Why do men of late feel they need to be super attractive and wealthy in the succeed in the dating scene?

Sho_Nuff82 · Mar 21, 2023

Being on a dating app while being convenientally attractive, tall, and with easily recognizable education/employment signifiers makes the swiping odds exponentially easier. As someone who's been on both sides of the fence (I've been tall since about the age of 21, but by all accounts I was a late bloomer and wasn't making beyond grad school wages until I was 32), I've seen firsthand how people treat you different.

Most people are going to swipe based on superficial markers, not after reading an essay, and women have (on average) *much* more interest than the average guy. So when people out there tell you they're not getting any matches, believe them.

There's also regional/national biases on race, religion, political persuasion that factor in. As a black man I matched with (relatively) more white women in BOS, more black women in ATL, more Asian women in SF. A buddy of mine was just telling me a story last week that expat white women in China will look for PoC partners, because white expat men tend to chase after Chinese women.

The sad part is that matching based solely on profile hits (oh wow, we both have PhDs and we both like GoT, what are the odds right?) doesn't remotely guarantee compatibility, which is why you read stories of the most desirable people on those apps dating for years with little to show for it than the odd hookup.

nonoriri · Mar 21, 2023

entremet said:
I had a female friend go over my profile and she gave me tons of productive feedback.

Made a huge difference.

I posted that and then immediately had the thought about how society has long had emphasis and expectation on AFAB people to present themselves as attractive, not only in looks, but dress, hair styling, even posture. But social media/dating apps is a place where cis men are suddenly subject to those expectations in a very acute way trying to meet with AFAB people, who are possibly more subconsciously critical about presentation due how they've been socialized around it.

entremet · Mar 21, 2023

Platy said:
the short reason is misoginy

it works like that:
In the "good old days" a woman needed a man to provide sex and money. But as time was passing, the "evil feminists" gave the women ways to pay for their own stuff with sins like jobs and ways to pleasure themselves withou the need of a men with sinfull things like vibrators and non heterosexuality. Now women needs a "partner" and someone to "talk" and have "emotions" and "share the house chores" since they both work and are humans and men are like "i don't want to help doing the dishes so i will go back to the good old days of dating", so the only way is winning way more than the women and being a chad sex machine to compensate for the lack of emotions

and that is why we have lots of misoginistic dating ideas and assholes in podcasts spewing misoginistic shit and lots of young men listening.

That's a good point there.

It does seem the content in the straight women space is more varied I noticed. Yeah, there is some strange stuff there too like the Reddit page.

While the straight men spaces push this Alpha thing a la Tate.

There's a gap for more progressive male dating and relationship content.

Kenai · Mar 21, 2023

Dating apps definitely exacerbate an already terrible issue. Height is almost certainly the biggest one (no pun intended) but everything from financials to skin tone isn't off the table. Combine that with a disproportionately high amount of people still living at home or with crippling student loan/cost of living debt and it's not surprising (and to be fair, if someone in a relationship is bad with money that can be a big issue, money issues are one of the three biggest relationship maker/breakers alongside religion and politics). Dating apps almost always target and signal boost a very certain type of attractiveness at the expense of everyone else (aka someone who'd be at home on "The Bachelor")

Derbel McDillet said:
Dating app fickleness.

It's not impossible, but it'll certainly increase your odds.

I don't think people seriously think they need to have a six pack to attract someone, but I got some quarantine habits I'd like to undo before seriously trying again.

It depends on the person, but people seem way more receptive to the "dad bod" than when I was growing up. I'm partial to a muscle gut myself. Always been a fan of bbw/m, dunno why it took so long to start becoming more attractive to more people. Not saying the LBGT+ community doesn't have their own issues with what is considered attractive (they are way too hung up on trading dick pics) but that at least does not seem to be a problem.

Lost Lemurian · Mar 21, 2023

Mezentine said:
No its not clear to me that that anecdote actually conveys what you're saying here. The claim that "being handsome makes it easier to meet partners" is not the same claim as "not being handsome is why its hard to meet partners". I'm just really having a hard time squaring this with my literal years of experience using Tinder, widely considered to be the app that's the worst for this. The reason why it took me a long time to get a girlfriend was because I was going on a lot of dates and discovering that there wasn't much chemistry there, which is just the process regardless of how its mediated, not because I was being "held back" by my lack of match throughput. Like, again, is the problem here that a lot of guys can't get two to three first dates a week? Who wants to do that??

