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entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,779
I've been seeing this discourse of late. People who want partnership but they opt out due to perceived notions of undesirablity.

I've even talked to friends who have lots going on but they pigeonhole themselves and just give up.

I don't think partnership is for everyone. If you enjoy single life, enjoy it. Nothing wrong with it. I'm talking about people that want something but give up based on mental blockers of desirability.

I'm a huge fan of therapy, but I know that's not accessible to everyone. Or some folks may have childhood trauma, body dysmorphia, etc.

Do you think it's due to the rise of apps? Or stuff like MCU bodies and things like that creating this extreme expectation?

This recent Pew Study came out and said that more young men (in their twenties) are single compared to young women. I'm sure the factors are multifactorial, but I do see this obsession with wanting to have six pack apps and an amazing job as qualifiers for even dating. Again, unrealistic goals.

thehill.com

Most young men are single. Most young women are not.

More than 60 percent of young men are single, nearly twice the rate of unattached young women, signaling a larger breakdown in the social, romantic and sexual life of the American male. Men i…
 

DarthWalden

Prophet of Truth
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
6,030
There was already a ton of insecurity when it comes to dating but the rise of social media in general has amplified that 10x.
 

Derbel McDillet

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 23, 2022
15,868
Dating app fickleness.

It's not impossible, but it'll certainly increase your odds.

I don't think people seriously think they need to have a six pack to attract someone, but I got some quarantine habits I'd like to undo before seriously trying again.
 

Solid SOAP

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 27, 2017
8,343
your mom's house
Picture of OP making this thread:

black-bearded-attractive-man-sitting-steps-using-computer-laptop-city_387894-357.jpg
 

Wrexis

Member
Nov 4, 2017
21,404
Social media seems to be an equal opportunity offender when it comes to body image.

The only thing women seem to be absurdly picky about physically in my experience is height. Not weight.
I genuinely don't think most men think they need a six pack to find a girlfriend.

But if people disagree and think it's that bad out there, please say so.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,639
Social media/social dating apps probably amplify this stuff because you are getting really surface level and superficial views of people, and really fucked up and unrealistic perspectives of people, but insecurities over looks and money don't seem to be anything new for people who are dating or trying to find a partner.
 

Rob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,097
SATX
I mean, I have no luck as it is. So I must have something wrong with me, eh? At least with seemingly looking attractive I might catch someone's eye.
 

Deleted member 93062

Account closed at user request
Banned
Mar 4, 2021
24,767
Might be a hot take but I think it's that back in the day men could get away with just providing a working class paycheck in a relationship, as women have kicked ass in college and careers, now men need to offer more and many aren't sure what that is so they default to "looks and extreme wealth." Things like social media don't help but I think overall it's more of a societal shift. Add on top of all that, the rise in "relationship" gurus like Tate that enforce the "looks and wealth" ideals and it just compounds to be a huge issue.
 

SasaBassa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,158
It's apps. Thankfully, there are plenty of cool people not using apps exclusively.

Also, men and women are far more chudly and childish on apps than I think is…productive online. You can't replace Getting to know people outside of that environment and makes you open to more things than the app checklist IMO
 

harry the spy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,110
The whole discourse around high value men and high value women in TikTok / YouTube shorts is incredibly creepy. Nothing wrong with wanting to 'improve' yourself a bit, but that level of obsession with a nearly metrizable notion of self worth is basically deranged.
 

RealTravisty

Member
Mar 29, 2018
1,169
If we're talking about young men, there are plenty of videos on YouTube where women are interviewed saying they want someone who makes a ton of money. A stupid amount, like 100k.

Men being the breadwinners despite the situation we are in won't die so easily.
 

WindUp

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,396
I don't think the subset of men who participate in discourse are representation of western men as a whole

There is a growing alienated group that feels like they have no chance at success that I suspect is mostly socialized online rather than in person
 

AgeEighty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,612
It's an attractively simple explanation to an issue that is much more complicated, just like so many other popular (and false) narratives these days.
 
