What is the Blue Eye/Brown Eye Experiment?
In 1970, her 3rd graders asked her why someone shot "the King", Martin Luther King Jr(1968)? She made the decision to teach these kids about racism. They were in fact the next generation:
Basically she treated the blue eyed kids great one day and the brown eyed kids poorly. Next day she flipped it: blue eyes = bad, brown eyes = good.
Please start at the 5:35 mark if you want to get to the good stuff...!
***Also, the students reunite 15 years later in 1985, and they're extremely well rounded adults. They watch the same video with commentary.***
Its 14 min long, but you can easily get the idea only a few minutes in. There's a part 2 I'll post later. She has more modern social experiments (1980s, 1990s, 2000s+), and many in Europe and Australia as well. She was even on Oprah Winfrey in the 1990s too.
Part 2:
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Yeah. Daryl Davis' personal sunken place is really something...
That "I understand oppression one" always gets me with some of the ridiculous examples I hear. Once sitting down to eat with some older activists and one lady in tears told her black peer that she is hurt that people don't think she understands what the other woman faces in America because when she was a kid she was bullied for having red hair.
While yes it sucks a lot to get bullied as a child. I don't think I could put 8 years of bullying on par with 70 plus years as a black woman im America that also includes bullying. And as I've had to do when put in these situations, forced to either politely accept what they said and thank them for sharing or dealing with further tears and hurt feelings when you tell them the two aren't really comparable.
While yes it sucks a lot to get bullied as a child. I don't think I could put 8 years of bullying on par with 70 plus years as a black woman im America that also includes bullying. And as I've had to do when put in these situations, forced to either politely accept what they said and thank them for sharing or dealing with further tears and hurt feelings when you tell them the two aren't really comparable.
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OP
Person of colour here, I live in Denmark. I commend you for trying, but unfortunately it is mostly an uphill battle, especially if you're trying to initiate the topic as a non-white. I am usually regarded as the aggressive, confrontational brown person, it's as if white people have convinced themselves that being told that their words or actions are racist, is even worse than the racism they perpetuate. Even the white people that aren't actively engaging in the conversation a very visibly uncomfortable. White fragility is very real and harmful as fuck.
I feel he exists now only for white people to lie about who he is and parade him around as their shining beacon of how it's supposed to be done.
Don't be angry, don't push, be Daryl.
I can fully recognise these sentiments or variations of them from conversations with white used-to-be friends, white school mates and white colleagues, genuinely terrifying.
They have referred to it as cultural awareness and have gotten push back in the past. I remember that being used when I was a kid and listening to lots of "well they already have MLK day and black history month," "why are you segregating yourself why don't you just refer to yourself as American, I don't call myself Caucasian American." Or when talking about the importance of representation and falling back on the colorblind trope. These are reasons why the fragility term exists in the first place because the most benign phrasing can and has been used to produce the same result. It's presenting it as if POC should know not to phrase it in a harsh way and people would be onboard ignoring the fact that many of us can attest to the fact that no they will not. Racism isn't logical and treating it as if it can be exorcised from someone through logic without them being receptive is misguided.
Yes. And the sad thing is this is the only context in which I hear Daryl mentioned. By actual scholars doing anthropological work to understand white supremacy? Nope. Activists? Nope. Black people? Hell no.
He's been purely used as a tool by white racists to quell any discussion of challenging white supremacy in a way that would make white people even the slightest bit uncomfortable.
Why can't you all be like that good negro over there?
Just finished watching this and holy shit, she's spot-on. Those slides were some deja vu. It gave me stuff to personally reflect on as well.
I encourage every white poster coming into this thread, especially the ones complaining about the term, to watch the videos being shared here before commenting.
Say it with your chest. People tell on themselves so hard when invoking him
Yep and it's transparent as hell, shit I've had to debunk him here like gotta be nearing a double digits amount of times
I didn't know who he was until a few years ago, at least by name. Is it a coincidence or no that uncle ruckus bears a resemblance?
OP
OP
That chart is very spot-on from what I've experienced as well
You can see some of them in the thread. Its pretty interesting.
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I feel like I can point to 3 instances of Fragility on a National level. I was alive for 2 of them
Racists and the KKK came and burned Greenwood simply because it was a thriving Black Community.
Obamas comments on Trayvonn. Pissed off a good portion of White America. I still don't even know why though? Because he had the audacity to talk about a Black teenager?