So, besides my anecdote, we have actual data on this:

Bláthanna said:
It's 100% social media and dating apps, these apps always have a surplus of men compared to women which leads to some real fuckery. Women on dating apps have the privilege of being extremely picky which absolutely destroys the confidence of even the most average looking men. This phenomenon is almost exclusively on dating apps, in real life meetings men and women seem to have more equal standards, people really need to get the fuck off those apps, they're terrible for a lot of people's mental health.

But besides that, you literally just proved my point: you have to go on a lot of dates to find someone. Being more attractive helps you go on a lot of dates. Ergo, being attractive helps you find someone faster and more easily.

And, not to put too fine a point on it, but maybe you are attractive and thus your experience is not as typical as you believe it to be.

Thorn · Mar 21, 2023

GalvoAg said:
It's the apps, been out of the game until recently (was in a 12 year relationship) and at first it was pretty shitty. Got matches on tinder but a lot but girls just want dudes over 6 feet/100k while being pretty average themselves and worse/no job, would literally ask a couple questions in and that's pretty much a red flag for me to say peace.

Luckily Hinge has been much better, personally don't think people are as shallow on there. Have had some nice dates as I dip my toes back in the water.

Yeah I heard that if you're under 6 feet tall you may as well not even bother.

Thats why there are men legit undergoing horrible bone lengthening surgery to become taller.

NinjaScooter · Mar 21, 2023

prophetvx said:
Define "the past"... I grew up in the 90's and 00's, it was absolutely a problem then. The difference now is those insecurities are hidden behind a phone, instead of sitting in a corner of a club miserable and sinking too many drinks.

Yep dating has always been soul crushing and done a number on a person's personal insecurities. I think another factor is that nowadays there are no shortage of online grifters and personalities who make an entire living off of offering validation masked as "self improvement". Andrew Tate is obviously an extreme example but the kind of "women/men are the problem not you" (when often there is no problem, rather thats just how dating is sometimes) stuff is all over tiktok/IG/twitter.

Cien · Mar 21, 2023

Sho_Nuff82 said:
Being on a dating app while being convenientally attractive, tall, and with easily recognizable education/employment signifiers makes the swiping odds exponentially easier. As someone who's been on both sides of the fence (I've been tall since about the age of 21, but by all accounts I was a late bloomer and wasn't making beyond grad school wages until I was 32), I've seen firsthand how people treat you different.

Most people are going to swipe based on superficial markers, not after reading an essay, and women have (on average) *much* more interest than the average guy. So when people out there tell you they're not getting any matches, believe them.

There's also regional/national biases on race, religion, political persuasion that factor in. As a black man I matched with (relatively) more white women in BOS, more black women in ATL, more Asian women in SF. A buddy of mine was just telling me a story last week that expat white women in China will look for PoC partners, because white expat men tend to chase after Chinese women.

The sad part is that matching based solely on profile hits (oh wow, we both have PhDs and we both like GoT, what are the odds right?) doesn't remotely guarantee compatibility, which is why you read stories of the most desirable people on those apps dating for years with little to show for it than the odd hookup.

Thank you. The immediate responses dismissing people are pretty painful to read. And I know most see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

SageShinigami · Mar 21, 2023

entremet said:
So I'm not a statiscian here lol.

But they could be dating older men, other women, or yeah poly stuff. Idk. It's a big disparity.

Supposedly reading a little deeper into that article, the first two was exactly what it was apparently.

Dr. Mario · Mar 21, 2023

Don't think this has changed a lot over the thirty years that I've paid attention to dating. If anything if I see Gen Z guys with an ugly mustache being popular, it's now a lot easier than it was.

Yeona · Mar 21, 2023

I'm thinking it's not too dissimilar from the effects of objectification on women, but expresses differently because of social dynamics.

Men have been lied to by Hollywood for decades upon decades, injected with protagonist syndrome and shown lives and stories where the clever, attractive action hero always gets the girl. They were consistently convinced that if they just keep up the hustle, they too will eventually be the rocker-looking actor with all the women swooning over him. The sigma male.

It's a toxic relationship to success, whereas it's perceived not based on being able to accomplish the goals you set out for yourself, but rather the ability to achieve goals pre-set for you by society. Zero individuality.

It's a form of self-loathing, maybe even a sense of body dysmorphia. Everyone reasonably understands very few men will ever be as hot as uh I dunno Leonardo DiCaprio, but that reality becomes a yearning, because the way society's structured makes you feel that those things that are believed to be "success" never happen to people who don't look and act like Leonardo DiCaprio.