OP
OP
entremet

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,779
The whole discourse around high value men and high value women in TikTok / YouTube shorts is incredibly creepy. Nothing wrong with wanting to 'improve' yourself a bit, but that level of obsession with a nearly metrizable notion of self worth is basically deranged.
I feel like a lot of dudes, especially young dudes are basically disqualifying themselves based on that nonsense.

It's a crazy obession with perfectionism. Having the perfect body, face, finances. It's mega unrealistic.
 

megamanofnumbers

▲ Legend ▲
Banned
Apr 28, 2022
3,190
Insecurity plays the strongest role in it. Better to get over it and appreciate just trying to survive life.
 
Oct 27, 2017
10,201
PIT
I think a lot of guys see those things as substitutes for actually working on oneself to become a more desirable and better partner.
 

Garp TXB

Member
Apr 1, 2020
6,329
I don't think it's much of a new belief with a lot of men, but perhaps dating apps have made it worse.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,176
Those features are are seen as shortcuts to someone giving them attention. Nevermind, that these people may be fakes or just plain not compatible with them, but matches are matches.

"Having a good personality" or "worked on yourself" is a lot harder.

EDIT: As a queer person, the importance of height in the Straight People's Dating World will always baffle me. Height has never crossed my mind as a defining criteria for evaluating a potential partner, casual or serious. Why is this a thing? Tall ladies exist and are awesome. Short kings exist and are awesome. Hard to imagine missing out on meeting someone and getting to know them because of this.
 
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prophetvx

Member
Nov 28, 2017
5,368
This isn't exactly a new thing, it's undoubtedly exacerbated by the pandemic and dating apps but it's pretty much always been the case.
 

captmcblack

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,102
The commoditization of everything and everyone is why. On an app you have to be quantifiably "the best" because your ability to compete for limited attention is based on how quickly and clearly you can convey your best/most valuable qualities to an artificially scarce supply of (the people you think you find the most attractive and valuable and want to date).
 

Bigg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,667
Do you think it's due to the rise of apps?
Yes, it's due to the rise of apps.

Online dating sucks so much for dudes, mainly because there's waaaaaaaaaaay more dudes on the apps than women. On top of that, all of the apps put a huge focus on looks and appearance and style over personality and hobbies. If you are not a photogenic person then you're already at a huge disadvantage compared to those who are. Even the apps that try to downplay the photo aspect like Hinge still put your photo first and foremost, and Bumble has gotten worse lately where it won't even show you the person's bio unless you scroll down similar to Tinder.

I genuinely don't think I'm an ugly person or anything, but I'm not "conventionally attractive" and I've never been very good at photos. I've seen some people recommend using apps like Photofeeler to find a good photo but I gave up on that when most of my photos came out to an average rating of like 4/10 with extremely unhelpful comments like "try smiling more naturally," whatever that means. It's very easy to get disheartened by that sort of thing.

I do think anyone can find success in online dating, but I think some people have to grind a lot more than others. But also, unless you get incredibly lucky and hit it off with a friend of a friend or something, there aren't really any other options and the online dating grind can get incredibly depressing and demotivating.
 
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Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,145
Most dating is done in bulk via apps and those are the 2 most immediately obvious things you can immediately figure out from anyone's profile. Those were obviously always highly desirable qualities and are much more desirable now when you can swipe through dozens or hundreds of potential suitors in a few days where up until the last 20 years you might not meet that many in your entire life.
 

NinjaScooter

Member
Oct 25, 2017
54,639
I feel like a lot of dudes, especially young dudes are basically disqualifying themselves based on that nonsense.

It's a crazy obession with perfectionism. Having the perfect body, face, finances. It's mega unrealistic.

the high value shit isn't done in good faith. Its just a mask for insecurity and often toxic masculinity.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,247
I'm not in the dating scene, but I think there's some solid numbers to backup that for men to be successful in the online shopping online dating realm, they have to bring everything to the table. Good looks, humor, projecting wealth, and be a unicorn. Scott Galloway on his various podcasts when he talks about this phenomenon has always thrown out some statistic that something like 70% 90% of women in online dating apps say that they're only winning to entertain 10% of male partners on the app, it's like the ultimate scarcity, so like 10% of men do reasonably well in online dating, 90% of men don't, and then as a result, it leads to dissatisfaction on both ends.