Broke them completely. A guy on one knee.... silent.
The first one was great, watched the whole thing. He basically nails everything, especially the black lives matter stuff. Of course white lives matter too, but if you're white you already know that because you never really had to doubt your worth because of your skin color. Powerful stuff.
Same with the kneeling. Trump has basically said over and over again that America sucks but it only becomes a problem when a black/brown person says it.
Also loved the stuff about the rich whites using the poor ones. I always thought it was funny that fools are following Trump when they have more in common with the minorities that they hate instead of him. The greedy fucks like him are who we should all be turning against.
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Here's the keeping it real reason: Because they wanted to be seen as "enlightened" by voting FOR a black man, but when a black talks about his experiences with racism and how he could empathize with Trayvon, they didn't want to be reminded of Obama's blackness. They wanted to remain colorblind.You can see some of them in the thread. Its pretty interesting.
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I feel like I can point to 3 instances of Fragility on a National level. I was alive for 2 of them
Racists and the KKK came and burned Greenwood simply because it was a thriving Black Community.
Obamas comments on Trayvonn. Pissed off a good portion of White America. I still don't even know why though? Because he had the audacity to talk about a Black teenager?
Broke them completely. A guy on one knee.... silent.
It's them saying "I voted/supported you IN SPITE of you being black, not because I truly wanted to elevate your experience."
That feeling of humility and vulnerability is what allows someone to look at a situation, assess it, ask the person you wronged to help you assess it, and grow. Her walking through that process should be extremely helpful for those that decide to listen and give it a chance. She has done the work herself, internally so you can see she's real and that she cares. Even her bits about the racial stress that people of color carry around daily--mostly due to walking on eggshells to protect egos is a very intuitive observation on her end, I am sure she has talked to PoC to gather a lot of her info and their perspective. That narrative flip that happens where I feel like the attacker or aggressor for trying to address race is something I have felt all to often in my life. That vid is definitely going in the folder, too much gold not to reference.
I've dabbled in the Jane Elliot videos before, she was probably one of the first people to expose this before it got a name lol.
Its such a good video because its so recent. So Tim gets include all the current day shit thats going on into his speech. Its a really great video that makes its so simple. I don't know how Tim does it, to put it so matter of fact.
Man, if people were capable of doing this, we wouldn't be dealing with half the issues we face in this country. Thats what makes all of this so sad.
That was a good explanation. I really never understood why. Why get mad about the President talking about a situation? Its nowhere close to how Clown makes everything about him and funny enough, no issues there with 40% of the country.
I've seen the video years ago before, as well as her other videos. My respect for her is endless.
A relevant tidbit, I'm in the military and I'm Black, so her methods have remnants of bootcamp tactics which I'm really into. Also, the race thing.
That was a really good watch, thanks for posting that. Edit: Just watched the Tim Vine video above too, grand stuff.
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I hear that. "Trump won beacuse [insert leftist pricipal or tactic]." That exact sentence just keeps popping up non stop. People propose it like it's a unique fresh take idea. They're on a loop here.
Finally got around to watching and was pleasantly surprised to see this done at the college I attended. Great watch and informative but unless you're strapping the people down that need to watch this I don't see them watching it beyond the first thing that makes them uncomfortable.
It's especially frustrating in this context because it's exactly the same rationale underlying white fragility: "this can't possibly be my fault in anyway"I hear that. "Trump won beacuse [insert leftist pricipal or tactic]." That exact sentence just keeps popping up non stop. People propose it like it's a unique fresh take idea. They're on a loop here.
Gaslighting on a scale of epic proportions. "The reason I'm abusing you is because you did x"
And it tends to be issued like a threat. "Hey, in the end, things aren't changing unless YOU OTHER FOLKS change FIRST, not us WHITE FOLKS (even though WE STARTED IT, WE HOLD THE POWER and DID the BAD SHIT TO MAKE YOU MAD AT US)! If you keep callin' a spade a spade, well, you just wait and see what's gonna happen! You aren't gonna like it!!"
Pisses me off.
Trump won because we just wont let Nazis steamroll us. Guise, let's just lay down and let the bigots run amuck. That's the ticket.
White fragility is such an interesting phrase. It's mere utterance seems to somehow lead to its direct manifestation.
This was excellent and I'm depressed in a way that it's got so few views. Academic Mark Hamill deserves way more (I realize the irony of my statement).