I think it's pretty clear that the term I'm trying to avoid using here is representation. But I think after laying it out like that, you can see that's what it is. It's a lack of reasonable, and realistic, non-toxic, non-cis, non-hypermasculine, non-hyperfamous, non-hypercompetent representation. But it's just my opinion, I think.

Mezentine · Mar 21, 2023

Lost Lemurian said:
But besides that, you literally just proved my point: you have to go on a lot of dates to find someone. Being more attractive helps you go on a lot of dates. Ergo, being attractive helps you find someone faster and more easily.

Okay then let me ask you directly: setting aside the number of matches your handsome friend gets, how many do you get? How many dates are you managing currently? How long have you been at it? If the answer is "once every few months and I've been looking for years" I am genuinely sorry because that's fucking frustrating and demoralizing, but unless I'm missing some data on that side of things, I don't think that's typical either. If it is "A few a month" then I just think that's a really reasonable rate and you are just in the process now. Between various relationships I've had that lasted from 3 months to almost 2 years I went stretches of six, eight, ten months without anything steady, but I was constantly meeting new people.

Bláthanna · Mar 21, 2023

Bigg said:
I mean I don't disagree but what are the alternatives? Speed dating? Hoping you meet someone at work or on your commute? This is something I've genuinely been struggling with. I can't stand online dating but I don't see much in the way of other options.

One day I googled "how to find a date offline" and it's all just the most awful cringe shit I've ever seen. For example:

Are you fucking shitting me? You're telling me I should go into a woman's clothing aisle and pretend I'm shopping for my nonexistent cousin!? I have zero social tact and even I know that's creepy as hell.

And yes, that's real, it's one of the first results on google for how to find a date offline:

24 Ways to Find a Date Offline

Tired and frustrated with online dating? Here are 24 things you can do in finding love offline.

www.dumblittleman.com

Yeah that is another part of the problem, I personally got lucky and met my wife at college so I really don't have any advice on how to meet people nowadays.

Derbel McDillet · Mar 21, 2023

Sho_Nuff82 said:
Being on a dating app while being convenientally attractive, tall, and with easily recognizable education/employment signifiers makes the swiping odds exponentially easier. As someone who's been on both sides of the fence (I've been tall since about the age of 21, but by all accounts I was a late bloomer and wasn't making beyond grad school wages until I was 32), I've seen firsthand how people treat you different.

Most people are going to swipe based on superficial markers, not after reading an essay, and women have (on average) *much* more interest than the average guy. So when people out there tell you they're not getting any matches, believe them.

There's also regional/national biases on race, religion, political persuasion that factor in. As a black man I matched with (relatively) more white women in BOS, more black women in ATL, more Asian women in SF. A buddy of mine was just telling me a story last week that expat white women in China will look for PoC partners, because white expat men tend to chase after Chinese women.

The sad part is that matching based solely on profile hits (oh wow, we both have PhDs and we both like GoT, what are the odds right?) doesn't remotely guarantee compatibility, which is why you read stories of the most desirable people on those apps dating for years with little to show for it than the odd hookup.

That nails it.

And even taking dating out of it. People are nicer to people they find attractive in whatever capacity in any environment.

Radd Redd · Mar 21, 2023

entremet said:
I feel like a lot of dudes, especially young dudes are basically disqualifying themselves based on that nonsense.

It's a crazy obession with perfectionism. Having the perfect body, face, finances. It's mega unrealistic.

Here's the thing. Younger women could date older wealthier men.

Pau · Mar 21, 2023

Women have been living with unrealistic standards for a while. We just have developed ways around them. Like putting in the work with make up and fashion.

nonoriri said:
I posted that and then immediately had the thought about how society has long had emphasis and expectation on AFAB people to present themselves as attractive, not only in looks, but dress, hair styling, even posture. But social media/dating apps is a place where cis men are suddenly subject to those expectations in a very acute way trying to meet with AFAB people, who are possibly more subconsciously critical about presentation due how they've been socialized around it.

Basically this. Imagine if women didn't try their hardest to follow conventional beauty standards in their images?