Sorry, he says ... if there are 50 women on an app and 50 men, 46 women are interested in 4 men, and en vironment where 10% of the men get 90% of the positive activity in the app, it ends up rewarding behavior that tends not to result in long term happiness. If one man who is very handsome, fit, and projects wealth can have positive results with an abundance of women, it's less likely that guy is going to want to build a meaningful relationship with one woman, and instead continue using the app as a hook up app to meet those needs. I don't think that this is a blame game either, like I don't think "90% of women are doing the wrong thing on dating apps," or that "10% of men are doing the wrong thing on dating apps," it's the natural result of how most dating apps were designed.

[edit: Going back to edit this post because while I've heard these numbers repeated a lot, I don't have any source for this original data, just something I've heard people say unchallenged. Someone shared a video on Page 6 of someone pushing back against different but similar numbers, but those numbers came from Jordan Peterson, the canadian conservative troll, and while I don't really associate the the liberal Scott Galloway with Peterson, without the data it's hard to say whether his numbers came from someone else parrotting Peterson or something, so adding this edit as a caveat. Still, while I don't know about the veracity of the numbers, my point is more to do with the loneliness epidemic, unhappiness with app based dating, and the commoditization of relationships, which I think has always been present to a degree but has accellerated quickly and is broader than just dating/sexual/romantic relationships]

The qualities that come through on app based dating are mostly looks and a small ability to project your personality. It's really hard to get aspects of your personality out there. When people were primarily meeting through school, work, and leisure, someone who might not be a 10 can compensate with something that makes him (or her) a lot more present to someone else. Back 15 years ago in the bar dating scene, this was scanning the crowd for someone who kinda fit your bill what you were into, looking at each other over and over again for the night, until one person goes over and makes a move, starts talking, starts dancing near the other person, and so on, and then some aspect of who you are can come out without it being a sterile shopping environment on an app. It;s also not just "the bar," but also ... church, class, work, social events, sports, volunteering, etc. "Showing up" and "putting yourself out there" was the primary hill to climb, and people who might not be the perfect match looks wise or ... ability to project success wise ... might do well for themselves on the dating scene just be showing up. It's different now, and app based dating or service based dating has commoditized dating in a way that it wasn't entirely commoditized before... dating/relationships have always aspects of being a commodity, but now it's much closer to shopping for the perfect toaster on Amazon than it was before.

I think online dating is disastrous for relationship building, like how online shopping was disastrous for local retail. Can you find the perfect toaster for $30 on Amazon? For sure. It's worth it as a consumer to do that. But does it put your local consumer appliance store out of business, which hurts your local community because there's now a scarcity of jobs? Yes, it does. A short term benefit creating a longer term problem, or simply an issue that we don't have the tools to solve anymore... The tools we try to solve problems with, these days, are more apps. What I think is really interesting is that a lot of the solutions being proposed in the app dating game, IMO, are mising the mark. The rise of Christian dating apps in the last 5 years is motivated by the idea that "Well there's just no good men on those other dating apps, they're only interested in one thing," or "Well no women like me on those other apps, they're all men hating feminists," and so you've had this growth in christian, conservative dating apps but those apps are going to see the same issue, because they're not solving the problem of treating relationship building like a commodity.
 
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krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,344
Gentrified Brooklyn
Social media/social dating apps probably amplify this stuff because you are getting really surface level and superficial views of people, and really fucked up and unrealistic perspectives of people, but insecurities over looks and money don't seem to be anything new for people who are dating or trying to find a partner.

This. On top of a beauty and beauty adjacent industries drooling at a growing market of male image insecurities.