Gyro Zeppeli · Mar 21, 2023

I should acknowledge that I think I'm perceived as attractive, but I've never been one to take interest in dating. As I grow older though, companionship is nice. But, man, maybe it's because of depression and crushing loneliness, I also enjoy my own company more than companionship.

cubicle47b · Mar 21, 2023

Yeah, this is probably mostly because of dating apps/websites. They sound nice in theory. You can find people with matching beliefs/interests. In practice, it's incredibly demoralizing.

Cien · Mar 21, 2023

Mezentine said:
Okay then let me ask you directly: setting aside the number of matches your handsome friend gets, how many do you get? How many dates are you managing currently? How long have you been at it? If the answer is "once every few months and I've been looking for years" I am genuinely sorry because that's fucking frustrating and demoralizing, but unless I'm missing some data on that side of things, I don't think that's typical either. If it is "A few a month" then I just think that's a really reasonable rate and you are just in the process now. Between various relationships I've had that lasted from 3 months to almost 2 years I went stretches of six, eight, ten months without anything steady, but I was constantly meeting new people.

When I was in the dating pool, it was zero, over 5 years. Allow me to specify. ZERO.

As someone who is prob going back into the pool at my age, time has not done me any favors, what possible chance to I stand. So It sucks.

Shuckle · Mar 21, 2023

How can there be such a huge disparity of being single among men and women? Like 63% of men are single but only 34% of women? How does that work?

Magik · Mar 21, 2023

Because you need to stack the odds in your favour as much as possible as the dating scene is a war one.

Squarehard · Mar 21, 2023

Of late?

entremet · Mar 21, 2023

Shuckle said:
How can there be such a huge disparity of being single among men and women? Like 63% of men are single but only 34% of women? How does that work?

So it's not ALL single men and ALL single women. It's young single men and women--so in their twenties.

Magik said:
Because you need to stack the odds in your favour as much as possible as the dating scene is a war one.

I"m in NYC, so I know lol. It's a brutal place to date lol.

Normanski 2.0 · Mar 21, 2023

It's always been this way. Wealth is seen as status and power, able to provide etc…toxic masculinity BS basically.

Gunny T Highway · Mar 21, 2023

Because dating apps and social media have led to unrealistic expectations. It also applies to expectations people have for women. However historically even before the rise in our current technology being either attractive or wealthy or both has always been seen as desirable thing.

Skade · Mar 21, 2023

I solved the issue for myself by not partaking in dating anymore. Being in a couple, yeah, why not. But "dating" ? Fuck that.

Pretending to be someone i'm not and trying to decrypt the (often too subtle for me) coded message from a woman that is pretending to be someone she's not, in the hope of getting her into a bed ? Fuck that shit. It's a game i don't like, don't understand, and have no intention of ever playing again.

I just stay myself and if someone is interested by me for some reason, good. But better be crystal clear about it. If not, i won't notice and i don't care. Being single isn't a burden at all.

Lobster Roll · Mar 21, 2023

Skade said:
Pretending to be someone i'm not and trying to decrypt the (often too subtle for me) coded message from a woman that is pretending to be someone she's not, in the hope of getting her into a bed ? Fuck that shit. It's a game i don't like, don't understand, and have no intention of ever playing again.

Oh goodness.

Lost Lemurian · Mar 21, 2023

Mezentine said:
Okay then let me ask you directly: setting aside the number of matches your handsome friend gets, how many do you get? How many dates are you managing currently? How long have you been at it? If the answer is "once every few months and I've been looking for years" I am genuinely sorry because that's fucking frustrating and demoralizing, but unless I'm missing some data on that side of things, I don't think that's typical either. If it is "A few a month" then I just think that's a really reasonable rate and you are just in the process now. Between various relationships I've had that lasted from 3 months to almost 2 years I went stretches of six, eight, ten months without anything steady, but I was constantly meeting new people.

That's not what we're talking about here, but for the sake of the conversation, let's break down some personal stats.

I've been at this for roughly 10 weeks, and I get maybe a match or two per week, after leaving comments on 10 or more profiles every day. Of those, I've had 5 or 6 decent conversations that ultimately fizzled out, and none has materialized into a date.

To be frank, based on what I see other people saying here and elsewhere online, I think I'm actually performing relatively well. And I was never trying to complain that my own situation was hopeless.

What I am saying, and what I think is heavily, heavily supported by data, is that your performance on dating apps correlates directly with physical appearance. Which is the opposite of what the OP says.

icecream · Mar 21, 2023

NinjaScooter said:
I don't know how wide spread these issues you are describing actually are or if its one of those things that is amplified by articles and tweets treating it like the norm. Is there a toxicity around dating in certain circles that is made worse by modern culture/social media/dating app culture? Sure. But this idea that as a man its impossible to date unless you have a six pack or a six figure job seems like bullshit and to be honest I do also wonder how much of those kinds of narratives are gaining traction due to misogyny. The men who are angry because attractive women won't give them a chance based on certain criteria (look, money, height, whatever) certainly are also swiping left on women who they don't find desirable.

Your posts in this thread speak truth but is being ignored by the OP because they just want to make more threads about men being unsuccessful on dating apps to perpetuate the preconception and stigma of how horrible and unrealistic it is for "all men."

Shuckle · Mar 21, 2023

entremet said:
So it's not ALL single men and ALL single women. It's young single men and women--so in their twenties.

Would that imply women in their 20s are dating older men? Then you would see older women being more single right? Some guys are dating multiple women? Women dating women at twice the rate of men dating men? It just doesn't make sense to me. If these young men are not dating then who is dating all these women?

nolongerexists · Mar 21, 2023

It's not just dating either. Tall men are more likely to be hired and make more money than short men. When was the last time we had a big, round President of the USA? Used to happen all of the time. Then TV came along.

Sure, these things aren't really new, but technology is accelerating and amplifying them. They make the entire dating experience even more superficial than it already was to begin with.

If it's getting worse, it's because of the apps.

Skade · Mar 21, 2023

Lobster Roll said:
Oh goodness.

I didn't say i was correct, but that's the feeling i always got regarding all of this. As i said, i don't understand the concept of dating. But i'm fine with it.

entremet · Mar 21, 2023

icecream said:
Your posts in this thread speak truth but is being ignored by the OP because they just want to make more threads about men being unsuccessful on dating apps to perpetuate the preconception and stigma of how horrible and unrealistic it is for "all men."

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying there seems to a perception of people giving up dating based on these feedback loops.

It's a NOT a poor men thing. I literally cited out research from Pew.

My interest is why it is happening more and more. Unless your argument is that it was always been the same. The Pew data seems to refute that.

Not to mention the rise of the dating economy--apps, "coaches", matchmakers. Dating is literally commodified at this point.

We can have discussion about the current dating space productively, using real data without this being a gender wars things.

Thunder11 · Mar 21, 2023

icecream said:
Your posts in this thread speak truth but is being ignored by the OP because they just want to make more threads about men being unsuccessful on dating apps to perpetuate the preconception and stigma of how horrible and unrealistic it is for "all men."

To boil this down to a male problem and misogyny is overly reductive and flatly wrong.

Cien · Mar 21, 2023

Thunder11 said:
To boil this down to a male problem and misogyny is overly reductive and flatly wrong.

It's also highly insulting.

"Hey from a physical standpoint, I'm not exactly at the top"
"That's because you're a toxic misogynist"

Excuse me, but what?

KamenSenshi · Mar 21, 2023

Apps amplified what was already there but as someone else said, good looks and lots of money are tangible metrics whereas just saying good personality can vary person to person. Besides that, you'd need to have someone find you attractive anyway so they could find out you have a "good personality". Then there's the whole YouTuber set, reinforcing the money/looks=dates mind set, but, from most reports that actually seems to be correct for dating apps.

Takonx · Mar 21, 2023

My garbled thoughts

The ratio of men to women on the apps
Women are more selective both due to an abundance of choice and safety (haven't seen safety mentioned but heard too many dating horror stories)
A lot of men don't know what makes a good dating photo (a good photo, in general, might not mean it's a good dating photo)
Men don't seem to take photos generally so end up having a limited choice of photos to use
More men nowadays don't seem to be great at the IRL approach and now tend to use dating apps to avoid discomfort which tbh is probably best for both parties involved. I personally don't like the idea of approaching IRL and encounters that way have been based on women approaching first.
It seems like there's this growing segment of dating advice from so-called gurus reinforcing these ideas. I think the issue with a lot of them is that they mix genuinely practical advice with misogynist rhetoric. Men then apply the practical advice and get better results due to the way dating apps work reinforcing the rhetoric.
One more thing I think is worth mentioning and something I've seen play out countless times online is the level of attachment men have to their matches and how demoralising they find it when it doesn't turn into something like a date (or a second date etc). There seems to be this over-investment in the fact that they are having seemingly decent conversations online, especially if the conversation goes on for a long time. If the conversation ends with ghosting (which happens for several reasons) it always feels like the blow to esteem is far more than it should be. This can then lead to giving up

henhowc · Mar 21, 2023

(Online) dating can beat people's self-worth down.