LLC bro influencers to plastic surgeons.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,433
UK
With the rise of PUA communities online, inceldom, misogynist radicalisation, social media engagement for rage bait and complacency for outlandish behaviour, male beauty standards becoming more unrealistic, there hasn't been a equivalent rise in tackling those problems at as fast a pace. People are more insular through echo chambers that give them confirmation bias. There is much less incentive to go outside that chamber to test your beliefs. On top of all this is the patriarchy of men policing other men into such standards, denigrating importance of male mental health, and cults of belief. Much like a cult, creating self-fulfilling prophecies ("you don't ask a fish for advice on catching fish") and isolation from other viewpoints or people to get them out. When this is all online, it's much harder to pull out of compared to when you're in friend circles, work, outside hobbies, socialising, third places (you love that word!), and can't curate that echo chamber in the real world.
 

Henry Jones Jr

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
1,762
I mean dating apps and social media are not helping and it is a very complicated issue.

But they are right too. If you are conventionally attractive and/or wealthy , you will have success more easily I imagine.
 

lunarworks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,335
Toronto
If we're talking about young men, there are plenty of videos on YouTube where women are interviewed saying they want someone who makes a ton of money. A stupid amount, like 100k.

Men being the breadwinners despite the situation we are in won't die so easily.
Lots of shallow people out there. Social media gives them way too much exposure.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever™
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,606
Because they'd rather blame attractiveness & wealth rather than develop maturity, emotional intelligence, self-confidence, self-care, and a personality that isn't a collection of material things. Sure, attractiveness helps you get your foot into more dating doors, but if you're 1.) just like everybody else and 2.) boring, then yeah, your dating success will be low. It's got nothing to do with looks & money, though.
 

ragolliangatan

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Aug 31, 2019
4,550
Rise of social media and dating apps which put a prime focus on looks over substance. Insecurity also plays a part - but I also think it's an easy reason for people to fall back on if they are not being successful on the apps rather than look at more deep issues.
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
I've given up on ever finding a partner (nor have I've ever tried) but I don't know how people even bother with dating apps.
 

Cien

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,569
I'm gonna give the simple answer

Because they do. You are always going to have outliers, but it's pretty much an established norm.
 

Deleted member 9241

Oct 26, 2017
10,416
Simply put, because that is what is most important to them.
 
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JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,083
Honestly, I would say another factor that feeds into this is that the digital age also makes it easier to not engage in social excursions in one's own locality. Thus, especially for those who already struggle socially and are more easily able to find people who share their interests - and weed out those with whom they find discomfort - the number of opportunities to even meet someone, nevermind engage with them on a level that feelings of attraction can become apparent, are few. From that arises a pressure to be able to quickly, if not immediately, attract someone if a chance encounter arises, by way of surface level features - especially if those are the only thing you can see in a dating app - as a way of making up for that deficit of engagement.
 

Galkinator

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,028
Definitely due to dating apps.
Women swipe right on way less men than men swipe right on women.
An average looking woman has FAR more matches than an average looking man.
Basically, if you're not tall and handsome you're competing against 95% of other men on way less potential matches.

This leads to a very low number of matches, and thus dates. People can't stick to a failed system for that long.
 

DTC

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,590
I think it's simple. It's due to dating apps. I've found women to be a lot pickier on apps than in person and some studies have shown women to be very selective on online dating.

In person is a lot easier if you are social but not everyone else, and some people spend 60 hours a week working.
 
OP
OP
entremet

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,779
Because they'd rather blame attractiveness & wealth rather than develop maturity, emotional intelligence, self-confidence, self-care, and a personality that isn't a collection of material things. Sure, attractiveness helps you get your foot into more dating doors, but if you're 1.) just like everybody else and 2.) boring, then yeah, your dating success will be low. It's got nothing to do with looks & money, though.
Another thing I do notice is that many of these guys are obsessed with physical attractiveness of their prospective partners too!

Yes, you should be attracted. But the obsession with numerical ratings and "leagues" is outta control.

First, do you even like spending time with them? Do you things in common to even talk about. It's weird since they complain about shallowness in the dating game yet are also shallow themselves.

It's a very immature way of looking at dating/relationships.