Derbel McDillet · Mar 21, 2023

Shuckle said:
Would that imply women in their 20s are dating older men?

I mean, that's who my peers went after then. It's been 10 years since we graduated college and I'm still younger than the guys they introduced me to. With one friend, her guy had too much to drink when she introduced him to her parents at her grad party and he spent the night passed out and she was super embarrassed. I spent half the night thinking, THIS?! is the bar I can't clear.

The key is just not to be bitter.

Tuxedo38 · Mar 21, 2023

Mezentine said:
I mean, okay? He got a lot more matches than you. It was probably faster for him to get a lot of dates quickly. Did that degrade the quality of the matches you do get? Like maybe I just had a charmed experience or something but I was setting up 2-3 first dates a month and that was plenty for me, I never needed fifty matches at once

Not the OP, but just off of numbers, I would say it degrades the total number of quality matches. If there are three people and one person gets one match per hour, one gets one match per day, and the last gets one match per week. The first is certainly going to get more dates and that is at least going to lead to more potential to show their "value" (being their actual personality in a real life setting compared to just words on a screen) to a potential partner compared to the second. If that last person is only having successfully getting a date out of a match 10% of the time, that's less than one date every couple months.

Also I do think you probably had a decent profile and are a decent looking person. I consider myself reasonably attractive and having a solid personality and my experience was similar to yours. That said, I know people who have been on the apps that I'd consider attractive in terms of personality, but weren't as conventionally attractive physically and they were not getting many matches let alone actual worthwhile conversation to lead to a first date. I'm sure just hearing my difference in success compared to theirs wasn't exactly fun, I'm just alright in my opinion, let alone other people's stories and the bombardment that is social media. That's not good for anyone's self esteem.

mbpm · Mar 21, 2023

entremet said:
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying there seems to a perception of people giving up dating based on these feedback loops.

It's a poor men thing. I literally cited out research from Pew.

My interest is why it is happening more and more. Unless your argument is that it was always been the same. The Pew data seems to refute that.

It's availability maybe.

With dating apps you have a greater chance to strike it rich than ever but also a greater chance to strike out.

You hold your phone up as a mirror to the world and watch an increasing amount of time pass by as you get silence and you have two major ways to look at it.

A) It's based on looks. There's something wrong with how you look. You can try to change this. Maybe you succeed. If you fail you don't really know how bc obvs different people are looking for different things. Continued failure just means you're not the right person for this app. You accept it and quit.

B) it's not based on looks. There's something inherently wrong with you which you aren't sure exactly about. The whole world that can see you has judged you not worthy. You're not the right person for this app, maybe dating in general because you probably won't ever have as much feedback as you do in this app, you accept it and quit.

Kientin · Mar 21, 2023

As someone that's got a chronic illness and had low enough self esteem that it feels like I have hated myself half my life, it's made me numb to the prospects of ever getting into a relationship. I've had therapy and I'm in a much better state than I've ever been in my life. But I'm in my lower 30s, busy with work, hobbies, and goals, and still dealing with that numbness I felt towards relationships that it's hard to ever see myself even really attempting it. Even though I feel "open" to the idea of being in a relationship.

About a year ago, my brother set me up on a date. It was the first one I've been in, in over 10 years. It went well, I had a good time and I think she had a good time. We talked about doing it again. I just remember going back to the car and feeling nothing. We quickly drifted apart due to us being in different cities and also I just couldn't get myself to put the work in. So I kinda figure unless a miracle happens, I'm going to be single. But I'm also ok with that. I'm happy, making progress, and have been in the best mental state that I've felt like I've ever been in.

Chasex · Mar 21, 2023

The dating landscape is incredibly toxic. I think it gets sidelined or downplayed in a lot of progressive circles because it's interpreted as "red pill". Which btw I'm not condoning that space as it's the equally toxic response in the other direction. Except as with most topics today, there is some nugget of truth, which then gets taken to it's extreme by people online who then pollute the space. Like you don't have to be a women-hating incel to understand that dating apps are riddled with bad incentives that are bad for society writ large. It's easy to do some simple research into the statistics of Tinder and intuit why a man might feel they are being held to ridiculous standards.

Personally I stayed the hell out of the dating pool until I was in my early 30's. I knew I didn't have the looks or personality to compete with that top 10% of dudes who get most of the matches. I knew it was toxic and that being anxious and prone to depression it was only going to end poorly. So my strategy was to focus on myself, and my friendships, my hobbies, and my career, and if I slowly worked my way up the peak I might be able to compete, albeit a bit later than most. Fortunately many women are ok with dating older men.

Honestly I'm really happy with how that strategy played out. When I rejoined Tinder at 31 I got a handful of matches, went on 3 dates, and am engaged to the 3rd one. Basically zero drama or heartbreak. Yeah it sucked big time to see my friend pair off and get married and have children in my mid to late 20's, but I had steeled myself to that possibility going in. Side effect I have my life and career in order. Downside... basically "wasted" my 20's on purely self development which I fully understand is not guaranteed to work out. It's a risk.

Dervius · Mar 21, 2023

I liked F. D. Signifier's video on male desirability a lot. It's well worth the time to watch.

The numbers some are citing are pretty damning, but to a degree I feel like it's men doing this to ourselves as well, or at least mis-attributing the problem.

Women are apparently (according to some stats listed ITT) more selective than men when rating the attractiveness of the opposite sex. Men then look at ourselves and self-diagnose the problem as:

Not being physically fit / strong enough
Not being "masculine" enough
Not being (financially) successful enough
Not being X

But when you look at some of the protrayals of attractive men in media made by women, it's rarely just these traits being coveted.

We build a toxic self-image of what desirability is and hold ourselves and eachother to this unrealistic and damaging standard, even when women are telling us otherwise.

This is not to say it's black and white, women can absolutely hold unrealistic standards for men just as men can for women. But it's not women simply doing this to us; we're a victim of our own patriarchal system.

entremet · Mar 21, 2023

Chasex said:
The dating landscape is incredibly toxic. I think it gets sidelined or downplayed in a lot of progressive circles because it's interpreted as "red pill". Which btw I'm not condoning that space as it's the equally toxic response in the other direction. Except as with most topics today, there is some nugget of truth, which then gets taken to it's extreme by people online who then pollute the space. Like you don't have to be a women-hating incel to understand that dating apps are riddled with bad incentives that are bad for society writ large. It's easy to do some simple research into the statistics of Tinder and intuit why a man might feel they are being held to ridiculous standards.

Personally I stayed the hell out of the dating pool until I was in my early 30's. I knew I didn't have the looks or personality to compete with that top 10% of dudes who get most of the matches. I knew it was toxic and that being anxious and prone to depression it was only going to end poorly. So my strategy was to focus on myself, and my friendships, my hobbies, and my career, and if I slowly worked my way up the peak I might be able to compete, albeit a bit later than most. Fortunately many women are ok with dating older men.

Honestly I'm really happy with how that strategy played out. When I rejoined Tinder at 31 I got a handful of matches, went on 3 dates, and am engaged to the 3rd one. Basically zero drama or heartbreak. Yeah it sucked big time to see my friend pair off and get married and have children in my mid to late 20's, but I had steeled myself to that possibility going in. Side effect I have my life and career in order. Downside... basically "wasted" my 20's on purely self development which I fully understand is not guaranteed to work out. It's a risk.

Progressive spaces don't seem to do well with addressing men's issues. I get a big "cry moar' energy when any men's issues are brought up, from education to to mental health to career to dating.

Or it is seen as a see-saw. Where focus on specific men's issue seems to take away from BIPOC and LGBT spaces.

It's strange because there's a huge segment of men that have just gave on working and education. right now in the US. This a huge societal problem that is basically invisible in the mainstream.

ToddBonzalez · Mar 21, 2023

As many have said, its because of dating apps where 99% of what a potential partner judges you on is your appearance and the other 1% are equally superficial things.

Mezentine · Mar 21, 2023

Lost Lemurian said:
That's not what we're talking about here, but for the sake of the conversation, let's break down some personal stats.

I've been at this for roughly 10 weeks, and I get maybe a match or two per week, after leaving comments on 10 or more profiles every day. Of those, I've had 5 or 6 decent conversations that ultimately fizzled out, and none has materialized into a date.

To be frank, based on what I see other people saying here and elsewhere online, I think I'm actually performing relatively well. And I was never trying to complain that my own situation was hopeless.

What I am saying, and what I think is heavily, heavily supported by data, is that your performance on dating apps correlates directly with physical appearance. Which is the opposite of what the OP says.

Tuxedo38 said:
Not the OP, but just off of numbers, I would say it degrades the total number of quality matches. If there are three people and one person gets one match per hour, one gets one match per day, and the last gets one match per week. The first is certainly going to get more dates and that is at least going to lead to more potential to show their "value" (being their actual personality in a real life setting compared to just words on a screen) to a potential partner compared to the second. If that last person is only having successfully getting a date out of a match 10% of the time, that's less than one date every couple months.

Also I do think you probably had a decent profile and are a decent looking person. I consider myself reasonably attractive and having a solid personality and my experience was similar to yours. That said, I know people who have been on the apps that I'd consider attractive in terms of personality, but weren't as conventionally attractive physically and they were not getting many matches let alone actual worthwhile conversation to lead to a first date. I'm sure just hearing my difference in success compared to theirs wasn't exactly fun, I'm just alright in my opinion, let alone other people's stories and the bombardment that is social media. That's not good for anyone's self esteem.

I do apologize if I've come off as condescending in this conversation, and I don't mean to downplay that this can be a difficult and awkward process and that it always feels like it takes longer than you want it to. I guess I just...really also think that the bar for success cannot be the speed and volume of matches and dates that the most handsome people get. Its not just that its unrealistic, its that its also from my experience unnecessary. I'm sure it must be nice to have every second swipe you make match back, and it certainly would have made life easier, but also if this is a process you feel you need to hurry then I think you might be approaching dating for the wrong reasons. I'm worried that a lot of this anger and resentment that we're seeing among young men on this issue stems from a place of jealousy at how "easy" other guys have it, and even setting aside if that's true or not I just think that's a bad space to stew in emotionally for a lot of reasons.

Elfgore · Mar 21, 2023

Dating apps literally help nobody. I have over 20 people who like me on one, but welp, I didn't find them in the random algorithm. So, no communication with them.

Either way, only so long somebody can put in effort sending intro messages or even swiping right to nothing before they just fucking call it. I've done it twice before and shocker, I'll probably do it again.

Derbel McDillet · Mar 21, 2023

Chasex said:
The dating landscape is incredibly toxic. I think it gets sidelined or downplayed in a lot of progressive circles because it's interpreted as "red pill". Which btw I'm not condoning that space as it's the equally toxic response in the other direction. Except as with most topics today, there is some nugget of truth, which then gets taken to it's extreme by people online who then pollute the space. Like you don't have to be a women-hating incel to understand that dating apps are riddled with bad incentives that are bad for society writ large. It's easy to do some simple research into the statistics of Tinder and intuit why a man might feel they are being held to ridiculous standards.

Definitely agree with that.

I find myself trying way harder than necessary trying not to come off as whiny and more just matter a fact with my posts in this thread.

jdstorm · Mar 21, 2023

Bigg said:
Yes, it's due to the rise of apps.

Online dating sucks so much for dudes, mainly because there's waaaaaaaaaaay more dudes on the apps than women. On top of that, all of the apps put a huge focus on looks and appearance and style over personality and hobbies. If you are not a photogenic person then you're already at a huge disadvantage compared to those who are. Even the apps that try to downplay the photo aspect like Hinge still put your photo first and foremost, and Bumble has gotten worse lately where it won't even show you the person's bio unless you scroll down similar to Tinder.

I genuinely don't think I'm an ugly person or anything, but I'm not "conventionally attractive" and I've never been very good at photos. I've seen some people recommend using apps like Photofeeler to find a good photo but I gave up on that when most of my photos came out to an average rating of like 4/10 with extremely unhelpful comments like "try smiling more naturally," whatever that means. It's very easy to get disheartened by that sort of thing.

I do think anyone can find success in online dating, but I think some people have to grind a lot more than others. But also, unless you get incredibly lucky and hit it off with a friend of a friend or something, there aren't really any other options and the online dating grind can get incredibly depressing and demotivating.

Smiling more naturally probably means your pics look more like a hostage video then that you are genuinely happy/enjoying yourself.

….

I think people get discouraged via apps because they see attractive women and think a relationship with them is a prize to achieve/grind for, they over invest and take it personally when they get rejected. It's a toxic attitude to take into the apps.

Apps are just a message board and the best way to succeed is to build a life worth sharing, if you're not getting the attention you want focus on living your life, having fun experiences, learning new skills and remember to document that.

Why do men of late feel they need to be super attractive and wealthy in the succeed in the dating scene?

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